Fade balance tweaks
OmNomNom!
Join Date: 2010-11-25 Member: 75266Members
Join Date: 2010-11-25 Member: 75266Members
I feel that the fade is a little too easy to survive with in the majority of situations at the moment, in the hands of a good player you can get an obscene score and rarely die.
The damage doesn't really bother me but the ability to blink in lightning quick and kill then disappear just as quick needs looking at. I realise there is a small delay on the blink ability at the moment but I think this needs increasing. Possibly a long delay before you can re blink after combat so you have to be a little more tactical and plan your attacks a little (i.e once you have slashed you cannot immediately re-stealth, making you more of a target).
The other option would be to reduce their health a little but im not sure how this would affect balance vs turrets etc
The damage doesn't really bother me but the ability to blink in lightning quick and kill then disappear just as quick needs looking at. I realise there is a small delay on the blink ability at the moment but I think this needs increasing. Possibly a long delay before you can re blink after combat so you have to be a little more tactical and plan your attacks a little (i.e once you have slashed you cannot immediately re-stealth, making you more of a target).
The other option would be to reduce their health a little but im not sure how this would affect balance vs turrets etc
Comments
Fact is: we have the weakest fade ever in ns2 History now.
With the new ammount of hive - upgrade count mechanic, fade lose lots of his power.
You say: A skilled fade player nearly never die. Voila, you have your answer. Or do want to find a way to balance skill?
Really, i see fades dying like flies in the last versions. The problem isnt the fade, the problem are rines that cant aim/hit.
Two shotgunner can take down a fade very easy, if an flamer is involved the fade has to retreat or die.
Fade is ok as it is. Now its time for swalk and the fade-mod introduction again ;)
At 2 Hives you can only have 2 Ups (cara and frenzy) and this forces you to retreat to a hive/gorge instead of waiting around the corner for regen.
Each slash/swipe that does not hit can mean a fast death for Fades.
Also Reducing its HP is not ok, because the gorge has even more HP then as a Fade.
comp i5 4.4 ghz
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ati 6950
The game is already as you desire. The location of the fade is visible while he is blinking as an opaque purple cloud.
Since the Umbra update fades aren't 100% invisible. They carry the blackcloud/umbra/JP-Particels etc with them while blinking. It is easyier to track fades now.
Edit: should always read all post before quoting....
Cost of blink is slightly too expensive. The other problem comes from the speed stop when coming out of blink.
See my 1000 hours of work in paint for an example. This is why fade blink now feels so clunky compared to the old blink.
This also comes from the fact you now have to hold blink for the movement, but that was overpowered anyway and I'm not asking for that back.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ts9YG.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Give fades a SLIGHT movement boost when coming out of Blink to fix this.
But that requires the marine to stay in the exact x,y cord during that split second. I've never seen a JP marine do such a thing.
Having trouble killing jetpacks in Central Drilling? then get out of there and fight them somewhere else. Fades are still overpowered despite what people say.
Are you trying really hard to flamethrower/shotgun it and not fight it 1v1? The only time you SHOULD be able to fight it 1v1 is if you spend 50 pres on a jetpack + flamethrower - and guess what, that combination brutally demolishes fades for very little effort. Have you tried that?
It's supposed to be hard to fight jetpackers, just like it would be hard to fight lerks if all you had was the axe and rifle butt. That's their right for spending res on a jetpack. You have to focus on the weaknesses of the jetpack and exploit them (like the refueling time, the slow air acceleration and so on). I've been leaping at jetpackers as a skulk and destroying them...you can do all the same stuff people did in NS1 (except acid rockets, obviously) and the mechanics play out basically the same way.
Are you trying really hard to flamethrower/shotgun it and not fight it 1v1? The only time you SHOULD be able to fight it 1v1 is if you spend 50 pres on a jetpack + flamethrower - and guess what, that combination brutally demolishes fades for very little effort. Have you tried that?
It's supposed to be hard to fight jetpackers, just like it would be hard to fight lerks if all you had was the axe and rifle butt. That's their right for spending res on a jetpack. You have to focus on the weaknesses of the jetpack and exploit them (like the refueling time, the slow air acceleration and so on). I've been leaping at jetpackers as a skulk and destroying them...you can do all the same stuff people did in NS1 (except acid rockets, obviously) and the mechanics play out basically the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This points out a another really good problem. The Flamethrower should not do anywhere near the damage it does to certain aliens. It should be good for Lightweight aliens and VERY good for clearing out structures like the grenade launcher. This would encourage more teamplay and protection. (You know like how NS1 was with Shotguns and HMGs).
I don't know what swalk is doing, he's sleeping on the job !
So here is the fade mod :
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115631</a>
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ATI radeon 4850 512mb
4gb ddr3 ram 1600mhz 9/9/9/24/33 T1
1600x900 res
medium settings
Experience level:
only played ns1 2 sessions total.
started ns2 in oct 2011 (first build i ever played was build 186)
i get more kills as a fade then i ever get as a marine. Typical scenerio would be about 50kills and maybe 2-3 deaths as a fade and even less deaths if i play with guerilla tactics of blink in hit and blink out run, recharge energy/health then repeat. i'm not afraid to attack a group of 5 marines, all the difference is, is that i do hit and run as main tactics when alone and fighting groups. how many times do you see 1 fade destroy a base of marines by it self. now how many times do you see a marine do that even with nano shield and med pack support. i think its cause of lack of content. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/Natural_Selection_Manual.html" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/static/Nat...ion_Manual.html</a> . ns1 has counters for everything.
there should be a system to collect these vital information of class statistics so we get a understanding of their power vs the other team. from build 186 to 189 the fade was the master of disaster. there was only 2 builds where the fade was easily killable. i believe that was 192 and 191. And after those two marine biased builds were gone the fade came back as the top predator. so if skill is a element, why is it that i can get such a good kill ratio to death ratio as a fade but when i'm a marine the 50 kill is more of a dream then reality. playing fade seems to usually come to the fact that i can kill marines very efficiently, but when they have numbers and good weapons and the odds are agianst me, i can always get away with no issues as long as i use hit and run and make sure that my energy level is recharged full before going back in.
its a lot harder to do but ive seen 50:3ish k/d ratios on a jp shotty
altho he's also camping in central drilling :p
The fade's technical advantage in combat (ignoring all numbers), and the reason why the shotgun is effective against it, is the short intervals in which the fade is actually vulnerable. I don't see that as necessarily a reason to remove the invulnerability, but it's a good starting point for understanding why the shotgun is effective against it. The shotgun is semi-automatic and does burst damage, and you are only firing during the short intervals in which the fade is actually vulnerable, and (assuming that you do not miss) you are doing a significant amount of damage within that time. On the other hand, the rifle fires "relatively" slowly (i.e. slower than instant), so you are doing comparatively less damage and often wasting bullets. Because the fade itself does burst (instant) damage, it meshes well with that small-period-of-vulnerability playstyle, and there is a clear disadvantage that non-shotgun marines face. Obviously the only reason that the flamethrower is useful against the fade is because it has energy drain against the fade which is critically dependent on energy.
I would like to propose an alternative burst-fire mode for the rifle. This wouldn't really help much against any other alien except the fade. The attack would be basically semi-automatic and it would fire, say, 5 bullets at a time; at an increased, say double, rate of fire, but the duration between shots is equal to the duration OF the shot (so overall the rate of fire remains the same).
EDIT: I'll take one thing back: one thing does concern me, the balance against the skulk: if you had perfect aim (or perfect luck) you could effectively take two "shots" against the skulk to kill it. <b>On the other hand</b>, if you had perfect aim, you'd be able to kill the skulk in the same amount of time anyway, and you could always burst-fire manually.
The Aliens require players to evolve into forms solely for building and support, therefore, lacking any real firepower.
The Marines are not at quite such a disadvantage, since their technology allows instant structure placements without the requirement of sacrificing a potential soldier for the duty of structure building.
This is why the advanced lifeforms are much more powerful than the former. The Aliens do not have the capability for group and expansions simultaneously.
From the very few games I've play of NS2, I see a lot of bad marines teams either with poor commanding or poor marine play. Groups are what make the marines so dangerous, and I see way too much complaining from marines who think they should be able to rambo into the hive.
I also see a lot bad marine teams try and spread out for res, then proceed to leave a built res undefended.
Or group up, grab a res node, continue pushing, get slaughtered by the respawning skulks without holding their position and building defenses and proceed to lose everything they pushed for. (It's like watching Siege map play)
My other theory is that the Aliens scare new players. I find playing Aliens just that much more enjoyable. Pub games could probably lead to some bad player balance issues.
So here is the fade mod :
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115631" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115631</a>
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Thank you Yuuki.
We need this in the game to balance the fades invulnerablity, and help their combat effectiveness against jetpackers.
The Aliens require players to evolve into forms solely for building and support, therefore, lacking any real firepower.
The Marines are not at quite such a disadvantage, since their technology allows instant structure placements without the requirement of sacrificing a potential soldier for the duty of structure building.
This is why the advanced lifeforms are much more powerful than the former. The Aliens do not have the capability for group and expansions simultaneously.
From the very few games I've play of NS2, I see a lot of bad marines teams either with poor commanding or poor marine play. Groups are what make the marines so dangerous, and I see way too much complaining from marines who think they should be able to rambo into the hive.
I also see a lot bad marine teams try and spread out for res, then proceed to leave a built res undefended.
Or group up, grab a res node, continue pushing, get slaughtered by the respawning skulks without holding their position and building defenses and proceed to lose everything they pushed for. (It's like watching Siege map play)
My other theory is that the Aliens scare new players. I find playing Aliens just that much more enjoyable. Pub games could probably lead to some bad player balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can you clarify this "The Aliens require players to evolve into forms solely for building"
for support i understand, but the only thing you can build after evolving is hydra and cyst and thats only if you evolve to a gorge.
* 100 rounds
* Cost 30-35 res. 20 Res armory upgrade cost.
* HMG bullets have higher armor penetration
* Very high movement penalty
* Very slow reload time
* Slightly slower ROF than the LMG
* Wider spread than the LMG
There I fixed it
* 100 rounds
* Cost 30-35 res. 20 Res armory upgrade cost.
* HMG bullets have higher armor penetration
* Very high movement penalty
* Very slow reload time
* Slightly slower ROF than the LMG
* Wider spread than the LMG
There I fixed it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it could make a big difference. what i noticed when i first started is most commanders like to do the arms lab instead of the factory first. this was a ns1 build order because they had welders to repair and many other offensive weapons like hand grenade and the heavy machine gun that changed the battlefields strategy. without these, it could be the difference between victory or defeat. imagine the shotgun did not exist in ns2.
it just wastes (30?) res, as it gives no tech or defensive advantage to rines - it just provides something for a skulk to gnaw on for 45 seconds before their 2nd hive goes down. mines laid down on the technode would do far more.
it just wastes (30?) res, as it gives no tech or defensive advantage to rines - it just provides something for a skulk to gnaw on for 45 seconds before their 2nd hive goes down. mines laid down on the technode would do far more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are far underestimating what extra nano shield can do for you. extra cc's are 20 tres iirc. same as a robo or arms lab
* 100 rounds
* Cost 30-35 res. 20 Res armory upgrade cost.
* HMG bullets have higher armor penetration
* Very high movement penalty
* Very slow reload time
* Slightly slower ROF than the LMG
* Wider spread than the LMG
There I fixed it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
v
<!--quoteo(post=1902242:date=Feb 12 2012, 01:15 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 12 2012, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade's technical advantage in combat (ignoring all numbers), and the reason why the shotgun is effective against it, is the short intervals in which the fade is actually vulnerable. I don't see that as necessarily a reason to remove the invulnerability, but it's a good starting point for understanding why the shotgun is effective against it. The shotgun is semi-automatic and does burst damage, and you are only firing during the short intervals in which the fade is actually vulnerable, and (assuming that you do not miss) you are doing a significant amount of damage within that time. On the other hand, the rifle fires "relatively" slowly (i.e. slower than instant), so you are doing comparatively less damage and often wasting bullets. Because the fade itself does burst (instant) damage, it meshes well with that small-period-of-vulnerability playstyle, and there is a clear disadvantage that non-shotgun marines face. Obviously the only reason that the flamethrower is useful against the fade is because it has energy drain against the fade which is critically dependent on energy.
I would like to propose an alternative burst-fire mode for the rifle. This wouldn't really help much against any other alien except the fade. The attack would be basically semi-automatic and it would fire, say, 5 bullets at a time; at an increased, say double, rate of fire, but the duration between shots is equal to the duration OF the shot (so overall the rate of fire remains the same).
EDIT: I'll take one thing back: one thing does concern me, the balance against the skulk: if you had perfect aim (or perfect luck) you could effectively take two "shots" against the skulk to kill it. <b>On the other hand</b>, if you had perfect aim, you'd be able to kill the skulk in the same amount of time anyway, and you could always burst-fire manually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tl;dr: you want more damage in less time to counter the fade's periods of invulnerability, not less damage in more time. see: shotgun. suggested: rifle burst-fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1902435:date=Feb 13 2012, 05:37 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 13 2012, 05:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but whats the argument for putting down a second CC?
it just wastes (30?) res, as it gives no tech or defensive advantage to rines - it just provides something for a skulk to gnaw on for 45 seconds before their 2nd hive goes down. mines laid down on the technode would do far more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
v
<!--quoteo(post=1902016:date=Feb 11 2012, 12:41 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 11 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the past, I had come up with the idea of gaining TR from Tech Points, and PR from Res Nodes. Every single thing is unlocked on structures, independent of how many Tech Points you hold. Holding more Tech Points just means you gain the upgrades that much quicker.
If you want one team to expand more than the other (e.g. you want aliens to hold multiple hives and marines to hold one CC), then you could just make their Tech Point Structure (Hive/CC) cheaper, make their upgrades cost more (so they are encouraged to expand) and make it harder to statically defend (poor, or expensive, static defenses).
Lifeforms would be unlocked by the commander in sequence, e.g. Skulk available from the start, Gorge costs 5 TR to unlock (5 total) and is required to unlock Lerk, Lerk costs 10 TR to unlock (15 total) and is required to unlock Fade, Fade costs 20 TR to unlock (35 total) and is required to unlock Onos, Onos costs 40 TR to unlock (75 total).
Upgrade paths are essentially inexorable (as teams will always hold Tech Points) but the pacing of upgrades tends to also be more predictable (as there are relatively few Tech Points, therefore relatively low variance in TR income). However, you can starve your opponent's "unit production" (PR) by harassing and destroying their Res Node structures (Harvester/Extractor). It also introduces a Tech Point vs Res Node trade-off (reliable but high-investment increase in upgrade speed vs unreliable but low-investment increase in unit production).
Abolish energy, except for specialised activated-ability structures.
Put all support abilities to cost TR, and add TRFK, and you have scalable resource income for support (more players, more TRFK, more TR, more support, support/player stays constant), while also introducing support/upgrade trade-offs in commander decision-making.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tl;dr: I agree that bonuses from Tech Points are far too limited. suggested: Detach Hive requirement from unlocks. Sequential life-form unlocking. TR from RFK (for support scalability) and Tech Points (for upgrade unlocks). TR for upgrade unlocks (researches) and support abilities. PR from RTs. PR for "unit production" (player purchases). Remove energy costs and replace with TR costs, except for specialised activated-ability structures (e.g. for beacon).