Remember those BIG Co_ maps first 2 minutes was to gather resource and build, doors would open and an epic battle would start... as much as i love NS classic some of my best times were on CO maps and it would just be really disappointing if I couldn't relive that with NS2, honestly I would dump NS like an old girlfriend. there's always better fish in the sea.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1904830:date=Feb 19 2012, 12:28 PM:name=SkyPirate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SkyPirate @ Feb 19 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember those BIG Co_ maps first 2 minutes was to gather resource and build, doors would open and an epic battle would start... as much as i love NS classic some of my best times were on CO maps and it would just be really disappointing if I couldn't relive that with NS2, honestly I would dump NS like an old girlfriend. there's always better fish in the sea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1706483:date=May 8 2009, 01:48 AM:name=jamangler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jamangler @ May 8 2009, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1706483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why? I mean seriously.. it even states "Combat mode was intended to be a simplified version of NS to help introduce new players to the game." -so in saying that then not putting a lot of co_ into NS2 you dont want to help introduce new players to the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the 'quality' of the drawn in players is lacking, there is no point in adding.
<!--quoteo(post=1706624:date=May 10 2009, 02:17 PM:name=jamangler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jamangler @ May 10 2009, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1706624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure maybe some are silly or maybe you dont prefer to play anything but the original game type but at the very least you are able to build a larger fan base by offering a larger game to people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mean to nitpick at what you're saying since you obviously enjoyed CO. Nothing wrong with that.
I just want to point out that a specific mod probably <b>won't build a larger fanbase</b> simply because <b>most people will buy NS2 for what it is: NS2</b>. I'd wager most folks won't buy it just to play a specific mod. (Very notable Exceptions: NS, CS, DOD, TF, DoTA... these are among literally hundreds, maybe thousands of mods across mutliple games over decades... not a very big list. Anyway, there is a very, very slim chance of a breakthrough mod)
At any rate, CO will possibly pop up as a community mod. I just really hope mods don't prematurely split the community.
I hated co_ when it came to NS1. Its like taking the best part out of the game (the RTS - FPS mechanic) and transform the game to a way worse Halflife Classic or AvP. I don't see how people enjoy the complexity of NS (which is one of my purchase reasons) but at the same time want some very simple pew-pew which you can find in any other FPS game. Don't make NS2 to AvP3 this isn't necessary. Focus on the parts that make NS so fantastic:<ul><li>greatest focus on teamplay in any game I have played, </li><li>complexity (=possibilities)</li><li>and the crossover with the RTS genre.</li></ul>
co killed of ns for me. When it was introduced it completely thru the team work out the window, all servers were co_whatever, no one wanted to play regular ns anymore. I am really against it coming back >.>
, i agree that co did not kill NS1, but it killed ns classic core gameplay by having countless hax servers running stupid, pointless scripts. the only thing CO managed to do is to pull over all these counterstrike rejects, just to offer similar gameplay with different models, and rarely someone of these guys ever got interested into the core gameplay of classic, because they all have some sort of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and could not follow orders in the first place.
it is almost like uwe tried to increase the playercount by pulling off a operation paperclip coup, by pulling over a shortbus full with retards
Im not sure which version it was when I started playing NS. I would say 99% sure it was before 2.0 versions. It was between late 2002 and 2004 (when I did play Enemy Territory also) and when WoW released (in 2004) I played WoW for an year before tested NS again. In that time CO patch hadn't came yet and I remember when the patch came.
Classic NS was most fun to me at start (it was alot different than other FPS games). I dont remember much (I was 12-year-old atm) but because im finnish and I was a kid I prefered finnish only servers (didnt understand english that much). Back in then there wasnt much finnish only servers and I bought one NS server with my friends. It was most of time full in prime times and I think it served good. I have so less memories of these times, only what I do remember is how much I liked the classic NS and its randomness/epic matches. Of course that was one of my first FPS games after HL/CS, so that highlights memories.
When I started to play NS again just before combat mode patch, the game was changed so much. Im not sure but I do remeber how in that time before combat mode patch there wasnt much finnish only classic servers. Or if there was, they were most of time empty (felt the classic NS was dead). Tho I was a kid and prefered servers which were in my nation country because didnt understand english that much and so on didnt search servers nationally. So when the combat mode patch was released I played most of time only in co servers in foreign servers. Soon combat mode felt boring because there wasnt much else to do than kill and kill and kill. Pretty boring imo and the community wasnt as good in co servers than it was at start in classic servers. In co servers everyone just wanted to PWN PEW PEW all alone and be a "superstar". I wanted to play classic NS again but there wasnt much classic NS servers in that time, most were co/siege only servers. Even when I searched nationally I found mostly co/siege only servers and that was the bottleneck for me, I just felt that classic NS was dead and therefore felt the actual game was dead. I did quit soon and after an year/few years I tried again but it was pretty much dead already, only few servers were up.
PC gaming has changed alot. People knows that they want to play so another game wont draw people away just because its new and exciting. I think people have tested alot different genres and knows which gives best feeling. To me its FPS genre but not CS/BF/COD, I want a teambased FPS game where people just cannot solo or if they do they will find the game be boring because they just cannot do much alone. It forces people to stick together and thats the best thing, win a game as team but same time your personal skills means much and having good skills can change a match's course but not solve it.
What comes to classic/combat modes, I think updating classic NS by devs is necessary because people who have bought NS2, bought it because of classic mode not combat mode. UWE is a small company and therefore they haven't enough time to update both classic and combat mode without suffering from another one. So I prefer them to upgrade only classic mode, engine, code etc which makes THE ACTUAL game better and therefore if someone want to make combat mod to NS2 it will be smoothier and better. None will prevent you/anyone to make combat mod. I havent skills myself because havent studied LUA code or whatever it needs but there will be always someone who can make. And Im sure if the ACTUAL game is good there will be alot good mods to people who dont want to play only classic NS.
Not going to discuss did combat mode kill classic NS or not, but my feeling is that classic NS was already bit dead before combat mode patch. Of course when servers were mostly only co/siege it was the time when classic NS died, new players just didnt play in classic servers. Alot of people moved to another game (perhaps it was WoW?) and PC gaming was just starting to shine bright and people tried alot different genres. At now people want a game which has a future, good community and also the game has to be polished. So polish the ACTUAL game and let community to make mods etc and the game will live long, just like CS.
I think the idea this time is 'make ns_ less confusing' rather than 'make a different gamemode'.
Which I think is fine, NS2 has actual interface cues and stuff, and there are lots of other games that've been released since then that you can draw conventions from.
<!--quoteo(post=1905452:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:52 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 21 2012, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea this time is 'make ns_ less confusing' rather than 'make a different gamemode'.
Which I think is fine, NS2 has actual interface cues and stuff, and there are lots of other games that've been released since then that you can draw conventions from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the visual cues eliminate the need for CO. Almost anyone with FPS experience should be able to hop in and enjoy the game, and with a few hours of playtime, have a real grasp on the core elements of the game (i.e. what structures there are and what some of them do) and an understanding of basic strategy.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Why does this combat debate even still go on?
NS2 is planned by the devs to be the most modded game ever. That means 100's or 1000's of mods if they are successful. All this talk of what combat did to ns is irrelevant. this game is designed to be modded. Get used to seeing hundreds of mods available for this game, like there was for HL1, and stop harping on about what is now an irrelevant topic.
Sure an alternative mode may or may not have had a negative effect on a mod.
NS2 is a full retail game like HL2, designed for modding. Debating whether or not a combat mod would harm NS2 is ridiculous, that means you are saying the very philosophy of UWE is flawed. If people mod their game, it will fail.
Wake up and smell the coffee. NS2 is not a mod, it is a full retail game depending on the success of it's modding tools to encourage a huge additional influx of players to the game, many of which won't even go near the main game.
Stop thinking small time, NS2 is out to try and grab sales figures and player figures akin to HL2, not NS1.
Mods will be the lifeblood of UWE and thus the Natural Selection universe. They are critical to the success of this game on a level UWE requires.
Mods may have killed NS1, but NS2 won't be able to survive without them...
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why does this combat debate even still go on?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because combat, xmenu, extralevels, bots and assorted junk plugins is widely believed to have been detrimental to classic NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this talk of what combat did to ns is irrelevant. this game is designed to be modded. Get used to seeing hundreds of mods available for this game, like there was for HL1, and stop harping on about what is now an irrelevant topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CO was integrated into NS. It appareared in the same browser. Servers could switch back and forth between CO and NS maps at will. If UWE repeats this with plugins and mods for NS2 it could be seriously harmful.
Mods for HL were second class citizens. You had to go out of your way to download and install NS, and you had to launch it separately. This was a good thing. Plugins and CO erroded this compartmentalisation. I have better things to do with my time than hunt for a server not infested with crap.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a full retail game like HL2, designed for modding. Debating whether or not a combat mod would harm NS2 is ridiculous, that means you are saying the very philosophy of UWE is flawed. If people mod their game, it will fail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I do think UWE's philosophy of trying to make the game very moddable is flawed, but this has nothing to do with CO(not having compartmentalization of different mods and plugins is a separate mistake that they could potentially make). The decision to make the gameplay code in LUA has led to massive performance issues and a lot of work has gone into trying to fix those issues. It's not clear to me that in the end they will have saved any time over writing the game code in c++ or that they will succeed in reaching an acceptable level of performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mods will be the lifeblood of UWE and thus the Natural Selection universe. They are critical to the success of this game on a level UWE requires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Successful mods are made for games that already have a large installed user base for several reasons(lots of players => lots of potential modders. Lots of players => large potential audience for mod). If NS2 cannot be successful without mods, it won't be successful. If NS2 is a success, but not a huge one, I still don't think mods will move hardly any copies of NS2; I think mods will be completely almost completely irrelevant.
Comments
Those were siege maps.
@SkyPirate: There's nothing stopping you from implementing this into the game. UWE don't have unlimited manpower and time.
If the 'quality' of the drawn in players is lacking, there is no point in adding.
I don't mean to nitpick at what you're saying since you obviously enjoyed CO. Nothing wrong with that.
I just want to point out that a specific mod probably <b>won't build a larger fanbase</b> simply because <b>most people will buy NS2 for what it is: NS2</b>. I'd wager most folks won't buy it just to play a specific mod. (Very notable Exceptions: NS, CS, DOD, TF, DoTA... these are among literally hundreds, maybe thousands of mods across mutliple games over decades... not a very big list. Anyway, there is a very, very slim chance of a breakthrough mod)
At any rate, CO will possibly pop up as a community mod. I just really hope mods don't prematurely split the community.
I am really against it coming back >.>
, i agree that co did not kill NS1, but it killed ns classic core gameplay by having countless hax servers running stupid, pointless scripts. the only thing CO managed to do is to pull over all these counterstrike rejects, just to offer similar gameplay with different models, and rarely someone of these guys ever got interested into the core gameplay of classic, because they all have some sort of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and could not follow orders in the first place.
it is almost like uwe tried to increase the playercount by pulling off a operation paperclip coup, by pulling over a shortbus full with retards
Classic NS was most fun to me at start (it was alot different than other FPS games). I dont remember much (I was 12-year-old atm) but because im finnish and I was a kid I prefered finnish only servers (didnt understand english that much). Back in then there wasnt much finnish only servers and I bought one NS server with my friends. It was most of time full in prime times and I think it served good. I have so less memories of these times, only what I do remember is how much I liked the classic NS and its randomness/epic matches. Of course that was one of my first FPS games after HL/CS, so that highlights memories.
When I started to play NS again just before combat mode patch, the game was changed so much. Im not sure but I do remeber how in that time before combat mode patch there wasnt much finnish only classic servers. Or if there was, they were most of time empty (felt the classic NS was dead). Tho I was a kid and prefered servers which were in my nation country because didnt understand english that much and so on didnt search servers nationally. So when the combat mode patch was released I played most of time only in co servers in foreign servers. Soon combat mode felt boring because there wasnt much else to do than kill and kill and kill. Pretty boring imo and the community wasnt as good in co servers than it was at start in classic servers. In co servers everyone just wanted to PWN PEW PEW all alone and be a "superstar". I wanted to play classic NS again but there wasnt much classic NS servers in that time, most were co/siege only servers. Even when I searched nationally I found mostly co/siege only servers and that was the bottleneck for me, I just felt that classic NS was dead and therefore felt the actual game was dead. I did quit soon and after an year/few years I tried again but it was pretty much dead already, only few servers were up.
PC gaming has changed alot. People knows that they want to play so another game wont draw people away just because its new and exciting. I think people have tested alot different genres and knows which gives best feeling. To me its FPS genre but not CS/BF/COD, I want a teambased FPS game where people just cannot solo or if they do they will find the game be boring because they just cannot do much alone. It forces people to stick together and thats the best thing, win a game as team but same time your personal skills means much and having good skills can change a match's course but not solve it.
What comes to classic/combat modes, I think updating classic NS by devs is necessary because people who have bought NS2, bought it because of classic mode not combat mode. UWE is a small company and therefore they haven't enough time to update both classic and combat mode without suffering from another one. So I prefer them to upgrade only classic mode, engine, code etc which makes THE ACTUAL game better and therefore if someone want to make combat mod to NS2 it will be smoothier and better. None will prevent you/anyone to make combat mod. I havent skills myself because havent studied LUA code or whatever it needs but there will be always someone who can make. And Im sure if the ACTUAL game is good there will be alot good mods to people who dont want to play only classic NS.
Not going to discuss did combat mode kill classic NS or not, but my feeling is that classic NS was already bit dead before combat mode patch. Of course when servers were mostly only co/siege it was the time when classic NS died, new players just didnt play in classic servers. Alot of people moved to another game (perhaps it was WoW?) and PC gaming was just starting to shine bright and people tried alot different genres. At now people want a game which has a future, good community and also the game has to be polished. So polish the ACTUAL game and let community to make mods etc and the game will live long, just like CS.
Just my story how I see NS's history :P
Which I think is fine, NS2 has actual interface cues and stuff, and there are lots of other games that've been released since then that you can draw conventions from.
Which I think is fine, NS2 has actual interface cues and stuff, and there are lots of other games that've been released since then that you can draw conventions from.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the visual cues eliminate the need for CO. Almost anyone with FPS experience should be able to hop in and enjoy the game, and with a few hours of playtime, have a real grasp on the core elements of the game (i.e. what structures there are and what some of them do) and an understanding of basic strategy.
NS2 is planned by the devs to be the most modded game ever. That means 100's or 1000's of mods if they are successful. All this talk of what combat did to ns is irrelevant. this game is designed to be modded. Get used to seeing hundreds of mods available for this game, like there was for HL1, and stop harping on about what is now an irrelevant topic.
Sure an alternative mode may or may not have had a negative effect on a mod.
NS2 is a full retail game like HL2, designed for modding. Debating whether or not a combat mod would harm NS2 is ridiculous, that means you are saying the very philosophy of UWE is flawed. If people mod their game, it will fail.
Wake up and smell the coffee. NS2 is not a mod, it is a full retail game depending on the success of it's modding tools to encourage a huge additional influx of players to the game, many of which won't even go near the main game.
Stop thinking small time, NS2 is out to try and grab sales figures and player figures akin to HL2, not NS1.
Mods will be the lifeblood of UWE and thus the Natural Selection universe. They are critical to the success of this game on a level UWE requires.
Mods may have killed NS1, but NS2 won't be able to survive without them...
Because combat, xmenu, extralevels, bots and assorted junk plugins is widely believed to have been detrimental to classic NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this talk of what combat did to ns is irrelevant. this game is designed to be modded. Get used to seeing hundreds of mods available for this game, like there was for HL1, and stop harping on about what is now an irrelevant topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CO was integrated into NS. It appareared in the same browser. Servers could switch back and forth between CO and NS maps at will. If UWE repeats this with plugins and mods for NS2 it could be seriously harmful.
Mods for HL were second class citizens. You had to go out of your way to download and install NS, and you had to launch it separately. This was a good thing. Plugins and CO erroded this compartmentalisation. I have better things to do with my time than hunt for a server not infested with crap.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a full retail game like HL2, designed for modding. Debating whether or not a combat mod would harm NS2 is ridiculous, that means you are saying the very philosophy of UWE is flawed. If people mod their game, it will fail.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I do think UWE's philosophy of trying to make the game very moddable is flawed, but this has nothing to do with CO(not having compartmentalization of different mods and plugins is a separate mistake that they could potentially make). The decision to make the gameplay code in LUA has led to massive performance issues and a lot of work has gone into trying to fix those issues. It's not clear to me that in the end they will have saved any time over writing the game code in c++ or that they will succeed in reaching an acceptable level of performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1906406:date=Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 23 2012, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1906406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mods will be the lifeblood of UWE and thus the Natural Selection universe. They are critical to the success of this game on a level UWE requires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Successful mods are made for games that already have a large installed user base for several reasons(lots of players => lots of potential modders. Lots of players => large potential audience for mod). If NS2 cannot be successful without mods, it won't be successful. If NS2 is a success, but not a huge one, I still don't think mods will move hardly any copies of NS2; I think mods will be completely almost completely irrelevant.