Jetpack cost vs viability
GodofThunder
Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Members
Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Members
Would just like to try and clarify what jetpack is designed to be used for? Is it a late game or mid game mechanic? What specific classes is it surpose to give an advantage over? Also does anyone else think jetpack should have a longer run time due to how much it costs?
Because it's actual use seems quite ineffective for how much it costs. Yes it helps alot as you can get away from almost every alien class, but most of them just chase you down. I have experienced being run down quite a few times and, also watched as commander, many other marines being run down as well. Considering how long it takes to get the dam things, it seems like the cost just is not worth it.
Vs Skulks
Example getting a GL and jet pack will cost you 45 res. The fact that if you get caught in a tunnel by a skulk, there is a very real chance that you can die due to not being able to fly up. Even if you do manage to escape, (which is hard considering they leap after you) good skulks will have parasited you and just simply follow you till you have to land. Yes you can shoot back at them while flying backwards, but half the time thats going to get you flying into a wall or something. You usually have to look where your generally going to land to land in a safe location. The fact that you can lose 45 res from a starting alien with no upgrades quite easily, makes no sense. In comparison a starting marine with no upgrades, has a slim chance in hell of killing a fade.
Vs Fades
This is probably my biggest concern. Aliens can get fades very quickly as we all know. The problem is jetpack costs alot to initially get. You can push for early jetpack, but that usually requires you to not get upgrades and weapons. This usually means jetpack does little as you simply cant kill fades, even if you can escape from them. I mean is jetpack surpose to be the counter to fades? Even if you get away and start nailing the fade, they can simply fade away. Very soon you will be coming back down, at which point fades usually just 'fade back up to you' after regening. Sure not always but alot of the time. Fades can simply wait till they have the advantage.
This is where cost really hits it for me. A good fade can usually kill 4-5 marines and stay alive for a very long time from his first evolution. Marines with jetpacks on the other hand can end up dead within about 20 seconds of getting their jetpack. Anyone else get annoyed when you have just spent 45 res as marine and die right away? The benefits just dont seem to out weight the costs. The same amount of res for a major different in survival time.
Vs OH NOS
They have to much HP, they follow you till you land, jetpack not designed to beat them, enough said.
Suggestions
1. Increase jetpack run time by about 5 seconds. This way marines can stay in the air, in a battle to actually have a good fight, instead of using it to just run away. Also with an extended flight time they would even have the option of reloading in the air, so that when they do have to land they arent just sitting ducks. Or more to the point when they really need to get out they can fly down a few hallways and ACTUALLY get to the next room without being run down in the hallway.
2. Reduce the proto lab to 25 res so that marines can get it mid game, about the same time as fades pop. Even if you don't increase flight time, having jetpacks almost the same time as fades would make a HUGE difference, and also balance the current fade devastation. That way mid game would be a real on the move, fast pace battle where fades and marines now have large moving capacity. It would setup late game for all the heavy weapons and be that much more interesting.
Currently I just feel jetpacks aren't worth it. Anyone else think the same?
Because it's actual use seems quite ineffective for how much it costs. Yes it helps alot as you can get away from almost every alien class, but most of them just chase you down. I have experienced being run down quite a few times and, also watched as commander, many other marines being run down as well. Considering how long it takes to get the dam things, it seems like the cost just is not worth it.
Vs Skulks
Example getting a GL and jet pack will cost you 45 res. The fact that if you get caught in a tunnel by a skulk, there is a very real chance that you can die due to not being able to fly up. Even if you do manage to escape, (which is hard considering they leap after you) good skulks will have parasited you and just simply follow you till you have to land. Yes you can shoot back at them while flying backwards, but half the time thats going to get you flying into a wall or something. You usually have to look where your generally going to land to land in a safe location. The fact that you can lose 45 res from a starting alien with no upgrades quite easily, makes no sense. In comparison a starting marine with no upgrades, has a slim chance in hell of killing a fade.
Vs Fades
This is probably my biggest concern. Aliens can get fades very quickly as we all know. The problem is jetpack costs alot to initially get. You can push for early jetpack, but that usually requires you to not get upgrades and weapons. This usually means jetpack does little as you simply cant kill fades, even if you can escape from them. I mean is jetpack surpose to be the counter to fades? Even if you get away and start nailing the fade, they can simply fade away. Very soon you will be coming back down, at which point fades usually just 'fade back up to you' after regening. Sure not always but alot of the time. Fades can simply wait till they have the advantage.
This is where cost really hits it for me. A good fade can usually kill 4-5 marines and stay alive for a very long time from his first evolution. Marines with jetpacks on the other hand can end up dead within about 20 seconds of getting their jetpack. Anyone else get annoyed when you have just spent 45 res as marine and die right away? The benefits just dont seem to out weight the costs. The same amount of res for a major different in survival time.
Vs OH NOS
They have to much HP, they follow you till you land, jetpack not designed to beat them, enough said.
Suggestions
1. Increase jetpack run time by about 5 seconds. This way marines can stay in the air, in a battle to actually have a good fight, instead of using it to just run away. Also with an extended flight time they would even have the option of reloading in the air, so that when they do have to land they arent just sitting ducks. Or more to the point when they really need to get out they can fly down a few hallways and ACTUALLY get to the next room without being run down in the hallway.
2. Reduce the proto lab to 25 res so that marines can get it mid game, about the same time as fades pop. Even if you don't increase flight time, having jetpacks almost the same time as fades would make a HUGE difference, and also balance the current fade devastation. That way mid game would be a real on the move, fast pace battle where fades and marines now have large moving capacity. It would setup late game for all the heavy weapons and be that much more interesting.
Currently I just feel jetpacks aren't worth it. Anyone else think the same?
Comments
All in all, the JP feels alot 'chunkyer' or 'cumbersome' than in NS1.
that's a good question and id like to know this as well. it seems like an allrounder for me, giving an advantage in combat as well as in mobility/tactics.
well, the biggest downside is, as you mentioned, the limited usage in small corridors. so i guess this is the type of territory where exos are supposed to be the most effective.
anyway, i have to disagree with your statements that jetpacks are not worth it. i consider the jetpack already quite useful even though i have still quite some room for improvement. there are so many little tricks to learn... just today i noticed how effective a gl can be if you shoot at your feet while flying straight up. oni can often be avoided if you make clever use of terrain with multiple layers (you can climb back up where they can't). the increased mobility makes it great for hit&run on harvesters as well as sitting on top of hives, filling it with shotgun shells while escaping the moment the skulks climb nearby walls. the list goes on and on... i think it's too early to buff the jetpacks as it might be the most experience/skill-based mechanic the marines have. give it some time.
It's very powerful, and it will be even moreso when you also have access to the exosuit (so your team can use both at once, with a variety of weapons).
There's an added bonus to it that's not in NS1 - you can fly over infestation and not be slowed down like you would if you were on the ground. That will become more important when the Shift is added and marines have to work extra hard to not be run over by really fast aliens.
Like everything (is supposed to be) in NS, it's a very skill-based choice to use a jetpack. You don't win fights just for having it - you have to also execute your flight and aiming to the best of your ability. If more than 5 people actually tried playing lerk, I'm sure we would see people saying it isn't worth the cost of 1.5 shotguns..
I'm more talking about the full cost to research. It takes an advanced armory (30), protolab (40), and JP research (35) for a grand total of 105 TRes. That's the most TRes of anything except full arms lab upgrades. As such, its generally not worth forgoing better weapons (SGs, GLs, FTs), upgrades (W1/2/3, A1/2/3), sentries, or PGs just to get JPs.
I'd much rather spend 30 res on becoming a Lerk than 20 res on a JP.
+1
except i disagree with the acceleration, i believe the devs NAILED the movement of the jetpack perfectly, feels exactly how i imagined it and my fears of them "gimping or "nerfing" it were washed away on day one!
edit:<!--quoteo(post=1905302:date=Feb 20 2012, 05:12 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 20 2012, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the most TRes of anything<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats a really good point.. hmm..
AA is something you get anyway in any reasonable game
protolab and jetpack are high cost because they unlock high tech - in the future the protolab will also give you exosuits, as well as exosuit/jetpack upgrades
jetpack research is there to change the timings of when things are scouted versus when they come out (and it's a high cost because jetpacks are bloody powerful)
here's some food for thought:
<ul><li>aliens make a hive that costs 75 tres to unlock each new lifeform</li><li>lifeforms cost more than any of the guns or armors individually...the higher lifeforms cost approximately what a gun AND armor suit do together</li><li>command chairs cost 1/4 of what hives cost and block hive sites</li><li>add together the cost of a chair and the cost of an AA or proto - you have approximately the cost of a hive, to unlock the same amount/level of tech!</li></ul>
the resource cost balancing of this game is really complicated, but don't think that marines have been done some huge disservice because they can't get jetpacks for barely any money. if they could, the game would devolve into really dumb jetpack rushes all the time (not like the one breadgunner did earlier today...THAT was cool)
I know other equipment is going to be added and what not, but thats why im questioning, that why cant they cut the cost a bit so marines can get it earlier. Even if its slower and unupgraded, it would help alot more early-mid game especially against fades. Once you have more resources you can upgrade it sure, and with added weapons it will become a powerful late game tool as well. But why cant the price of say the proto lab be reduced to get the jetpacks earlier to offset fade and lerks. Would make a huge difference. And that still doesnt change the fact that you can get lvl 1 armour and weapons, an Obs, and phase tech in comparison.
Most teams just dont bother with jetpacks till they have lots of res which is stupid cause soon we will probably have other better things to choose instead.
I dont think this would over power jetpacks at all as some people were concerned about, as all the upgrades say
-30 res for faster longer burn
-30 res for exo suit tech
-30 res for exo jetpack tech
-30 res railgun/big gun/wtfs
your still looking at around another 100-120 res to make them powerful. Only then will they be end game tools. By then OH NOs should be coming along as well. You could get jetpacks out earlier in their current state and it would be overpowered.
I just find it as a practical matter that jetpacks are more akin to tier 3/onos/game ender tech than the tier 2/fade/game changer tech I think they should cost. IMO it should require either an Advanced Armory or Prototype as a prereq, but not both. If the current implementation is too powerful for a tier2 tech level then it can be nerfed a bit by either upping the PRes cost, reducing the JP capacity, reducing it acceleration, or reducing its top speed.
No, that would be very unbalanced against the aliens. The jetpacks are situational and require skill. But then they are devastating. Try to catch a good jetpacker with a skulk or fade. Its really difficult. Sure a jetpack does not activate a godmode but I don't think, that this is bad.
So besides the high costs for research it is fairly balanced.
what you are experiencing are jpers who rush off solo or in disadvantaged spots and get killed because of it.
in terms of tech... sacrifice 3/3 upgrades and you almost have enough for jetpacks
infact.. proto type + jp research is the same cost as a hive!
In most long games i experienced the com would have jetpackers stay with a group of heavies, normally a 2:1 ratio (1 being jetpackers)
Their job was to pretty much chase after an onos if he was running away, especially if it had just devoured a heavy.
Jetpacks were alot faster in ns1 aswell
Vs fades: It makes getting the second hit harder for them if you're in the air, hell it makes getting the first hit harder too, anything that makes it harder for fades to hit you is good, and it isn't as though you can buy two shotguns at once, is it?
Vs onos: Land on something other than the floor. A catwalk, a rock, a crate, the hive, a vent in the roof, just about anything can easily put you out of reach of an onos and you can shoot it with impunity.
Jetpacks are not the be all and end all of marine tech like they were in NS1, but they're still very useful when the most equipment you can buy without them is about 25 res worth, putting you slightly below the lerk in terms of individual effectivness.
1. Increase jetpack run time by about 5 seconds. This way marines can stay in the air, in a battle to actually have a good fight, instead of using it to just run away. Also with an extended flight time they would even have the option of reloading in the air, so that when they do have to land they arent just sitting ducks. Or more to the point when they really need to get out they can fly down a few hallways and ACTUALLY get to the next room without being run down in the hallway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO!
Gee, how aliens kill then marines, specialy onos player?
<!--quoteo(post=1905255:date=Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Reduce the proto lab to 25 res so that marines can get it mid game, about the same time as fades pop. Even if you don't increase flight time, having jetpacks almost the same time as fades would make a HUGE difference, and also balance the current fade devastation. That way mid game would be a real on the move, fast pace battle where fades and marines now have large moving capacity. It would setup late game for all the heavy weapons and be that much more interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades already die very quick, no need to recude protolab costs.
<!--quoteo(post=1905255:date=Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905255"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently I just feel jetpacks aren't worth it. Anyone else think the same?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, totaly disagree with all your points, if i get a jetpack i fly to hives and kill them very easy.
Because with a jetpacks the marines are like flys, they are annyoing but very hard to catch.
I see so many times one marine kill a hive just with his jetpack and his axe.
A onos can not reach the hive, a skulk get shoot very fast, a gorge can not spit up to the marine, a lerk and fade is the only way to kill that marine.
Jetpacks should not morph a marine into superman.
I like jetpacks very much, we are most times win if my team got jps.
Fly up shoot a onos and go on, that simple, only a fade and lerk can be dangerous now.
But with a shotgun, its not a big problem.
Also fades can't stay in air, they have to wait until you fall down and even that you are a dangerous marine with a shotgun.
Don't forget a fade have to hit you 2 times and if you kill a fade he lost 50 res, you only lost 20 res + your weapon...
That being said fades still seem unfair (unfair to the point where they're so easy it's not even fun to use), but yeah, if you go into a vent you should be aware that gives away the whole flying advantage.
And onos... it's kinda meant to require more than 1 guy.
now it feels like the dam thing needs to warm up first before it gets my fat arse in the air then once it does it runs out of gas and says "Hey brah im outa fuel, you mad?"
Just wish it had a heck of alot more propulsion when you take off.
Gee, how aliens kill then marines, specialy onos player?
Fades already die very quick, no need to recude protolab costs.
No, totaly disagree with all your points, if i get a jetpack i fly to hives and kill them very easy.
Because with a jetpacks the marines are like flys, they are annyoing but very hard to catch.
I see so many times one marine kill a hive just with his jetpack and his axe.
A onos can not reach the hive, a skulk get shoot very fast, a gorge can not spit up to the marine, a lerk and fade is the only way to kill that marine.
Jetpacks should not morph a marine into superman.
I like jetpacks very much, we are most times win if my team got jps.
Fly up shoot a onos and go on, that simple, only a fade and lerk can be dangerous now.
But with a shotgun, its not a big problem.
Also fades can't stay in air, they have to wait until you fall down and even that you are a dangerous marine with a shotgun.
Don't forget a fade have to hit you 2 times and if you kill a fade he lost 50 res, you only lost 20 res + your weapon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get jetpack you fly to hive and kill with axe? Do you know exactly how long it takes for one marine to kill a hive with an axe. A dam long time. What on earth were the aliens doing? Playing poker? If aliens arent responding to a hive attack, or have crags to keep it alive for awhile, then you need to find some better opponents.
You fly up shoot a onos and go on? Please post a video of you flying up and in one flight killing an onos by yourself cause id really like to see it. You may get away to a ledge, but there is no way you can kill an onos by yourself. He would have to just stand there like an idiot and would require you using your entire clip, and then getting ammo from the commander. One marine can't kill an Onos. An Onos with half a brain would run away if he couldnt get you.
Don't forget a fade only has to hit you 2 times. THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT! Any half decent fade will have teleported right up to you and got that first hit in before you can respond. As was stated before, the launch time for jetpack is not exactly quick so you dont leave a fade hitting range for a few seconds. This means you can very easily die to a fade even with jetpack,(you must be vsing some very bad aliens if you never die) and you also missed the point that there are alot of tunnels where jetpack becomes useless.
Point is
-Jetpack is only really useful in half a map( ie not tunnels), so there is generally no guanrantee of good use without dieing right away. For the cost it requires having a 50% chance of getting killed right away doesnt seem worth it. A fade on the other hand has the ability to instantly leave a bad situation giving them a greater survival rate in general.
-A skulk with no upgrades can easily kill a marine with a jetpack. On the other hand a marine with no upgrades stand's a slim chance in hell of killing a fade.
The cost simply does not out weigh the benefits in most cases. NOT ALWAYS, but most.
The fade arguement has been done into the ground. Here we have a simple, easy and already existing item that can be the solution to fades. Unless people have a better idea, and im open to ideas, I really think reducing proto lab to get jetpacks out around the same time as fades, would make it a very balanced, fast paced, and exciting game.
Happens to me all the time, too :-)
So besides the high costs for research it is fairly balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You gotta keep in mind that the aliens will be faster in the final version of the game. Hell, celerity might even be implemented "soon".
You already have a screnario where jetpacking marines have trouble retreating from aliens, then the aliens becomes faster, what then?
You increase the base movement speed and acceleration of the jetpacks of course.
It's impossible to catch a jetpacker with the current fade, but thankfully the devs are trying out the fade momentum mod.
In an open space? Just fly straight up to get out of their vertical FoV.
In a tight corrider? Just sprint a little before jumping to flee super fast.
The power of the current jetpack implementation is all about positioning yourself intelligently so that you can abuse the fact that you're used a ranged weapon on a melee combatant who isn't used to tracking vertical movement.
now it feels like the dam thing needs to warm up first before it gets my fat arse in the air then once it does it runs out of gas and says "Hey brah im outa fuel, you mad?"
Just wish it had a heck of alot more propulsion when you take off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh this has a lot do with aliens being <b>a lot</b> faster in NS1, especially fades, though I suppose we don't have Movement Chambers in NS2 yet (which I don't really get why it's been left till last considering it's been the staple chamber in NS1 for the last 7 years :/).
But yeh I get what you're saying they really lack the speed boost/skilled movement they gave in NS1, currently leaving them as a nice (rather expensive) addition instead of the game changing tier 3 tech they should be.
- Fix the crouch/backwards speed scalars affecting jetpack flight.
- Gravity needs to be -20. The jetpack gives the player half gravity, which doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that this wasn't needed for NS1 jetpacks indicates that the gravity in NS2 is too high.
- The acceleration should be <b>doubled</b>.
- Air friction should be removed or drastically decreased.
- The max speed should be increased to about 12 (current speed with rifle is 8.8; NS1's speed was roughly 14.375 in NS2 units)
- A better version of air control needs to be added (and not just for jetpacks). Here's how to do it:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Player:ConstrainMoveVelocity(wishVelocity)
if not self:GetIsOnLadder() and not self:GetIsOnGround() and wishVelocity:GetLengthXZ() > 0 and self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() > 0 then
local normWishVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(wishVelocity)
local normVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(self:GetVelocity())
local distance = Vector(normWishVelocity.x - normVelocity.x, 0, normWishVelocity.z - normVelocity.z):GetLengthXZ()
local airScalar = 0
if(distance > 1.4142) then
airScalar = 1
end
wishVelocity:Scale(airScalar)
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And if these changes make the jetpack overpowered, just nerf the fuel.
- Fix the crouch/backwards speed scalars affecting jetpack flight.
- Gravity needs to be -20. The jetpack gives the player half gravity, which doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that this wasn't needed for NS1 jetpacks indicates that the gravity in NS2 is too high.
- The acceleration should be <b>doubled</b>.
- Air friction should be removed or drastically decreased.
- The max speed should be increased to about 12 (current speed with rifle is 8.8; NS1's speed was roughly 14.375 in NS2 units)
- A better version of air control needs to be added (and not just for jetpacks). Here's how to do it:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Player:ConstrainMoveVelocity(wishVelocity)
if not self:GetIsOnLadder() and not self:GetIsOnGround() and wishVelocity:GetLengthXZ() > 0 and self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() > 0 then
local normWishVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(wishVelocity)
local normVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(self:GetVelocity())
local distance = Vector(normWishVelocity.x - normVelocity.x, 0, normWishVelocity.z - normVelocity.z):GetLengthXZ()
local airScalar = 0
if(distance > 1.4142) then
airScalar = 1
end
wishVelocity:Scale(airScalar)
end
end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
And if these changes make the jetpack overpowered, just nerf the fuel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice Jaweese, stabilising gravity, increasing takeoff and performance would be very cool. Hope the devs see this. But id say the general air speed is not so much the issue, perticulary because they are going to add speed boost later. They do have a pretty decent setup right now I think. The problem is the cost. They are very late game and half the time, your not even given the chance to get them at all. In later patches when you have so many more things to research, how are you going to pay for it all?
With a reduction cost, even if you died quickly after getting a jetpack, because it didn't cost so much it wouldn't be so damaging. It would also change the balance of power fades currently have, as it would no longer be easy meals running around.