B199 - The reason behind the movement change
Techercizer
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
While other threads about loving/hating the new movement change rise, fall, or rage on, what I really want to know is what the impetus was behind the change.
We have this quote from Cory...
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 03:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...but the implications of it aren't quite clear, and they leave a few questions I'd like to ask the developers, time and interest willing.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1) Was the air control/wall-jump movement change an unavoidable side effect of the bug fix?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The first solution to a problem such as this that comes to my mind would be to give all players the same control that players running at 60fps had, but then again, I know next to nothing about the bug. It might be that an equal playing field was impossible under the old mechanics, which would certainly explain the suddenness and immutability of the change.
If not, that leads to question two
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->2) Was the old Skulk movement lacking in some significant way?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I'm not here to complain about the movement changes, and I don't want to make a thread that turns into anything of the sort. What I <i>would</i> like to do is figure out if there was a key gameplay component that b198 Skulk movement lacked, or any problems it caused. I know a lot off people (myself included) were pretty happy about the way it felt, but feeling isn't everything. If there was something wrong with skulk movement from the big picture, I'd love to hear about it. It might even change the way I (and potentially others) view what the Skulk is supposed to be.
Of course, it's perfectly plausible that the old movement scheme just didn't have the potential UWE sees in the current one, which leads me to ask
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->3) Is there a driving focus, concept, or goal behind the new Skulk movement? What, if anything, makes it attractive?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
With a lot of the sticking/friction issues and wall-jump bugs that arrived with the movement change (as with all major changes), it's been quite difficult for the community to really see what it has to offer. I'd really like to know that the new movement system is intended to offer once it's polished up and cleaned of bugs, and how it's intended to change or improve the way we play NS2.
If anyone has the answers to these, please let me know. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's curious about the changes. As a closing caveat to other players: UWE has said that while the movement changes are slated to be improved, they're also here to stay, so asking for a rollback right now isn't likely to accomplish much.
<i>Edit: We have an update from Schimmel suggesting that the movement changes were the result of a physics overhaul</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1908974:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:03 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are wrong about momentum. before what you called momentum was a hacky implementation. We build some artificial mechanic on top of the already present player movement physics (which supports momentum implicite) to try out how well momentum works with the skulk. this hack has been removed and instead everything works now with friction and acceleration (friction was btw almost totally ignored before, a big flaw). what you might call momentum here is i guess the ability to store up some part of your impact velocity and release this stored energy on the next well timed jump (white bar indication in skulk speed meter). this mechanic will have a come back, and the skulk movement will be polished more to give you the same, but improved feeling without using hacks but "real" physics.
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>...and answers to the remaining quesitons of the thread by IE and Schimmel.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1909045:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the way schimmel and Cory explained it, it's not that the system was "buggy" per se. You couldn't see tons of game-breaking bugs (like the current air friction problem), but it was architecturally messy. The physics model was not clear and extensible, because it was a hackjob of some kind.
Of course it's a good idea to rebuild something like that with the mentioned design goals in mind, but people would react a lot better if you paired the new physics system with fun new features instead of bugs. Even if these problems are all gone in 2 days, it's another little source of aggravation for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1909062:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really good summarization. not much more to say other than it will become better with next patch, and continue to become better until we have something we consider as perfect, challenging and keep people playing! it's not an easy task to create a movement system that has no artificial skill cap, but i consider this as the most important factor. the beginning of this is now unpleasant, i understand everyone, but the end result (which depends also highly on player feedback) will be worth it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have this quote from Cory...
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 03:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS. We fixed that, which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...but the implications of it aren't quite clear, and they leave a few questions I'd like to ask the developers, time and interest willing.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->1) Was the air control/wall-jump movement change an unavoidable side effect of the bug fix?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
The first solution to a problem such as this that comes to my mind would be to give all players the same control that players running at 60fps had, but then again, I know next to nothing about the bug. It might be that an equal playing field was impossible under the old mechanics, which would certainly explain the suddenness and immutability of the change.
If not, that leads to question two
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->2) Was the old Skulk movement lacking in some significant way?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I'm not here to complain about the movement changes, and I don't want to make a thread that turns into anything of the sort. What I <i>would</i> like to do is figure out if there was a key gameplay component that b198 Skulk movement lacked, or any problems it caused. I know a lot off people (myself included) were pretty happy about the way it felt, but feeling isn't everything. If there was something wrong with skulk movement from the big picture, I'd love to hear about it. It might even change the way I (and potentially others) view what the Skulk is supposed to be.
Of course, it's perfectly plausible that the old movement scheme just didn't have the potential UWE sees in the current one, which leads me to ask
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->3) Is there a driving focus, concept, or goal behind the new Skulk movement? What, if anything, makes it attractive?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
With a lot of the sticking/friction issues and wall-jump bugs that arrived with the movement change (as with all major changes), it's been quite difficult for the community to really see what it has to offer. I'd really like to know that the new movement system is intended to offer once it's polished up and cleaned of bugs, and how it's intended to change or improve the way we play NS2.
If anyone has the answers to these, please let me know. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's curious about the changes. As a closing caveat to other players: UWE has said that while the movement changes are slated to be improved, they're also here to stay, so asking for a rollback right now isn't likely to accomplish much.
<i>Edit: We have an update from Schimmel suggesting that the movement changes were the result of a physics overhaul</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1908974:date=Mar 1 2012, 07:03 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are wrong about momentum. before what you called momentum was a hacky implementation. We build some artificial mechanic on top of the already present player movement physics (which supports momentum implicite) to try out how well momentum works with the skulk. this hack has been removed and instead everything works now with friction and acceleration (friction was btw almost totally ignored before, a big flaw). what you might call momentum here is i guess the ability to store up some part of your impact velocity and release this stored energy on the next well timed jump (white bar indication in skulk speed meter). this mechanic will have a come back, and the skulk movement will be polished more to give you the same, but improved feeling without using hacks but "real" physics.
so to sum it up: "momentum" was never present before, this is now new. before we had this storing of impact energy mechanic in place, and it will return once im convinced that the uncapped skulks max speed (yes it's uncapped right now) cannot be exploited or causes big troubles to balance. hopefully i will be able to add that back in already next weeks patch, but i cannot promise it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>...and answers to the remaining quesitons of the thread by IE and Schimmel.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1909045:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:22 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 1 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the way schimmel and Cory explained it, it's not that the system was "buggy" per se. You couldn't see tons of game-breaking bugs (like the current air friction problem), but it was architecturally messy. The physics model was not clear and extensible, because it was a hackjob of some kind.
Of course it's a good idea to rebuild something like that with the mentioned design goals in mind, but people would react a lot better if you paired the new physics system with fun new features instead of bugs. Even if these problems are all gone in 2 days, it's another little source of aggravation for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1909062:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really good summarization. not much more to say other than it will become better with next patch, and continue to become better until we have something we consider as perfect, challenging and keep people playing! it's not an easy task to create a movement system that has no artificial skill cap, but i consider this as the most important factor. the beginning of this is now unpleasant, i understand everyone, but the end result (which depends also highly on player feedback) will be worth it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
If it's not, then I have absolutely no idea.
Good thing we now know that most of the changes are more of an unwanted side-effect from the rewrite.
What is there to understand?
What is there to understand?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess I don't understand how it was buggy. I also don't see why we moved from a system that didn't see very buggy to a new system that is in turn extremely buggy. I don't see what was wrong with the old version, and I don't get what's supposed to be right with the current one. So, basically, the questions I asked above.
God*, I hope so!
*)Read FSM
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was a bug in the movement code that meant that players with high FPS had more speed and more control with the skulk then players with low FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a bug.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We fixed that,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They fixed it.
<!--quoteo(post=1908849:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 1 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->which meant we had to find a base speed and feeling that would work for everyone. There was some more air control added to allow for more skill based movement, as we've been hearing about a desire for that for quite a long time from a lot of players. It's not perfect yet, and will continue to be tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And they had to set a new 'feel' to it because of the fix.
To get the new 'feel' right, will take some iteration, because you can't simply plug the old numbers back into a new system that doesn't have spaces for those numbers.
I still haven't heard a concrete answer on whether the change was forced as part of fixing the bug or a design decision by UWE brought on by it.
...and feel a *little* less entitled? That's a personal preference, mind.
Of course it's a good idea to rebuild something like that with the mentioned design goals in mind, but people would react a lot better if you paired the new physics system with fun new features instead of bugs. Even if these problems are all gone in 2 days, it's another little source of aggravation for players.
=)
...and feel a *little* less entitled? That's a personal preference, mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd really love to hear you explain how a series of questions posed to the developers and community at large, and I quote, "time and interest willing" stems from entitlement.
Of course it's a good idea to rebuild something like that with the mentioned design goals in mind, but people would react a lot better if you paired the new physics system with fun new features instead of bugs. Even if these problems are all gone in 2 days, it's another little source of aggravation for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The physics rewrite information answers a lot of questions I had when I wrote the original post. What I don't quite get is if the new system is supposed to ultimately play like the old one, but without all the bugs, or is intended to work in some new and different fashion.
If nothing else, I guess I can always wait and see. it's not like NS2 is going to run off. I just felt like asking in case somebody had an answer they were waiting to drop.
Peace? =)
Of course it's a good idea to rebuild something like that with the mentioned design goals in mind, but people would react a lot better if you paired the new physics system with fun new features instead of bugs. Even if these problems are all gone in 2 days, it's another little source of aggravation for players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
really good summarization. not much more to say other than it will become better with next patch, and continue to become better until we have something we consider as perfect, challenging and keep people playing! it's not an easy task to create a movement system that has no artificial skill cap, but i consider this as the most important factor. the beginning of this is now unpleasant, i understand everyone, but the end result (which depends also highly on player feedback) will be worth it
Well that sounds broken ^.^ should be fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1909057:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:38 PM:name=Silverwing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silverwing @ Mar 1 2012, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Peace? =)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But of course; it never left.
<!--quoteo(post=1909062:date=Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Mar 1 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->really good summarization. not much more to say other than it will become better with next patch, and continue to become better until we have something we consider as perfect, challenging and keep people playing! it's not an easy task to create a movement system that has no artificial skill cap, but i consider this as the most important factor. the beginning of this is now unpleasant, i understand everyone, but the end result (which depends also highly on player feedback) will be worth it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that clears up everything I was wondering about. Thanks for the info, Schimmel, in both this thread and others.
marine, skulk, gorge, fade or lerk or onos.......
If I am moving forward...to step sideways I have to stop forward movement...The same appies to backward movement etc...one direction only. ie no side stepping. forced to travel in only one direction at a time feels totally unnatural and awkward.
I have been a supporter of NS1 from its first days......
1035 hours logged on NS2, as a beta there have been many improvements.
My personal opinion is this is the most negative effect on my game playing experince in NS2.
If this is a beta change to see what comments and experiences it provokes form players then fine......if it ends up being a permanent movement change I know it won't be long until NS2 is a distant memory.
So the question is.......is the game designed how the developers think it should feel...or how the players prefer ?
With the hours I have logged I don't have to consider programming issues etc etc.........what matters most to me is the gaming experience. So far I have applauded the development and changes, and the hard work by UWE....
Maybe I completely misunderstood..........but did I see a comment somewhere from a programmer that the movement changes are permanent...no matter what players say ?
Dave
C.A.T.
marine, skulk, gorge, fade or lerk or onos.......
If I am moving forward...to step sideways I have to stop forward movement...The same appies to backward movement etc...one direction only. ie no side stepping. forced to travel in only one direction at a time feels totally unnatural and awkward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's really strange because I am able to move sideways while moving forward/backward at the same time. This works perfectly fine for me as any class, so I think something might be up with your game files or perhaps keybinds. This thread is concerning air friction and wall-jumping speeds, so you may wish to try the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=108" target="_blank">Technical Support</a> forums for your particular issue.
once you get leap, have a play around with what you can do in the air now.. you basically have the same control in the air as you do on the ground
To summarize yet again: They completely rewrote the movement system (the <b>base</b> everything else is built upon) and subsequently broke a lot with the current movement mechanics. I don't really understand why they still released this patch, but they are working on making everything function properly again.
They also changed air control for skulk. I don't really understand how it works in the current implementation, but normally air control strength is given by a time, which tell you how long you have to wait for you speed to be redirected in the view direction. For example you move forward and you suddenly look to the left, then your speed will start to change to align with you view, and be aligned after a typical time. This time is too short now on the skulk now, it's almost instantaneous.
once you get leap, have a play around with what you can do in the air now.. you basically have the same control in the air as you do on the ground<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, the new air control is basically useless until you get leap because the base run speed is so low most of the time
the problem with that is it adds to the predictability of the skulk - in order to move effectively, you <b>have </b>to spend 1/3 of your adrenaline and fly in a straight line for a brief period