<!--quoteo(post=1914636:date=Mar 18 2012, 11:35 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 18 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? I don't do marine comm very often, so excuse the noob question.. What is the minimum time to get shotty's up?
I know it's build armory then research shot's, but how long does that take?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you rush, I think you can SG in 20-30 seconds?
<!--quoteo(post=1914640:date=Mar 18 2012, 01:44 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 18 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you rush, I think you can SG in 20-30 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I regularly start it as soon as my armory builds, and it takes 30 seconds. Meanwhile the skulks on the other team are getting to 27-28 pres each, since there's no res from kills even if they dominate my entire team. It's so fast that if the shift and celerity were in the game, you wouldn't be able to get celerity skulks before shotguns reach your hive (if the marines choose to do this). On top of that, this doesn't even matter because good shotgun aim trumps anything 1 hive aliens can do pretty nicely.
Stuff like this is a lot more important to the game than whether you can get a hive at 5:00, because that's obviously going to change in build 201, but the shotgun/lerk relationship has basically always been like this. It should be pretty intuitive that the lifeform which offers long range attacks (spikes) is the answer to an early investment in shotguns, but that isn't the case.
From what ive seen, sg is generally useless against a decent lerk. He is not going to just fly in and lay gas, if hes sees the sg, he stays back and spikes. And as far as i can tell, spikes beats anything early game as long as you can land them. With the lerk you have the ability to choose where you fight generally, so you need to make use of the infinite range, as cheap as it is.
Really? Because what I see is spikes do incredibly poor damage from anything but melee range, which is where shotguns destroy them completely.
Are you sure you're not playing against people who stand still away from teammates/armories/medpacks and just let you whittle them down?
If you check the game's code, spike damage even ramps up at close range (except it's suicide to use it up close, especially without the shotgun attack as of build 200)
regarding the skulk sound.. the problem with the skulk bite is not because it has a bad sound.. its the constant repetition of it for the whole time u are chewing on the resnode. the sound needs to be loud so that u can hear it when the other team is shooting and it works well in that context., but it is too much when u are killing a structure.. this is something i brought up to charlie b4, ideally we would want a separate bite animation/sound for structures so that i could make a custom sound for it that works well for that situation. i imagine it as a looping animation where the skulk latches onto the structure and kind of rips and pulls at it. its something we havent done because it requires new animations for first and thirdperson and new code, so its a lot of work just to fix an annoying sound. last time i spoke to charlie about it he agreed that it would be a good idea to do eventually,. no ETA on it.
the sound its self is based on a dog barking sound, just like with a real dog, it barks at u once or twise once u will get scared, if it keeps barking all night u will get annoyed.
also there will be round start music coming in soon, its part of a new dynamic ingame music system we r working on.
also i disagree that game sound needs to be soothing and relaxing, in fact i find 'relaxing' music really annoying! it depends on the game tho, but relaxing sound for an action scifi shooter?? i dont think so..
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1914956:date=Mar 19 2012, 12:40 PM:name=simon kamakazi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (simon kamakazi @ Mar 19 2012, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also i disagree that game sound needs to be soothing and relaxing, in fact i find 'relaxing' music really annoying! it depends on the game tho, but relaxing sound for an action scifi shooter?? i dont think so..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly :) I used to play DoD at the LAN centre I used to work in, but the soundtrack to DoD for me was Hybrid Theory by Linkin Park, just because that was the only album you could hear over the game noise in the headphones, when it came on the shop sound system. Even now, when I hear that album, I am running through the battlefields on DoD!
I believe the energy of the music, should balance with the intensity of the action, of course in a multiplayer game, that's very hard to do, unless you control the occurrence of battles (ala L4D director). All the classic singleplayer games are able to do this, even in Mario the music gets more intense as the gameplay does, hell even Tetris does it :)
I wish there was an easy way to detect if players were in battle in a multiplayer, so the music intensity could be ratcheted up a notch or two :)
@simon, I think people complains mainly about the metallic bite sound, not the normal one. It's WAY too loud, volume should be reduce by ~50%.
The lerk flight sound is also annoying, I guess it's not final but right now it doesn't sound like air friction at all and it's also a bit too loud, it should be quite subtle imo.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
the problem is not really defining "combat" for music feedback in the game. the problem is to define the time before you enter combat for a transistion in music, which should be as smooth and accurate as possible. the best thing you can do is make good guesses about the next players actions based off statistics, extrapolate that and "guess" how to change the music. think about a horror movie, where the music gets more and more exciting until the main actor finally looks around the corner -> finds nothing, music calms down and then out of the sudden a skulk comes from above (together with a rapid change in music) and kills you :)
<!--quoteo(post=1914633:date=Mar 18 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ Mar 18 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what kind of servers you are playing on, but in any game with about 2 veteran marines the lerks do not do anything of relevence.
Bilebomb doesn't do any damage so what is this post? I don't even...
Marines complain "lame lame lame" because lerk is a minor annoyance to them. "Oh no! Our comm station lost half of one percent!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Emh what? BileBomb from Lerk takes down 20% of an extractor ( 1 bomb ). And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting. Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1914969:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:18 PM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Mar 19 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Emh what? BileBomb from Lerk takes down 20% of an extractor ( 1 bomb ). And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting. Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What server was that? Because HBZ changes the values to something much higher.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1914986:date=Mar 19 2012, 01:14 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Mar 19 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What server was that? Because HBZ changes the values to something much higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A great example of the damage splitting the server community up with balance changes does. Making testing/feedback even more difficult (albeit with the best of intentions).
<!--quoteo(post=1914986:date=Mar 19 2012, 08:14 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Mar 19 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What server was that? Because HBZ changes the values to something much higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My take on the current bilebomb is that the original damage is way to low and the bilebomb is not that good. On the HBZ the bilebomb is viable. Its easy for me to bilebomb a base down even with 4-5 marines inside the base(3-4 biles go out/in again) on HBZ. Even if they keep the buldings alive I can keep them stuck in base to win the game. However if there were aimers on the server I might have difficulty vs 1 marine + commander. Would like to try that in a gather. I should be able to bilebomb base(the areas are usually rather open) and run away when marines come to defend, just forcing 1 marine to stay there would be good enough.
I think it will be very hard to use bilebomb in competitive matches, marines will easily just shoot down a lerk who tries to come close to bilebomb. if there are 2-3 marines together or just a single shotgun he might get 1 -2 bile in before escaping with low hp. I think aliens will rather go with fade/skulk combos than lerk to get the job done.
-- Also noticed that bilebomb does minor damage to marine armor, I think the armor damage should be increased to make it useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1914969:date=Mar 19 2012, 02:18 PM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Mar 19 2012, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Emh what? BileBomb from Lerk takes down 20% of an extractor ( 1 bomb ). And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting. Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An absolutely perfect bulseye of a hit with bile bomb deals 4% damage to an infantry portal, which has less health than an extractor. Anything outside of a direct hit deals about 1% damage. I don't know what server you were playing on, but they must have seriously modded their damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1915061:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:21 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 19 2012, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HBZ's bilebomb damage on lerk is 3x as much as normal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well the 3 HBZ servers is the only ones im playing on cuz i have under 40ping there. And if its x3 more damage as normal the LERKS sound very bad on other servers.
I agree with their changes as well. UWE has already stated the lerk will be receiving some big BB finetuning next patch. (Among other things hopefully)
<!--quoteo(post=1915099:date=Mar 19 2012, 01:00 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 19 2012, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with their changes as well. UWE has already stated the lerk will be receiving some big BB finetuning next patch. (Among other things hopefully)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It will need some major tuning, aliens completely lack a way to attack sieges from range. Few decent aimers or just turrets can easily prevent lerk from bile bombing.
The major problem I see is that you want ways for aliens to attack from range. The whole point of the alien team has always been that they are strong melee fighters with weak ranged damage and their mobility increases with tech, while the marines ranged damage increases with tech. Gorge bile bomb damage was always high and it wrecked any fixed emplacements that the marines have as mines got destroyed by the splash, but this was countered by the fact that gorges had ###### mobility. This worked beautifully in NS1, and I can understand that some changes are necessary to improve the game going into NS2 as it is intended to be a new game, and I don't understand how the game is going to be balanced as well from what I've seen so far in beta.
If aliens don't have anything range to use against forward marine bases, then they will need something like umbra to get close. Turret spam is currently way to powerful since lerks are unable to blie them down. Also a single decent marine can easily force the lerk back before he is able to do any real damage against these positons.
Also pushing with arcs is also to powerful, marines can easily stay back and take out everything aliens try to throw at them. Since lerks won't be able to go close enough to bilebomb the arcs(again vs decent marines) it forces aliens to simply overpower the marines with skulk/fade play.
Lets just wait for the Lerk Bile Bomb tweaks. I'm sure it'll be fine. Personally I feel that 30 res for a Lerk is too pricey but if Bile Bomb becomes a formidable/balanced weapon it may make it worth the 3/5ths of a Fade (cost wise)
<!--quoteo(post=1914962:date=Mar 19 2012, 04:00 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 19 2012, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly :) I used to play DoD at the LAN centre I used to work in, but the soundtrack to DoD for me was Hybrid Theory by Linkin Park, just because that was the only album you could hear over the game noise in the headphones, when it came on the shop sound system. Even now, when I hear that album, I am running through the battlefields on DoD!
I believe the energy of the music, should balance with the intensity of the action, of course in a multiplayer game, that's very hard to do, unless you control the occurrence of battles (ala L4D director). All the classic singleplayer games are able to do this, even in Mario the music gets more intense as the gameplay does, hell even Tetris does it :)
I wish there was an easy way to detect if players were in battle in a multiplayer, so the music intensity could be ratcheted up a notch or two :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the idea of Linkin Park in a videogame, well, I would probably never play the game.
My idea for the relaxing music comes from NS1 which had great ambience in lighting and music (I think it used the Half-Life games graphics better than anything else produced in the modding community or by Valve).
It also comes from Bethesda games such as Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. The music for those games was composed by Jeremy Soule, and many people (including myself) will just start playing the game for the ambient lighting a music alone. Just becauuse a game is an action/sci-fi doesn't mean it has to have angry heavy metal type music playing. This pre-conceived notion is more based on what people have been conditioned to accept as "Standard"
Mass Effect 1 (only the first game) had great music and sounds in this regard as well. In fact I think taking some inspiration from that style is a great direction (among many possible directions) for Natural Selection.
The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series doesn't have music during the game, but it has GREAT ambient sound that sets the tone and atmosphere perfectly. You hear sounds coming from a distance as well as nearby that make you hesitant to proceed forward.
Dead Space had amazing game sounds, such as the sound of opening doors, selecting items, using weapons, and the ambient sounds of machinery. They were realistic while not being abrasive.
I'm not saying all the music should be soothing slow music. I'm saying the music and game sounds should not be abrasive. Music can make people calm, clear-headed, and mentally aware, or it can make people angry or depressed. Both kinds of music exist. The important thing is to use music that causes the players to return to the game. I'm not a professional musician, but I have studied music for over 15 years and what I am saying is that the overall tone of the music should make players want to play the game for the generally welcoming or relaxing effect it has on them. Music and sound has subtle, esoteric effects. So when I use this word "relaxing" you cannot jump to what you may stereotypically think of as slow music. These are effects that people do not necessarily even notice when they are playing the game, but they are there.
<!--quoteo(post=1914966:date=Mar 19 2012, 04:13 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 19 2012, 04:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is not really defining "combat" for music feedback in the game. the problem is to define the time before you enter combat for a transistion in music, which should be as smooth and accurate as possible. the best thing you can do is make good guesses about the next players actions based off statistics, extrapolate that and "guess" how to change the music. think about a horror movie, where the music gets more and more exciting until the main actor finally looks around the corner -> finds nothing, music calms down and then out of the sudden a skulk comes from above (together with a rapid change in music) and kills you :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I know it's build armory then research shot's, but how long does that take?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you rush, I think you can SG in 20-30 seconds?
I regularly start it as soon as my armory builds, and it takes 30 seconds. Meanwhile the skulks on the other team are getting to 27-28 pres each, since there's no res from kills even if they dominate my entire team. It's so fast that if the shift and celerity were in the game, you wouldn't be able to get celerity skulks before shotguns reach your hive (if the marines choose to do this). On top of that, this doesn't even matter because good shotgun aim trumps anything 1 hive aliens can do pretty nicely.
Stuff like this is a lot more important to the game than whether you can get a hive at 5:00, because that's obviously going to change in build 201, but the shotgun/lerk relationship has basically always been like this. It should be pretty intuitive that the lifeform which offers long range attacks (spikes) is the answer to an early investment in shotguns, but that isn't the case.
Are you sure you're not playing against people who stand still away from teammates/armories/medpacks and just let you whittle them down?
If you check the game's code, spike damage even ramps up at close range (except it's suicide to use it up close, especially without the shotgun attack as of build 200)
regarding the skulk sound.. the problem with the skulk bite is not because it has a bad sound.. its the constant repetition of it for the whole time u are chewing on the resnode. the sound needs to be loud so that u can hear it when the other team is shooting and it works well in that context., but it is too much when u are killing a structure.. this is something i brought up to charlie b4, ideally we would want a separate bite animation/sound for structures so that i could make a custom sound for it that works well for that situation. i imagine it as a looping animation where the skulk latches onto the structure and kind of rips and pulls at it. its something we havent done because it requires new animations for first and thirdperson and new code, so its a lot of work just to fix an annoying sound. last time i spoke to charlie about it he agreed that it would be a good idea to do eventually,. no ETA on it.
the sound its self is based on a dog barking sound, just like with a real dog, it barks at u once or twise once u will get scared, if it keeps barking all night u will get annoyed.
also there will be round start music coming in soon, its part of a new dynamic ingame music system we r working on.
also i disagree that game sound needs to be soothing and relaxing, in fact i find 'relaxing' music really annoying! it depends on the game tho, but relaxing sound for an action scifi shooter?? i dont think so..
Exactly :) I used to play DoD at the LAN centre I used to work in, but the soundtrack to DoD for me was Hybrid Theory by Linkin Park, just because that was the only album you could hear over the game noise in the headphones, when it came on the shop sound system. Even now, when I hear that album, I am running through the battlefields on DoD!
I believe the energy of the music, should balance with the intensity of the action, of course in a multiplayer game, that's very hard to do, unless you control the occurrence of battles (ala L4D director). All the classic singleplayer games are able to do this, even in Mario the music gets more intense as the gameplay does, hell even Tetris does it :)
I wish there was an easy way to detect if players were in battle in a multiplayer, so the music intensity could be ratcheted up a notch or two :)
I think people complains mainly about the metallic bite sound, not the normal one. It's WAY too loud, volume should be reduce by ~50%.
The lerk flight sound is also annoying, I guess it's not final but right now it doesn't sound like air friction at all and it's also a bit too loud, it should be quite subtle imo.
Bilebomb doesn't do any damage so what is this post? I don't even...
Marines complain "lame lame lame" because lerk is a minor annoyance to them. "Oh no! Our comm station lost half of one percent!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Emh what? BileBomb from Lerk takes down 20% of an extractor ( 1 bomb ).
And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting.
Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.
And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting.
Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What server was that? Because HBZ changes the values to something much higher.
A great example of the damage splitting the server community up with balance changes does. Making testing/feedback even more difficult (albeit with the best of intentions).
So on HBZ Lerk is better then "normal" ones?
On the HBZ the bilebomb is viable. Its easy for me to bilebomb a base down even with 4-5 marines inside the base(3-4 biles go out/in again) on HBZ. Even if they keep the buldings alive I can keep them stuck in base to win the game.
However if there were aimers on the server I might have difficulty vs 1 marine + commander. Would like to try that in a gather.
I should be able to bilebomb base(the areas are usually rather open) and run away when marines come to defend, just forcing 1 marine to stay there would be good enough.
I think it will be very hard to use bilebomb in competitive matches, marines will easily just shoot down a lerk who tries to come close to bilebomb. if there are 2-3 marines together or just a single shotgun he might get 1 -2 bile in before escaping with low hp. I think aliens will rather go with fade/skulk combos than lerk to get the job done.
--
Also noticed that bilebomb does minor damage to marine armor, I think the armor damage should be increased to make it useful.
And if you fly around the map and keep harrasing like this the marines will go crazy and have to start protecting.
Its not the "BOMB" that does the damage.. its the ACID. The Dot is very powerFull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An absolutely perfect bulseye of a hit with bile bomb deals 4% damage to an infantry portal, which has less health than an extractor. Anything outside of a direct hit deals about 1% damage. I don't know what server you were playing on, but they must have seriously modded their damage.
Well the 3 HBZ servers is the only ones im playing on cuz i have under 40ping there.
And if its x3 more damage as normal the LERKS sound very bad on other servers.
It will need some major tuning, aliens completely lack a way to attack sieges from range. Few decent aimers or just turrets can easily prevent lerk from bile bombing.
Also pushing with arcs is also to powerful, marines can easily stay back and take out everything aliens try to throw at them. Since lerks won't be able to go close enough to bilebomb the arcs(again vs decent marines) it forces aliens to simply overpower the marines with skulk/fade play.
Personally I feel that 30 res for a Lerk is too pricey but if Bile Bomb becomes a formidable/balanced weapon it may make it worth the 3/5ths of a Fade (cost wise)
I believe the energy of the music, should balance with the intensity of the action, of course in a multiplayer game, that's very hard to do, unless you control the occurrence of battles (ala L4D director). All the classic singleplayer games are able to do this, even in Mario the music gets more intense as the gameplay does, hell even Tetris does it :)
I wish there was an easy way to detect if players were in battle in a multiplayer, so the music intensity could be ratcheted up a notch or two :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the idea of Linkin Park in a videogame, well, I would probably never play the game.
My idea for the relaxing music comes from NS1 which had great ambience in lighting and music (I think it used the Half-Life games graphics better than anything else produced in the modding community or by Valve).
It also comes from Bethesda games such as Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. The music for those games was composed by Jeremy Soule, and many people (including myself) will just start playing the game for the ambient lighting a music alone. Just becauuse a game is an action/sci-fi doesn't mean it has to have angry heavy metal type music playing. This pre-conceived notion is more based on what people have been conditioned to accept as "Standard"
Mass Effect 1 (only the first game) had great music and sounds in this regard as well. In fact I think taking some inspiration from that style is a great direction (among many possible directions) for Natural Selection.
The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series doesn't have music during the game, but it has GREAT ambient sound that sets the tone and atmosphere perfectly. You hear sounds coming from a distance as well as nearby that make you hesitant to proceed forward.
Dead Space had amazing game sounds, such as the sound of opening doors, selecting items, using weapons, and the ambient sounds of machinery. They were realistic while not being abrasive.
I'm not saying all the music should be soothing slow music. I'm saying the music and game sounds should not be abrasive. Music can make people calm, clear-headed, and mentally aware, or it can make people angry or depressed. Both kinds of music exist. The important thing is to use music that causes the players to return to the game. I'm not a professional musician, but I have studied music for over 15 years and what I am saying is that the overall tone of the music should make players want to play the game for the generally welcoming or relaxing effect it has on them. Music and sound has subtle, esoteric effects. So when I use this word "relaxing" you cannot jump to what you may stereotypically think of as slow music. These are effects that people do not necessarily even notice when they are playing the game, but they are there.
Interesting and insightful post