<!--quoteo(post=1846770:date=May 17 2011, 06:07 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ May 17 2011, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1846770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we ban the IP of this spammer mods, he's posted 5 times. Thx.
And yeah the guide documents are pretty out of date now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
replying in the thread is quite useless, use the report function instead.
Hey, I read the guidelines yesterday. And today, and the first video link by bioware... does not work anymore, motionbox has been bought by HP. I don't know where the video is, and I don't know the title of the video.
Can you please do 3 things:
1, link me to the video here. 2, update the video link in the pdf. 3, include the title of the video in the guidelines in case this happens again, so we can just google it.
DUN DUN DUN.
if I find anymore broken links, I'll post em up in this same post.
Do mappers need to change anything to help the recast pathing work to it's fullest potential? How do we place detours in if an entity finds a crack so to speak?
There is a new option on props <u>Pathing Include</u> <b>True/False</b> - False to exlude the prop from the post load mesh generation so it loads faster the more props you exclude. Reduce memory as well?? - - Exclude things like fine detail props or props that already have a normal surface behind them but experiment with it.
I think the best approach is to filter select props only and select the entire level and set them to false then go through setting the most obvious path forming props to true.
You probably can exclude props above a certain height level? Have a play around.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Guys, just a quick question..
How high should the ceiling be above the tech point, so the hive animation correctly attaches to the ceiling in game? I know the hive slightly hangs into the floor, so it's not the actual model size :)
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
There aren't any hard and fast rules about this yet because we haven't completely finalised how the hive attaches itself to its surroundings. Ideally it would be something dynamic which seeks out and attaches to the most appropriate nearby surface but obviously that's not a trivial thing to implement. My advice is not to worry about it too much. We have some tech point rooms in unreleased maps with some pretty high ceilings so unless you've gone totally nuts you won't be facing the same issues as we are. Other than that, just make sure that the ceilings aren't so low that they clip into the hive itself.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
The hives in Summit aren't perfectly attached at some locations, too, but as Insane mentioned that'll be adressed eventually. There's actually a green hive with tech point model that can be used as help to build proper geometry around the tech points; just search the props for tech_point and it should be the last one, then rotate it and align it with your actual tech point entity to get an idea how the hive will look like.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Thanks for the help all.
One more thing.. I can't find any Glass/Window textures in the spark editor, yet I have seen plenty of windows on maps. Can someone point me in the right direction to getting some glass textures?
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1892995:date=Jan 7 2012, 09:41 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 7 2012, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the help all.
One more thing.. I can't find any Glass/Window textures in the spark editor, yet I have seen plenty of windows on maps. Can someone point me in the right direction to getting some glass textures?
Thanks again :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soul_Rider, to my knowledge there isn't a glass texture, but you can use the glass/window prop and resize it. Can't remember the exact name, just search for glass or window.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1892971:date=Jan 7 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jan 7 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892971"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There aren't any hard and fast rules about this yet because we haven't completely finalised how the hive attaches itself to its surroundings. Ideally it would be something dynamic which seeks out and attaches to the most appropriate nearby surface but obviously that's not a trivial thing to implement. My advice is not to worry about it too much. We have some tech point rooms in unreleased maps with some pretty high ceilings so unless you've gone totally nuts you won't be facing the same issues as we are. Other than that, just make sure that the ceilings aren't so low that they clip into the hive itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Insane, thanks for addressing this - I've had to place my tech points on a 'pedestal' to make the hive look right because of the extremely high ceilings. Hope it can be fixed soon so it looks better from a commander's point of view.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
One more point - The marine start requires a tech point, resource node and power point to all be in the <b>same</b> location, otherwise aliens have the res advantage. But because of pathing issues causing the cysts not to be able to find the harvester, why not just let the harvester live if it is in the same location as the hive, ie. treat the harvester just like a marine extractor? And then let the path find it's way <b>from</b> the harvester to the hive, instead of from the hive to the harvester.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893019:date=Jan 7 2012, 12:15 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 7 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't solve the pathing issue as that bug goes both ways :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but the path breaks in the middle - usually there is a gap - if you could meet half-way from each side, that might work. From how I see the cysts connect, I get the feeling that the path finding starts from the hive.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Quick Question about the guidelines. I've been setting my map up with 2 techs with res nodes, and the remainder of the tech nodes have no direct res.
Random start is now in for teams, so they can start anywhere, but this breaks my map, and any map that follows the official guidelines, as I can have aliens spawn at left tech point, and I get to follow a pathfinding trail of cysts all the way to one of the res points at double.
I know I can specify a starting place for marines and aliens as recommended in the guide, but those layouts do not work with random spawn, which wasn't yet available when the guidelines were written
Do the Dev's want this to be a random spawn game? If so the maps will need to be designed more like NS1 with res closer to techs, or do they want fixed spawn, and the layouts suggested in the guidelines?
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893141:date=Jan 8 2012, 11:37 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 8 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893141"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do the Dev's want this to be a random spawn game? If so the maps will need to be designed more like NS1 with res closer to techs, or do they want fixed spawn, and the layouts suggested in the guidelines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soul, you can still have fixed spawns if you want by disabling random spawns on all but two of the tech points, then choosing those as either alien or marine. Personally, I think that a map still has longevity with fixed spawns.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1893200:date=Jan 9 2012, 05:55 AM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Jan 9 2012, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1893200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soul, you can still have fixed spawns if you want by disabling random spawns on all but two of the tech points, then choosing those as either alien or marine. Personally, I think that a map still has longevity with fixed spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Ns2_sample#Random_and_Fixed_starting_locations" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...rting_locations</a>
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Starting to play around with the editor. How am I intended to load the map now? With everything in gcfs there isn't a directory in which to insert it. Do I need to extract them?
<!--quoteo(post=1864245:date=Jul 28 2011, 04:52 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jul 28 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1864245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a new option on props <u>Pathing Include</u> <b>True/False</b> - False to exlude the prop from the post load mesh generation so it loads faster the more props you exclude. Reduce memory as well?? - Exclude things like fine detail props or props that already have a normal surface behind them but experiment with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I dont understand this "post load mesh generation" thing. It's something like func_detail in Source?
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1904611:date=Feb 18 2012, 08:22 PM:name=Rudy.cz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rudy.cz @ Feb 18 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually I dont understand this "post load mesh generation" thing. It's something like func_detail in Source?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the mesh that's generated is the pathing mesh. It's created when the level is loading and it defines the AI pathing for MACs/Drivers and so on. It's set up like this since it's preferable to the older system where the level designer would have to place pathing waypoints by hand.
On the topic of pathing and maps, I've noticed that drifters and ARCs seem to use the same pathing data even though one is a ground unit and the other 'hovars'. Is this just a limitation of how pathing is calculated? This also seems to affect Cyst pathing as well. a small ledge or railing requires the drifter or cyst to path the long way around instead of going 'as the crow flies'.
This is one of the reasons the cyst placement can seem really buggy in some places. The cargo/alien start on Tram is a good example. You have to place cysts around the ramps/steps to get to the techpoint and node. You can't just place a cyst up the platform as seems logically consistent. Will pathing get more of a 3D understanding of spaces in the future (specifically for cysts and hovaring units)?
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
It does have some kind of vertical aspect to it, as is evident on ns2_turtle cyst placement (e.g. on top of the crates), but it's very confusing and often doesn't really make any sense, since it doesn't work the same everywhere. It also often goes through walls from a very specific place (e.g. ns2_summit, from the lower part of the vent in crevice to atrium or ns2_turtle from the western crates in cargo to tech).
I'd very much like to have drifters really fly, not hover, since it creates so many issues and even more restrictions to what you can do in a map. Ladders and elevators aren't really of much use if you have to create an extra path for drifters for every room from every reasonable direction. The problem is most evident on the ns_tanith remake, as you cannot get to satellite or chemical from anywhere else on the map without sending the drifter through marine start and vice versa. Cyst placement only works due to stuff that shouldn't be visible/buildable upon in the commander view.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
There is an option in the pathing setting that defines how much a drifter/mac can step up, maybe playing with that they could climb up higher things but it might also allow whips and arcs to jump up over big height differences.
Those guideline videos are fantastic, and make me feel much more confident about making my mapping dreams a reality; the likes of Quark and Hammer on HL1/NS really broke my brain and I never managed to bring Trantius to fruition.
I'm also happy that random spawns aren't a requirement. I've got absolutely nothing against them, but my concept is very deeply thematic and having random spawns completely breaks the whole idea.
Probably nothing stopping me from making a random spawn version of the map, though, eliminating some of the themes that make random spawning so objectionable and tweaking the layout. We'll see how I get on with Spark first!
Thanks for the videos, anyway. I'll be watching them at least twice.
Comments
And yeah the guide documents are pretty out of date now.
And yeah the guide documents are pretty out of date now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
replying in the thread is quite useless, use the report function instead.
Can you please do 3 things:
1, link me to the video here.
2, update the video link in the pdf.
3, include the title of the video in the guidelines in case this happens again, so we can just google it.
DUN DUN DUN.
if I find anymore broken links, I'll post em up in this same post.
How do we place detours in if an entity finds a crack so to speak?
- False to exlude the prop from the post load mesh generation so it loads faster the more props you exclude. Reduce memory as well??
- - Exclude things like fine detail props or props that already have a normal surface behind them but experiment with it.
I think the best approach is to filter select props only and select the entire level and set them to false then go through setting the most obvious path forming props to true.
You probably can exclude props above a certain height level? Have a play around.
How high should the ceiling be above the tech point, so the hive animation correctly attaches to the ceiling in game? I know the hive slightly hangs into the floor, so it's not the actual model size :)
Thanks :)
There's actually a green hive with tech point model that can be used as help to build proper geometry around the tech points; just search the props for tech_point and it should be the last one, then rotate it and align it with your actual tech point entity to get an idea how the hive will look like.
One more thing.. I can't find any Glass/Window textures in the spark editor, yet I have seen plenty of windows on maps. Can someone point me in the right direction to getting some glass textures?
Thanks again :)
One more thing.. I can't find any Glass/Window textures in the spark editor, yet I have seen plenty of windows on maps. Can someone point me in the right direction to getting some glass textures?
Thanks again :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soul_Rider, to my knowledge there isn't a glass texture, but you can use the glass/window prop and resize it. Can't remember the exact name, just search for glass or window.
Hey Insane, thanks for addressing this - I've had to place my tech points on a 'pedestal' to make the hive look right because of the extremely high ceilings. Hope it can be fixed soon so it looks better from a commander's point of view.
Yeah, but the path breaks in the middle - usually there is a gap - if you could meet half-way from each side, that might work. From how I see the cysts connect, I get the feeling that the path finding starts from the hive.
Random start is now in for teams, so they can start anywhere, but this breaks my map, and any map that follows the official guidelines, as I can have aliens spawn at left tech point, and I get to follow a pathfinding trail of cysts all the way to one of the res points at double.
I know I can specify a starting place for marines and aliens as recommended in the guide, but those layouts do not work with random spawn, which wasn't yet available when the guidelines were written
Do the Dev's want this to be a random spawn game? If so the maps will need to be designed more like NS1 with res closer to techs, or do they want fixed spawn, and the layouts suggested in the guidelines?
Sorry I am a bit confused over this. :)
Soul, you can still have fixed spawns if you want by disabling random spawns on all but two of the tech points, then choosing those as either alien or marine. Personally, I think that a map still has longevity with fixed spawns.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Ns2_sample#Random_and_Fixed_starting_locations" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/inde...rting_locations</a>
Editor.exe is in the Natural Selection 2 folder, which doesn't even require Steam. In case you wanted to avoid the Launchpad.
- False to exlude the prop from the post load mesh generation so it loads faster the more props you exclude. Reduce memory as well??
- Exclude things like fine detail props or props that already have a normal surface behind them but experiment with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I dont understand this "post load mesh generation" thing. It's something like func_detail in Source?
No, the mesh that's generated is the pathing mesh. It's created when the level is loading and it defines the AI pathing for MACs/Drivers and so on. It's set up like this since it's preferable to the older system where the level designer would have to place pathing waypoints by hand.
This is one of the reasons the cyst placement can seem really buggy in some places. The cargo/alien start on Tram is a good example. You have to place cysts around the ramps/steps to get to the techpoint and node. You can't just place a cyst up the platform as seems logically consistent. Will pathing get more of a 3D understanding of spaces in the future (specifically for cysts and hovaring units)?
I'd very much like to have drifters really fly, not hover, since it creates so many issues and even more restrictions to what you can do in a map. Ladders and elevators aren't really of much use if you have to create an extra path for drifters for every room from every reasonable direction. The problem is most evident on the ns_tanith remake, as you cannot get to satellite or chemical from anywhere else on the map without sending the drifter through marine start and vice versa. Cyst placement only works due to stuff that shouldn't be visible/buildable upon in the commander view.
I'm also happy that random spawns aren't a requirement. I've got absolutely nothing against them, but my concept is very deeply thematic and having random spawns completely breaks the whole idea.
Probably nothing stopping me from making a random spawn version of the map, though, eliminating some of the themes that make random spawning so objectionable and tweaking the layout. We'll see how I get on with Spark first!
Thanks for the videos, anyway. I'll be watching them at least twice.