IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
you pre-ordered a game. thats all. the fact you get to play it as a work in progress is not only unprecedented at the level they did (from an engine test onward) but its also a BONUS. a bonus that yes, does help them with feedback, but does this <u>entitle </u>anyone to be so crass and condescending? <b>No</b>. So there's no defending that, you are not entitled to anything but a refund.
as for trying and reversing features.... how the hell does this upset anyone so much? i'm happy they tried so much! i'm happy they tried multiple commanders! what great creativity and brainstorming - yea it didn't work out - but guess how often that happens to features while a game is <u>being developed</u>??
edit: i believe your edit quote is merely presumptuous in that it is assuming the devs were trying ideas for the sake of being different. i don't think a single one of them would ever say this occurred in this way. do you?
I know that there are some players that just play after a new build to check out the changes and drop off the map until the next build. The changes in every build have a tendency to disorient a player until they adjust to them. Think about all the players that spend hours playing even in NS2s unfinished state. Look at the growing number of organized teams and the quality of play. When I read complaints about how NS2 isn’t NS or how the devs aren’t doing it right, I just think; “Gift your game to someone that wants it and go play something else.†.†BTW when I saw the phrase, “angle investor†I thought it’s supposed “angel investor†but on second thought I like angle better. NS2 players are a bit obtuse.
<!--quoteo(post=1918678:date=Mar 27 2012, 06:20 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 06:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you pre-ordered a game. thats all. the fact you get to play it as a work in progress is not only unprecedented at the level they did (from an engine test onward) but its also a BONUS. a bonus that yes, does help them with feedback, but does this <u>entitle </u>anyone to be so crass and condescending? <b>No</b>. So there's no defending that, you are not entitled to anything but a refund.
as for trying and reversing features.... how the hell does this upset anyone so much? i'm happy they tried so much! i'm happy they tried multiple commanders! what great creativity and brainstorming - yea it didn't work out - but guess how often that happens to features while a game is <u>being developed</u>??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is they wasted time. Look how long this has taken and as player said we are 5ish months from release without clearly defined roles, game destroying mechanics (imo), and performance problems (which are getting better every patch, but when will everything be included so it only has up to go).
As player also said they opened up the alpha and beta as a purchase gimmick to sell more copies. It worked. They stated somewhere that the influx of money from the blind preorders allowed for them to continue developing and not cut things we are going to see soon. Exo suit was one on the chopping room floor and i think DI also.
The being crass and condescending comes down to simply this: People want their opinion to matter. The Devs have a vision and will only be moved away from that if there is overwhelming criticism or support for the idea. So when a thread pops up that threatens what someone enjoys about the game we all go nutts trying to squash any sense of support. I am very guilty of this myself in the idea making and idea squashing.
We are all frustrated one way or the other. Those who hate the game as is post in frustration. Those who love the game as is post in frustration that it might be changed.
I myself hate and love the current patch as seen through my many posts lately. I so want this game to be successful. It is my one shinning hope in a game market i feel has lost a lot of its luster. I wouldnt post with strong emotion if i didnt care so much about this game. Other are guilty of this as well. Hard not to get attached to a game we have played for 8+ years. Especially when some new guy comes in and says "this is how it should be". A lot of the entitlement comes from a sense of an earned spot through the years of play. I do respect the opinion of an '03 poster than a '12 poster. Sometimes accounts get recreated and other instances. Problem is we have no sense of seniority other than that forum date. You can be anyone or anything on the internet. So pardon the entitlement of the vets. We have been around a long time and wish our opinion mattered more. The Devs do an impossible job of balancing the two. Hats off to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 02:35 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is we have no sense of seniority other than that forum date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah definitely. Because to hell with judging a post based solely on the merit of the contents of that post amirite?
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 03:35 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is they wasted time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree. Just because they ended up removing/changing features from the way they were orginally implemented does not make them a waste of time. Any software developer will tell you that.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The being crass and condescending comes down to simply this: People want their opinion to matter. The Devs have a vision and will only be moved away from that if there is overwhelming criticism or support for the idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and you think behaving like that will help anyone absorb your arguments any better? quite the contrary. its distracting, unnecessary, and all that is needed for your feedback is your logical, tactful argument. anything else is your personal flair which is not asked for or required. here's a quote from the AMA on reddit with Flayra: Q: Do you guys ever get overwhelmed by the feedback on the forums? I know sometimes it can be overly negative or critical. A: Yes we do get overwhelmed, to the point where sometimes we can't look or have to take a break for awhile.
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are all frustrated one way or the other. Those who hate the game as is post in frustration. Those who love the game as is post in frustration that it might be changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I, personally, am not frustrated? In fact, i know plenty of people who love the game and are not "frustrated." you are assuming and projecting your frustration inaccurately, i am sorry.
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So pardon the entitlement of the vets. We have been around a long time and wish our opinion mattered more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will try. But i will also attempt to persuade your kind to drop that mentality - it only gives you a bad name. Entitlement is not a sought after character trait for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1918698:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:46 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 27 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Software-developers with only a handful of colleagues, and a looming deadline with lots and lots of things to be done still?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sounds like every embedded engineering project i've worked on, and like every indie game i've ever heard of? their deadline has been and will always be their own. they've broken deadlines before many times. i'm glad, and so should you, as long as we end up with a polished, fun product. patience is a virtue :)
<!--quoteo(post=1918716:date=Mar 27 2012, 08:15 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 27 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->their deadline has been and will always be their own. they've broken deadlines before many times. i'm glad, and so should you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238584287_seinfeld_had_enough.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1918001:date=Mar 26 2012, 11:17 AM:name=Jaunty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jaunty @ Mar 26 2012, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First of all, I loved Natural Selection 1 and really appreciate this team for creating it. I've played it since the first day it was released, then stopped once players started dwindling. Even if NS2 turned out to be terrible (which it won't) I'd still feel good knowing I invested some money toward this development team.
Just bought the game a few hours ago. Here are my thoughts so far (which have probably been addressed already, but I'd like to add my voice as well):
- I don't like the new gorge--at all. They used to be the brains behind every game, and it was incredibly fun to have your team depend on you to build structures. You could sneak into an area and put up a hive, build a wall of chambers to stop enemy progression, and if you needed an upgrade you didn't have to depend on a commander to get it done; you just built the required chamber. The NS1 gorge was probably my favorite thing about NS. I loved being able to turtle up anywhere and hide safely behind my structures. You could make little sanctuaries for you and your teammates, at least until marines got grenade launchers :P
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it. I realize the gorge can't have all that many functions because it will take the job of the alien commander, but then that brings me to my next issue:
- The alien commander. What was the reasoning behind adding this? Aliens were refreshing because of their independence. Compared to the marines they were much less structured and it was a great change of pace. Now, they're not so different from marines--having to depend on one person to get things built. I just don't understand the need for this addition, and it seriously ruins a lot of the fun for me.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree with you.
The Aliens were indeed very refreshing because of their independence. And while it may have been harder to balance that way, it was absolutely worth it.
Now its the same as with marines: <b>One</b> person can (and has to) make or break the game. While I'm certain that the roles of the Gorge and the Alien Commander will be a lot better in the future, I still think that it was the wrong decision.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember, more often than not, NS1 games that played out like a constant tug-of-war, lasting much longer than NS2 rounds and having a smoother sense of progression. Everything was slower and more methodical, and victory was very rewarding. NS2 on the other hand is so much faster, more straight-forward and action-y, like it's trying to appeal to some other audience, yet the ones who really want to play this game are mostly NS1 veterans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do have to agree with this as well, I really don't want NS 1 to be some sort of hybrid between combat mode and classic, which is what it is slowly growing out to be. Aliens just rush into marines head-on, since they can be spotted on the minimap when not attacking anyway, hives are thrown up quickly, map control is established a lot quicker, resources are distributed a lot quicker, etc.
The game really feels a little too fast-paced at times, NS shouldn't be quake or counter strike, for me personally the slower, more careful and gradual 'tug of war' gameplay defined natural selection.
Im not adding anything to this thread and will stop wasting space. Pointless to argue with someone where i really dont care what they think. Convincing the devs is what matters and certain issues they are dead set on. Either way they will make money if i promote NS2 or NS:Spark.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
played NS1 frequently, but only pubs. played competitively with all Quakes and CS tho.
following NS2 since week of source video of DI, from 2006. (six years ago!) pre ordered before alpha released. been playing since day 1 engine test.
my question to you: what does this matter? these aren't even considered "credentials" .. someone who joined yesterday can still have a valid argument or even an opinion regarding patience with a product?
@player : if you are not glad that they have placed quality over an arbitrary deadline date, idk what to say, except maybe try to play something else in the meantime to avoid your frustration?
<b>edit</b>: Risingsun edited his post; i was answering his question of when i "entered the NS2 process". and i agree full-heartedly, convincing the devs about issues does matter, i've never argued against this. My point (which was <b>the </b>argument) from earlier posts still stands.
<!--quoteo(post=1918761:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this is also wasting vast amounts of money...
Had they just straight ported NS1 to spark then gradually tries implementing new features they would be significantly ahead now...
If they still don't want to learn from this mistake and keep making radical changes that no one likes then having to roll back fine..
They just need to realise they are wearing down fans and wasting $$$..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally if that happened I'd ask for my money back, I'm not paying for a port of a 6-7 year old game.
<!--quoteo(post=1918814:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:00 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 28 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->played NS1 frequently, but only pubs. played competitively with all Quakes and CS tho.
following NS2 since week of source video of DI, from 2006. (six years ago!) pre ordered before alpha released. been playing since day 1 engine test.
my question to you: what does this matter? these aren't even considered "credentials" .. someone who joined yesterday can still have a valid argument or even an opinion regarding patience with a product?
@player : if you are not glad that they have placed quality over an arbitrary deadline date, idk what to say, except maybe try to play something else in the meantime to avoid your frustration?
<b>edit</b>: Risingsun edited his post; i was answering his question of when i "entered the NS2 process". and i agree full-heartedly, convincing the devs about issues does matter, i've never argued against this. My point (which was <b>the </b>argument) from earlier posts still stands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry. I tried to catch my post. It isnt helpful and would cause more arguing. Im frustrated with core design choices and cant do anything about it but post. Their game. Their money. Their company. Im done. As u said it isnt worth the frustration.
@Tre the game imo is not fun as it is now. Power nodes, op onos, and crappy CCs are to blame. One is getting changed, one should be changed, and the last Flayra wont budge on.
@Chris What the hell do you think a sequal is. No one said a direct port. Just keep the damn core mechanics and things that WORKED the damn same.
<!--quoteo(post=1918770:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 27 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918770"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do have to agree with this as well, I really don't want NS 1 to be some sort of hybrid between combat mode and classic, which is what it is slowly growing out to be. Aliens just rush into marines head-on, since they can be spotted on the minimap when not attacking anyway, hives are thrown up quickly, map control is established a lot quicker, resources are distributed a lot quicker, etc.
The game really feels a little too fast-paced at times, NS shouldn't be quake or counter strike, for me personally the slower, more careful and gradual 'tug of war' gameplay defined natural selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually NS2 IS hybrid between classic and combat mode. this was confirmed by charlie long ago in one of his posts. I never liked it, and was against it but its one of those things charlie refuses to change. (ex. alien commander, here to stay no matter what we say)
Charlie reply regrading these and other things, we must not like change. Well, change is good if it works, change is great if it makes sense...
"What the hell do you think a sequal is. No one said a direct port. Just keep the damn core mechanics and things that WORKED the damn same. "
I honestly do not know what you people are talking about. This game is fantastic. It has the similar feel of NS1 but a whole bunch of new features that make for a unique experience.
I played several games the other night, each was a struggle and the team which came out on top was generally the one who had a better strategy and teamwork which is just the way it should be. In each of these games I went either Commander, rine res ######, Gorge, fade etc so my role in each game was totally different to the next.
edit: Alien Commander I was very skeptical of at the start, but the more you play it the better it seems. Especially with how it works in the latest patch. I remember one game recently where I was a Gorge building a forward position with the comm, telling him to drop crags and whips, catalyzing them to build faster and then hit umbra so my hydras would survive. The teamwork between the commander and Gorge is awesome, and exactly what I believe UWE is going for.
Haters gonna hate. I may not like something here or there but it captures the feel of NS1 for me and that's all I care about. I like that the somethings are fluid and change from patch to patch.
What would have been more interesting instead of having the current alien commander would have been able to have one person 'evolve' into an alien commander (queen) and then do the thing they do. Would have kept the NS1 gorge feel and made gameplay a bit different to its current iteration.
I have always felt back in NS1 whenever I commanded a game to feel left out of the fun and always thought it would have been more fun to have the commander out in the field directing deployment of machinery/items but that would be too much of a change in core mechanic/gameplay at this stage of development I think.
Current state of aliens is pretty good overall I feel. Need some fixing here and there but it's good to finally get the Onos in the field and see how gameplay evolves until it's final version when XO's are deployed.
<!--quoteo(post=1918824:date=Mar 28 2012, 02:12 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 28 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Chris What the hell do you think a sequal is. No one said a direct port. Just keep the damn core mechanics and things that WORKED the damn same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1918819:date=Mar 28 2012, 02:06 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 28 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1918761:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this is also wasting vast amounts of money...
Had they <b>just straight ported NS1 to spark</b> then gradually tries implementing new features they would be significantly ahead now...
If they still don't want to learn from this mistake and keep making radical changes that no one likes then having to roll back fine..
They just need to realise they are wearing down fans and wasting $$$..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally if that happened I'd ask for my money back, I'm not paying for a port of a 6-7 year old game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite a lot of people are, actually, the 'omg why didn't you just remake NS1 god' complaint is a fairly common one.
Apparently some people just want to relive the NS1 glory days again, and don't really care if the game is good, profitable, worth making, or anything else.
A sequel is a new game on the theme of the old one. GTA sequels are games where you run around stealing cars, shooting guns, evadine the police, and doing missions. Some of them are story driven, some of them let you fly around shooting dual uzis on a jetpack. Some are top down, some are 3d, the theme however is the same. The games are different but still part of the same series.
Half life games are games where you run around shooting aliens and are generally one long continuous story, which you control all the way through. HL1 had you fighting aliens in a secret underground science base. HL2 had you fighting transhumans and aliens in a dystopian aliens-have-taken-over-the-earth setting. The games are quite different but recognisably related.
Natural selection is a game where you have a team of humans and a team of aliens, and they fight each other using RTS structures to provide their spawns, and their weapons, and their upgrades, and their objectives. NS2 is probably more like its predecessor than either of the other two series I mentioned. 'Keep everything that worked the same' would seem to mean 'keep everything the same because NS1 was perfect and it shouldn't be changed ever except possibly for this one thing I personally didn't like'.
That's not a sequel, that's a port. And it'd be a waste of time. I played NS1 when it was new, quite enjoyed it, don't want to play it any more. Would like to play a properly running, balanced, and polished NS2 though. It's different enough to be interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1918940:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 28 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quite a lot of people are, actually, the 'omg why didn't you just remake NS1 god' complaint is a fairly common one.
Apparently some people just want to relive the NS1 glory days again, and don't really care if the game is good, profitable, worth making, or anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you not understand that the foundation of this sentiment is not so much the overglorification of NS1 (old-timers know it had\has issues that need to be resolved), but rather the intense dissatisfaction with regards to NS2 (both in terms of design-descions, as well as the technical ineptitude of the engine it is built on). So between the 2 games, the choice is simple, and the desire to impose NS1's design onto the wretched heap of poo we have now is very understandable, as by now it seems like the only way we'll ever see a proper NS-game.
No I can't understand it, because as I said, NS2 is very similar to NS1, whether or not you agree with the changes, it is very hard to understand why they make it 'not proper NS' unless you are a complete NS1 purist who literally thinks it was perfect and any deviation from it is heresy.
It also doesn't make any sense to complain about NS2 design decisions because of the engine being unstable. The design has nothing whatsoever to do with the engine, the NS2 engine test and the game we have now both run on more or less the same engine, and you could easily go back to that if you wanted to. Changing the design would have no bearing at all on the technical aspects of the engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1918965:date=Mar 28 2012, 09:06 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 28 2012, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So between the 2 games, the choice is simple, and the desire to impose NS1's design onto the wretched heap of poo we have now is very understandable, as by now it seems like the only way we'll ever see a proper NS-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow...NS2 is anything but a "wretched heap of poo." I feel bad for starting this thread and inviting people like you to comment. UWE has done a very fine job so far for a beta, even if it's not the same game we're all used to. I will miss the old gorge and lack of an alien commander, but it is not a game-breaker. There's still so much to like about NS2. I know I have expressed criticism as well, but I was respectful about it, and I'm excited about the future changes. Even if it's not NS1, it's still NS--and it's still damn fun.
I wasn't able to read every comment here, but we realize not everyone is going to like the direction we're going with NS2. Personally, I think it's a far better game already than NS1, but preferences and tastes vary.
I've tried to <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit" target="_blank">write up</a> as much as I could to convey the thought process behind the game. I'm not sure what else to say, except that the Gorge's role in NS1 was too central IMHO, and caused other players to yell at him if he did the wrong thing. Spending team resources from first-person is problematic to say the least, and something I really wanted to avoid this time around. We're always trying to improve the game to the best of our ability, and this is one of those changes that we believe in.
As far as all our other experiments go - much has been written about experimentation and willingness to fail. If you don't try some things that don't work, you need to start taking risks and do your job better. We truly believe that the best way to find out if something works or not (RKF, multiple commanders, etc.) is to release it to a large group of players. I realize that for some this will make them lose faith in us as developers. But we've advanced the game so much faster in partnership with the community (who make it abundantly clear when something is or is not working).
I shudder to think what game we would have right now if we withheld all these experiments until v1.0.
hm charlie i can tell from your post that you do care a lot about your audiences opinion. but keep in mind that criticism may sound harsher than it is meant to be. people who complain about certain development mainly show that they do care about the stuff you and the rest of uwe produce, and they want it to be good, just as you do. so please dont take it too serious, and keep developing the game we all care so much about :)
btw, you mentioned multiple commanders.. will they have a comeback? kharaa could benefit quite a bit from them, as advanced lifeforms could dump some of their spare pres in cysts without having the comm to exit the hive. marine comm has tons of tasks to fulfill and a second comm could help him out with caring about meds and nano shield micro-managment while the other one focuses on expanding and researching etc. i actually loved the idea of sharing the burden of being the mastermind of a team that usually doesnt forgive misdecisions (on public).
<!--quoteo(post=1919016:date=Mar 28 2012, 05:41 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2012, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't able to read every comment here, but we realize not everyone is going to like the direction we're going with NS2. Personally, I think it's a far better game already than NS1, but preferences and tastes vary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ai ai ai ai. Well, if mod-synchronization makes it in, and performance is at least doubled, it shan't be a problem.
Comments
the fact you get to play it as a work in progress is not only unprecedented at the level they did (from an engine test onward) but its also a BONUS. a bonus that yes, does help them with feedback, but does this <u>entitle </u>anyone to be so crass and condescending? <b>No</b>. So there's no defending that, you are not entitled to anything but a refund.
as for trying and reversing features.... how the hell does this upset anyone so much? i'm happy they tried so much! i'm happy they tried multiple commanders! what great creativity and brainstorming - yea it didn't work out - but guess how often that happens to features while a game is <u>being developed</u>??
edit: i believe your edit quote is merely presumptuous in that it is assuming the devs were trying ideas for the sake of being different. i don't think a single one of them would ever say this occurred in this way. do you?
the fact you get to play it as a work in progress is not only unprecedented at the level they did (from an engine test onward) but its also a BONUS. a bonus that yes, does help them with feedback, but does this <u>entitle </u>anyone to be so crass and condescending? <b>No</b>. So there's no defending that, you are not entitled to anything but a refund.
as for trying and reversing features.... how the hell does this upset anyone so much? i'm happy they tried so much! i'm happy they tried multiple commanders! what great creativity and brainstorming - yea it didn't work out - but guess how often that happens to features while a game is <u>being developed</u>??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is they wasted time. Look how long this has taken and as player said we are 5ish months from release without clearly defined roles, game destroying mechanics (imo), and performance problems (which are getting better every patch, but when will everything be included so it only has up to go).
As player also said they opened up the alpha and beta as a purchase gimmick to sell more copies. It worked. They stated somewhere that the influx of money from the blind preorders allowed for them to continue developing and not cut things we are going to see soon. Exo suit was one on the chopping room floor and i think DI also.
The being crass and condescending comes down to simply this: People want their opinion to matter. The Devs have a vision and will only be moved away from that if there is overwhelming criticism or support for the idea. So when a thread pops up that threatens what someone enjoys about the game we all go nutts trying to squash any sense of support. I am very guilty of this myself in the idea making and idea squashing.
We are all frustrated one way or the other. Those who hate the game as is post in frustration. Those who love the game as is post in frustration that it might be changed.
I myself hate and love the current patch as seen through my many posts lately. I so want this game to be successful. It is my one shinning hope in a game market i feel has lost a lot of its luster. I wouldnt post with strong emotion if i didnt care so much about this game. Other are guilty of this as well. Hard not to get attached to a game we have played for 8+ years. Especially when some new guy comes in and says "this is how it should be". A lot of the entitlement comes from a sense of an earned spot through the years of play. I do respect the opinion of an '03 poster than a '12 poster. Sometimes accounts get recreated and other instances. Problem is we have no sense of seniority other than that forum date. You can be anyone or anything on the internet. So pardon the entitlement of the vets. We have been around a long time and wish our opinion mattered more. The Devs do an impossible job of balancing the two. Hats off to them.
Now get rid of power nodes =D
*drained, sorry for the wall.
Yeah definitely. Because to hell with judging a post based solely on the merit of the contents of that post amirite?
Disagree. Just because they ended up removing/changing features from the way they were orginally implemented does not make them a waste of time. Any software developer will tell you that.
and you think behaving like that will help anyone absorb your arguments any better? quite the contrary. its distracting, unnecessary, and all that is needed for your feedback is your logical, tactful argument. anything else is your personal flair which is not asked for or required.
here's a quote from the AMA on reddit with Flayra:
Q: Do you guys ever get overwhelmed by the feedback on the forums? I know sometimes it can be overly negative or critical.
A: Yes we do get overwhelmed, to the point where sometimes we can't look or have to take a break for awhile.
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are all frustrated one way or the other. Those who hate the game as is post in frustration. Those who love the game as is post in frustration that it might be changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I, personally, am not frustrated? In fact, i know plenty of people who love the game and are not "frustrated."
you are assuming and projecting your frustration inaccurately, i am sorry.
<!--quoteo(post=1918689:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Mar 27 2012, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So pardon the entitlement of the vets. We have been around a long time and wish our opinion mattered more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will try. But i will also attempt to persuade your kind to drop that mentality - it only gives you a bad name. Entitlement is not a sought after character trait for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1918698:date=Mar 27 2012, 11:46 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 27 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Software-developers with only a handful of colleagues, and a looming deadline with lots and lots of things to be done still?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like every embedded engineering project i've worked on, and like every indie game i've ever heard of? their deadline has been and will always be their own. they've broken deadlines before many times. i'm glad, and so should you, as long as we end up with a polished, fun product. patience is a virtue :)
<img src="http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238584287_seinfeld_had_enough.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Just bought the game a few hours ago. Here are my thoughts so far (which have probably been addressed already, but I'd like to add my voice as well):
- I don't like the new gorge--at all. They used to be the brains behind every game, and it was incredibly fun to have your team depend on you to build structures. You could sneak into an area and put up a hive, build a wall of chambers to stop enemy progression, and if you needed an upgrade you didn't have to depend on a commander to get it done; you just built the required chamber. The NS1 gorge was probably my favorite thing about NS. I loved being able to turtle up anywhere and hide safely behind my structures. You could make little sanctuaries for you and your teammates, at least until marines got grenade launchers :P
Now...you get to heal people. And build hydras. And mini cysts. That's it. I realize the gorge can't have all that many functions because it will take the job of the alien commander, but then that brings me to my next issue:
- The alien commander. What was the reasoning behind adding this? Aliens were refreshing because of their independence. Compared to the marines they were much less structured and it was a great change of pace. Now, they're not so different from marines--having to depend on one person to get things built. I just don't understand the need for this addition, and it seriously ruins a lot of the fun for me.
What do you guys think? Do you miss the original alien team as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree with you.
The Aliens were indeed very refreshing because of their independence.
And while it may have been harder to balance that way, it was absolutely worth it.
Now its the same as with marines: <b>One</b> person can (and has to) make or break the game.
While I'm certain that the roles of the Gorge and the Alien Commander will be a lot better in the future, I still think that it was the wrong decision.
Had they just straight ported NS1 to spark then gradually tries implementing new features they would be significantly ahead now...
If they still don't want to learn from this mistake and keep making radical changes that no one likes then having to roll back fine..
They just need to realise they are wearing down fans and wasting $$$..
The game really feels a little too fast-paced at times, NS shouldn't be quake or counter strike, for me personally the slower, more careful and gradual 'tug of war' gameplay defined natural selection.
following NS2 since week of source video of DI, from 2006. (six years ago!)
pre ordered before alpha released.
been playing since day 1 engine test.
my question to you: what does this matter? these aren't even considered "credentials" .. someone who joined yesterday can still have a valid argument or even an opinion regarding patience with a product?
@player : if you are not glad that they have placed quality over an arbitrary deadline date, idk what to say, except maybe try to play something else in the meantime to avoid your frustration?
<b>edit</b>: Risingsun edited his post; i was answering his question of when i "entered the NS2 process".
and i agree full-heartedly, convincing the devs about issues does matter, i've never argued against this. My point (which was <b>the </b>argument) from earlier posts still stands.
Had they just straight ported NS1 to spark then gradually tries implementing new features they would be significantly ahead now...
If they still don't want to learn from this mistake and keep making radical changes that no one likes then having to roll back fine..
They just need to realise they are wearing down fans and wasting $$$..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally if that happened I'd ask for my money back, I'm not paying for a port of a 6-7 year old game.
following NS2 since week of source video of DI, from 2006. (six years ago!)
pre ordered before alpha released.
been playing since day 1 engine test.
my question to you: what does this matter? these aren't even considered "credentials" .. someone who joined yesterday can still have a valid argument or even an opinion regarding patience with a product?
@player : if you are not glad that they have placed quality over an arbitrary deadline date, idk what to say, except maybe try to play something else in the meantime to avoid your frustration?
<b>edit</b>: Risingsun edited his post; i was answering his question of when i "entered the NS2 process".
and i agree full-heartedly, convincing the devs about issues does matter, i've never argued against this. My point (which was <b>the </b>argument) from earlier posts still stands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry. I tried to catch my post. It isnt helpful and would cause more arguing. Im frustrated with core design choices and cant do anything about it but post. Their game. Their money. Their company. Im done. As u said it isnt worth the frustration.
@Tre the game imo is not fun as it is now. Power nodes, op onos, and crappy CCs are to blame. One is getting changed, one should be changed, and the last Flayra wont budge on.
@Chris What the hell do you think a sequal is. No one said a direct port. Just keep the damn core mechanics and things that WORKED the damn same.
The game really feels a little too fast-paced at times, NS shouldn't be quake or counter strike, for me personally the slower, more careful and gradual 'tug of war' gameplay defined natural selection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually NS2 IS hybrid between classic and combat mode. this was confirmed by charlie long ago in one of his posts. I never liked it, and was against it but its one of those things charlie refuses to change. (ex. alien commander, here to stay no matter what we say)
Charlie reply regrading these and other things, we must not like change. Well, change is good if it works, change is great if it makes sense...
"What the hell do you think a sequal is. No one said a direct port. Just keep the damn core mechanics and things that WORKED the damn same. "
aman!
I played several games the other night, each was a struggle and the team which came out on top was generally the one who had a better strategy and teamwork which is just the way it should be. In each of these games I went either Commander, rine res ######, Gorge, fade etc so my role in each game was totally different to the next.
edit: Alien Commander I was very skeptical of at the start, but the more you play it the better it seems. Especially with how it works in the latest patch. I remember one game recently where I was a Gorge building a forward position with the comm, telling him to drop crags and whips, catalyzing them to build faster and then hit umbra so my hydras would survive. The teamwork between the commander and Gorge is awesome, and exactly what I believe UWE is going for.
I have always felt back in NS1 whenever I commanded a game to feel left out of the fun and always thought it would have been more fun to have the commander out in the field directing deployment of machinery/items but that would be too much of a change in core mechanic/gameplay at this stage of development I think.
Current state of aliens is pretty good overall I feel. Need some fixing here and there but it's good to finally get the Onos in the field and see how gameplay evolves until it's final version when XO's are deployed.
<!--quoteo(post=1918819:date=Mar 28 2012, 02:06 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 28 2012, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1918761:date=Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Mar 28 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All this is also wasting vast amounts of money...
Had they <b>just straight ported NS1 to spark</b> then gradually tries implementing new features they would be significantly ahead now...
If they still don't want to learn from this mistake and keep making radical changes that no one likes then having to roll back fine..
They just need to realise they are wearing down fans and wasting $$$..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally if that happened I'd ask for my money back, I'm not paying for a port of a 6-7 year old game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite a lot of people are, actually, the 'omg why didn't you just remake NS1 god' complaint is a fairly common one.
Apparently some people just want to relive the NS1 glory days again, and don't really care if the game is good, profitable, worth making, or anything else.
A sequel is a new game on the theme of the old one. GTA sequels are games where you run around stealing cars, shooting guns, evadine the police, and doing missions. Some of them are story driven, some of them let you fly around shooting dual uzis on a jetpack. Some are top down, some are 3d, the theme however is the same. The games are different but still part of the same series.
Half life games are games where you run around shooting aliens and are generally one long continuous story, which you control all the way through. HL1 had you fighting aliens in a secret underground science base. HL2 had you fighting transhumans and aliens in a dystopian aliens-have-taken-over-the-earth setting. The games are quite different but recognisably related.
Natural selection is a game where you have a team of humans and a team of aliens, and they fight each other using RTS structures to provide their spawns, and their weapons, and their upgrades, and their objectives. NS2 is probably more like its predecessor than either of the other two series I mentioned. 'Keep everything that worked the same' would seem to mean 'keep everything the same because NS1 was perfect and it shouldn't be changed ever except possibly for this one thing I personally didn't like'.
That's not a sequel, that's a port. And it'd be a waste of time. I played NS1 when it was new, quite enjoyed it, don't want to play it any more. Would like to play a properly running, balanced, and polished NS2 though. It's different enough to be interesting.
Apparently some people just want to relive the NS1 glory days again, and don't really care if the game is good, profitable, worth making, or anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you not understand that the foundation of this sentiment is not so much the overglorification of NS1 (old-timers know it had\has issues that need to be resolved), but rather the intense dissatisfaction with regards to NS2 (both in terms of design-descions, as well as the technical ineptitude of the engine it is built on). So between the 2 games, the choice is simple, and the desire to impose NS1's design onto the wretched heap of poo we have now is very understandable, as by now it seems like the only way we'll ever see a proper NS-game.
It also doesn't make any sense to complain about NS2 design decisions because of the engine being unstable. The design has nothing whatsoever to do with the engine, the NS2 engine test and the game we have now both run on more or less the same engine, and you could easily go back to that if you wanted to. Changing the design would have no bearing at all on the technical aspects of the engine.
Wow...NS2 is anything but a "wretched heap of poo." I feel bad for starting this thread and inviting people like you to comment. UWE has done a very fine job so far for a beta, even if it's not the same game we're all used to. I will miss the old gorge and lack of an alien commander, but it is not a game-breaker. There's still so much to like about NS2. I know I have expressed criticism as well, but I was respectful about it, and I'm excited about the future changes. Even if it's not NS1, it's still NS--and it's still damn fun.
I've tried to <a href="https://docs.google.com/a/unknownworlds.com/document/d/150pxFW1b_KqgdzIF4MNxO1xBA-jrndZZ9-d_Ez0L1js/edit" target="_blank">write up</a> as much as I could to convey the thought process behind the game. I'm not sure what else to say, except that the Gorge's role in NS1 was too central IMHO, and caused other players to yell at him if he did the wrong thing. Spending team resources from first-person is problematic to say the least, and something I really wanted to avoid this time around. We're always trying to improve the game to the best of our ability, and this is one of those changes that we believe in.
As far as all our other experiments go - much has been written about experimentation and willingness to fail. If you don't try some things that don't work, you need to start taking risks and do your job better. We truly believe that the best way to find out if something works or not (RKF, multiple commanders, etc.) is to release it to a large group of players. I realize that for some this will make them lose faith in us as developers. But we've advanced the game so much faster in partnership with the community (who make it abundantly clear when something is or is not working).
I shudder to think what game we would have right now if we withheld all these experiments until v1.0.
so please dont take it too serious, and keep developing the game we all care so much about :)
btw, you mentioned multiple commanders.. will they have a comeback?
kharaa could benefit quite a bit from them, as advanced lifeforms could dump some of their spare pres in cysts without having the comm to exit the hive.
marine comm has tons of tasks to fulfill and a second comm could help him out with caring about meds and nano shield micro-managment while the other one focuses on expanding and researching etc. i actually loved the idea of sharing the burden of being the mastermind of a team that usually doesnt forgive misdecisions (on public).
You can't play the gorge the way you want to, you have to play it the way you are required to, or you lose, and probably get kicked.
It's almost the definition of a menial task.
Ai ai ai ai. Well, if mod-synchronization makes it in, and performance is at least doubled, it shan't be a problem.
Any complex game will have a learning curve which everyone will need to suffer through its a very bad reason to dumb down the gameplay...
Given your willingness to try idea's can we not try 1 build where aliens RT spread infestation and power nodes are removed?