different aspect when killing FADE
Classic319
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">between NS1 and NS2</div>Really simple difference of reaction when marine kills FADE at mid-game which is not one-sided
Natural Selection 1
Marine : YAY!!! FADE KILLED!!! WE ARE WINNING!!!!!!!!
Alien : OMG!!!
Natural Selection 2
Marine : Fade killed, but nevermind, another one would come soon
Alien : Got killed? Then evolve again
conclusion : Personal Resource System of Alien should be adjusted a lot!
Natural Selection 1
Marine : YAY!!! FADE KILLED!!! WE ARE WINNING!!!!!!!!
Alien : OMG!!!
Natural Selection 2
Marine : Fade killed, but nevermind, another one would come soon
Alien : Got killed? Then evolve again
conclusion : Personal Resource System of Alien should be adjusted a lot!
Comments
Decreasing the res flow would slow down the game, which isn't really necessary. The current length of the matches is okay. I guess its ~ 20 - 30 minutes, which is perfectly fine, as a lot of people don't have much time and can only play an hour or so.
I like Floodinators idea of everyone starting with 0 res, though. This would at least increase the length of the early game a bit (which is most fun, imho)
Decreasing the res flow would slow down the game, which isn't really necessary. The current length of the matches is okay. I guess its ~ 20 - 30 minutes, which is perfectly fine, as a lot of people don't have much time and can only play an hour or so.
I like Floodinators idea of everyone starting with 0 res, though. This would at least increase the length of the early game a bit (which is most fun, imho)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's an issue of having everyone go fade or lerk at the same time based directly on how many RTs you've held. There's no choice and it feels wrong on both sides.
If there were more choice of what to spend PRes on for players you'd see a dramatic drop in the concentration of higher lifeforms because each player would have a more diverse set of options to choose what to spend their resources on.
Gorges already have hydras and cysts for PRes. Many players do not enjoy the defensive style of the gorge, though, so providing an offensively oriented low cost res-sink to the alien team would cater to those guys (and flesh out the alien team somewhat strategically). The obvious place would be the skulk. It's both the free default lifeform but also featured as an integral part of alien attack strategy (and therefore inherently strong otherwise it'd be useless!).
If skulks were slightly under-tuned by default and had the option to spend res on demand to get a boost in power somehow then it would mimic NS1's strategic lifeform timings and actually improve on NS1's alien tech system by allowing a pressuring marine team to chip away at alien resources in a manner analogous to non-confrontational lerks spore spamming economically strong marine teams.
The move towards free hydras worsens the issue.
/agree
The "issue" could be solved by making it more important to have each life form / weapon in your team. Like the "rock < papers < scissors"- principle in an full rts game.
Having few or no lerks in early game should make it a little harder for the aliens. Can't think of anything to balance skulk / lerk / marine though. It depends so much on the players skill.
It doesn't make everyone going fade at once less OP, it's just making the winning tactic less intuitive.
It doesn't make everyone going fade at once less OP, it's just making the winning tactic less intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither me nor the OP suggested what you've just said as a solution, I suggest you re-read the thread.
Cheers,
This, plus getting small points for saving a teammate who is taking damage, or for parasiting off infestation, or healing X amount of structure, or following phermone orders from khamm etc etc
there's all sorts of ways to improve and encourage gameplay mechanics while solving other bugged ones, having a pres sink is just one method, having an alternate way to earn pres is another.
<!--quoteo(post=1919531:date=Mar 29 2012, 01:06 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 29 2012, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole 'everyone goes fade at once is OP so randomise the res flow' argument is really silly.
It doesn't make everyone going fade at once less OP, it's just making the winning tactic less intuitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your missing the point that its a two part issue:
<ul><li>Everyone gets the same amount of res at the same time, which only exaggerates the fact that:</li><li>Massing tech/lifeforms can lead to a victory</li></ul>
Rock,paper,scissor mechanics, as a soft counter,<u>plus </u>means to interrupt the similarity in pres (hopefully while providing strategical options and encouraging teamplay) will solve this issue. This issue will only become ever more apparent, by the way, as we get larger player counts.
Make upgrades stronger for skulks.
Marine upgrade for lmg to punish unupgraded skulks?
Like extended mag higher damage bullets that you can buy for p-res. This might help to make the lmg more balanced in the late game aswell.
Thoughts?
So the reason that loosing a fade is no big deal is that NS2 fades costs less than half an NS1 fade did.
So the reason that loosing a fade is no big deal is that NS2 fades costs less than half an NS1 fade did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Fact of the matter is, a decent amount of the team were sinking their res into RT's, chambers, or occasionally hives. Something needs to be done to mirror this in NS2.
So the reason that loosing a fade is no big deal is that NS2 fades costs less than half an NS1 fade did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats part of the problem. Anyone who aint willing to doesn't have to contribute ANYTHING to his alien team behalf of his personal res. As in NS1 you needed to choose who did chambers and go to support, who lerked, who makes the hive and who puts rt up. Now its just 50 until you hit the fade, and that happens simultaneously.
This is the point that i think the game designing is badly broken.
Earning the pres is one way but it cannot be emphasized too much. You could achive something on taking down buildings/pnodes and killing players, but besides from that there really isn't much more than that ways which you could earn Pres.
What i mean that the problem is on the metagame and basic fundamentals. Not in the details.
I see what your going for, but as it stands the MOST efficent way is to sit tight before you have the 50 res to go for that fade. But i wont bobble too much, because the game isn't completed yet, and nor the whole tech three hasn't even been implemented.
But i still think that they have a lot of work to do just to rethink the current resflow and how to divide it between the players.
Get it?
Alien tech tree is being worked on currently, as you'll see in the progress tracker. :)
You will have enough res to maybe re-evolve again once, then good luck for another 20 mins while you build up the res again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Upgrades should be free.
The reason why is that the relative cost of getting an upgrade for the skulk is infinite (2/0) while it's only 6%, 4% and 2% for the lerk, fade and onos. Thus getting an upgrade for the skulk is very unfavorable. Taking lifetime into consideration make this even worse.
Upgrades was one of the thing that made skulk fun to play in ns1 by 1) adding diversity (celerity, silence, cloak, focus) and 2) allowing the skulk to scale better in late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>Everyone gets the same amount of res at the same time, which only exaggerates the fact that:</li><li>Massing tech/lifeforms can lead to a victory</li></ul>
Rock,paper,scissor mechanics, as a soft counter,<u>plus </u>means to interrupt the similarity in pres (hopefully while providing strategical options and encouraging teamplay) will solve this issue. This issue will only become ever more apparent, by the way, as we get larger player counts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm not missing the point, I don't agree that making the tactic unintuitive should ever be a part of the solution.
An unexpected wave of fades is extremely powerful, it's also very intuitive, having effective ways to win be intuitive is a <i>good thing</i>, it's the fact that they are overwhelmingly powerful that's the problem.
You should always know what needs to be done to win, it should always be the obvious choice, the difficulty should be in pulling it off, in terms of playing your lifeforms well, making good strategic choices etc. It should not revolve around getting everyone to realise that spending money on comparatively useless things is a bad idea.
A game full of choices that serve only as newbie-traps is a badly designed game.
eg... without lerks/gorges/upgrades, an equally skilled alien team will lose to marine team
BEFORE the 45 res mark.
obviously if an alient team is able to stay as skulks and still contain the marine team, then they are probably better players and would have ended up winning anyway.
It is on competitive play, but not in the public now. Different skill levels and skillcaps let you hold rines easily while waiting for your res to sum up.
Many times when i'v played game (i'm not that motivated as i have tons of freezing), there has been totally noob comm and rines have no idea what is map control, sometimes even on the best servers.
So one factor is simpliest of all: SKILL. As NS2 evolves i hope the people around it evolve too.
And I've already made one suggestion that should potentially adress the issue really well.
You can read it in this thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116807" target="_blank">Personal res management</a>
I believe we should reduce the spammability of lifeforms(AND marine weapons).
And adress that everyone can essentially just take the same lifeform as soon as they hit a certain res count(they dont have to spend res on anything else).
And it will feel like an investment, and you will have incentive to stay alive(you can't get another one right away).
This, or something similar, is very much needed now that lifeforms are untied from the hives.
The topic includes a few other suggestions, that are not all directly affecting this issue.
Look at the weapon/lifeform upkeep suggestion.
try the new patch. issues like this should be gone now, as a lot is predicted client side.
<!--quoteo(post=1919741:date=Mar 30 2012, 05:54 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 30 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An unexpected wave of fades is extremely powerful, it's also very intuitive, having effective ways to win be intuitive is a <i>good thing</i>, it's the fact that they are overwhelmingly powerful that's the problem.
A game full of choices that serve only as newbie-traps is a badly designed game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is a wave of lifeforms which dont do structure dmg very well intuitive for a win? how is any wave of same lifeforms intuitive to win? you start out this way as skulks rushing around and die generally - this should teach the player that waves of the same life form aren't enough to win - IF ANYTHING. A team of gorges? same thing.. it fails every time. As it should... so how do you consider this "<b>intuitive</b>" again? Just because "waves" occur by default does not make it naturally "intuitive".. and even if it did, that just gives another reason why it should be changed!
What <b><u>is </u></b>intuitive is the required mechanic of complementary teamwork. the lerk sprays so the skulks can fight. the gorge builds and heals so the fade can hit and run etc etc etc..
This is also known as Rock, paper, scissor mechanics, and if you see the high level design doc from charlie you will see they are intended.
And fnially, a game full of choices is a game which has <b>DEPTH</b> to it, and the ease in which a n00b can learn this depth is what makes it, "easy to learn, hard to master".. removing choice from a game is called a cutscene. Do you not think the devs are keenly aware that they need to communicate lots of little details to new players?
NS2 - Walker fade = Quad kill
Fade shadow step still results in a 20 fps loss(assuming nothing else is going on in the scene) on my PC as either the Fade or the marine trying to fight one. Incredibly frustrating on both counts. It doesn't happen with blinks, only shadow steps, something to do with the particle effect perhaps.
<!--quoteo(post=1920246:date=Apr 1 2012, 06:02 AM:name=Molecule)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Molecule @ Apr 1 2012, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 - Walker fade = dead in seconds
NS2 - Walker fade = Quad kill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines aren't shooting it then maybe. A non blinking/shadowstepping fade goes down very quickly to two or more marines.
this in unrelated to the netcode /hit feedback issue that i was reponding to...
but.. in regards to your issue, yes we (Playtesters) are actually looking at issues like that right now as i type. to include blood effects and steam effects impacting fps.