The definitive marine comm guide
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Only the finest</div>If there is one thing that the NS community lacks it is adept marine commanders. Thanks to the new GUI and interface comming has never been easier and all players have a responsibility in learning how to command. I am now going to break down the key moments and tactics in being an effective marine commander. I have spent more hours comming than anything else in NS2. I am pretty well known in the community and have followed this game for years (Since the beginning of NS1). I have a lot of knowledge and experience to share on this topic.
So, here it begins... the round has restarted and you are waiting to gain control of your player as the camera spins around. A good commander will already be plotting his course to the comm chair because every second counts. After you take control of the commander chair there is a controversy on how to start the round. From my experience, I have found that a good way to start is to use 2 IP's. The reason for having 2 IP's is simple; if one goes down you have redundancy and wont lose to a simple skulk rush. Also, having 2 IP's allows your team to respawn quicker. Anything more than 2 IP's is a waste of time since it is doubtful you will have more than 3 marines getting killed all at the same time. I also will ALWAYS build and observatory. I usually wait a few moments before placing it to see what side the aliens will be attack from. Place your observatory in a corner somewhere that it can detect aliens early. One thing I would like to stress is IP placement. Since the dev's have made it so that you have a random IP spawn (Which I must say I detest) you want to place your 2nd IP in a symmetrical way so that each IP spawn will have an equal distance to your armory. I have seen far too many comms placing IP's in wacky spots and having the armory way too far away to be effective against skulk rushes. Keep your IP's in a clean symmetrical fashion and build your armory close... but not too close (We will get into this later). Also after your obs is built scan the locations that you think their hive is at. It's helpful to know whether they went shade or crag.
Okay so you built up your initial base. The key here is to have the armory, 2 IP's, and observatory all in place before any of your marines reach a resource nozzle (This will take practice but is very essential to winning). The only real way to have all these structures down lightning fast is to learn the hotkeys for them. After base is built (Or even during) I like to drop 2 extractors right off the bat (Make sure your team is placing extractors in places easy to defend i.e. not next to the alien hive). Sometimes it can be good to deny the aliens a resource point by placing an extractor close to their main but other times this can be bad. It is very hard to defend nodes that are close to a hive and this will slow your map control on the opposite side of the map. I won't get into individual map strats but the key is to expand in all directions and using your spawn point to its advantage. For example if you are in sub access and they are in flight control you should be trying to take atrium and crossroads with phase gates as early as possible. The key is to keep the aliens from ever getting a 2nd hive.
Okay so now you have 3 res nodes (If your team can aim). Once you have 3 res nodes you need to plan out your map control. Once I have 3 extractors I research mines... in order to hold those resource points. Cool, so now you are probably expanding a little further. If your team is doing well you should have 4-5 resource towers within the first 5 mins. Once mines are researched your next tech should be phase tech which can be upgraded via the observatory. I personally like to drop my teammates an armory in their forward position until I have 30 res to drop 2 phase gates. With an armory and a phase gate + mines your area will be extremely hard to lose (To skulks and lerks). At this point you may see a lerk or 2 but if you are good and have the 4-5 res towers you can afford more upgrades quickly. The first tech tree I go for is attack upgrades in order to kill a 2nd hive (if they aliens are good). Depending on the hive location it can be better to upgrade to advanced armory and get GL's BEFORE getting attack upgrades. This is all at your own discretion. All good marines teams go for arms lab upgrades first. Turrets, arcs and macs are late game tech which is often far too expensive to be viable in early / mid game.
So far all of this is a strategy in a perfect world. Of course as a marine comm your marines will often frustrate you or neglect to follow orders. I recommend getting a mic before ever attempting to command. Also speak in a commanding voice but be polite. People will more often than not listen to you if they want to win. By now skulks will be harassing your res points that don't have mines or phase gates defending them. THIS IS OK. With the buff to marine sprint in the last patches you can start recycling the res node and cancel the recycle if your marine can kill the threat. I ALWAYS save my nano shields for the marines. I don't use them on structures since recycling is a very viable option as marines. After a minute or so of having up a res node it has already paid for itself so don't worry about recycling if you have to.
Also, on top of planning out your strategy and map control be sure to ALWAYS be hitting spacebar when your troops are under attack. Also whenever your marines are building an extractor, armory, and etc scan the area so they don't get chomped. Basically always be aware of any messages or anything coming into the command station. Always drop meds for your marines and nano shield marines who are far from base and under attack (You need your marines alive at all costs). One of my favorite things to do is nano shield a marine who is going to defend a resource nozzle. You will almost always come out on top if you drop meds too. I have seen far too many new commanders taking the chair and telling the teams that they are all "expendable". This is a losing strategy. If you have good FPS players that can aim they are actually far more important than any "genius" command strat you have. Killing the enemy will keep your map control which = victory. Once you have secured a couple hive locations with phase gates it is time to drop some observatories at your forward amories (You can do this earlier if res is looking good). I tend to wait on dropping too many obs early in effort to save up for weapons or upgrades to kill a 2nd hive. Either way remember that the more observatories you have the more you can scan. Not enough commanders use the scan feature enough. I tend to scan whenever marines are entering a new area or building. DO IT.
PART 2: Winning...
Second, you have excellent map control and are giving your marines ammo and meds BEFORE they have to ask. This is painfully important I might add. If your teammates have to ask for health or ammo chances are they are already dead. Be on top of that. If you need your team to request so you can find them easier then you need more work on your comming. Be aware of where your troops are so you don't have to rely on THEM to give their position. This may all sound overwhelming and complicated but once you have commed 10 or so games you will have a pretty good hang of it. Just follow this guide and you will be winning soon. If the enemy team has managed to get a 2nd hive dropped then now is the time to beacon rush. Find the hive and by now you should either have attack upgrades or GL's (on the way or done). Click the observatory and give a distress beacon. Either phase to the place nearest the hive or rush. Scan the hive just before the marines enter the area and start spamming meds in spots they will be walking past. One very important thing that people forget about is that when a 2nd hive is rushed its extremely common that the aliens will rush your spawn and take down your power or comm chair. This in my opinion is a cheap way to win but it works very well. So beacon your team back after the 2nd hive is killed or if you have no energy drop a 2nd comm chair where the hive was killed but ONLY IF YOUR COMM CHAIR IS BEING DESTROYED IN MAIN. I have won many games by using this strategy. Let's just bank on the idea that you don't get spawn rushed as you're killing the 2nd hive... simply beacon again and rush their next hive... you should have the momentum now and aliens egg spawning should be slowed a bit. If you are losing phase gates or other foward points during the hive rush just recycle them because victory is extremely close. Spend the extra res on armor or other weapons upgrades. The key here is to finish the game swiftly. If you had really good map control chances are they never even got a 2nd hive and you killed off their drifters. In this case just upgrades GL's or something and rush the hive and end the game. A good marine comm with maximum efficiency and timing should be able to end the game in about 8 mins. If you take longer than that they will evolve onos and subsequently demolish you. In my opinion this aspect of the game is broken. Onos should not be able to evolve till 2 hives, or he should not be able to stomp... this would fix this extreme imbalance in the game. So ladies and gents for the current patch if you cannot win within 8-10 mins chances are you might lose if they can afford a couple onos. I have won games that have went on for 30+ mins but this is usually due to my troops killing off their fades and lerks on a consistent basis keeping them from being able to evolve to onos.
This is my strategy for winning and it is very sound as it is not a turtle strategy nor is it a rush strategy. In my opinion and experience is the most effective and safe way to comm. There is no real alien strategy to beat this strategy... it basically all comes down to whether or not you can keep your marines alive and sadly if the alien team is well coordinated and skilled you are basically screwed as marine comm either way. Keep your marines alive and you will win. Think of yourself as built in hacks for your marines. You can give them walls and unlimited health and ammo. You are more of a support role than a commander (When your team knows the game). Marines need to be quick and professional and there should be no deadweight on the team. Aliens are much more forgiving when they lose units.... they can respawn fast and map control is all up to the alien comm anyway.
I won't get into strats for turtle comms or turret comms since from my experience this strategy only works when the alien team is very new to the game. The NS community has a lot of talent and keep in mind that if you lose as marine comm it doesn't at all mean you are a bad comm. If you drop your team res nodes promptly and give them upgrades and health (Which is all clicks of a button) you are doing your job. Comming is the eaiest position on marines once you have it down. Many may disagree with me but comming is very intuitive and easy. All it takes is awareness of the map.
They key moments for the marine comm are the very beginning of the game holding points and the moment the 2nd hive is dropped. YOU MUST BE AWARE OF HIVE DROPS. If you find the 2nd hive even a minute too late you have already lost. Get phase gates close to the hive or try a ninja phase ;). Get creative but stay to the formula.
Good luck comming here on out!
So, here it begins... the round has restarted and you are waiting to gain control of your player as the camera spins around. A good commander will already be plotting his course to the comm chair because every second counts. After you take control of the commander chair there is a controversy on how to start the round. From my experience, I have found that a good way to start is to use 2 IP's. The reason for having 2 IP's is simple; if one goes down you have redundancy and wont lose to a simple skulk rush. Also, having 2 IP's allows your team to respawn quicker. Anything more than 2 IP's is a waste of time since it is doubtful you will have more than 3 marines getting killed all at the same time. I also will ALWAYS build and observatory. I usually wait a few moments before placing it to see what side the aliens will be attack from. Place your observatory in a corner somewhere that it can detect aliens early. One thing I would like to stress is IP placement. Since the dev's have made it so that you have a random IP spawn (Which I must say I detest) you want to place your 2nd IP in a symmetrical way so that each IP spawn will have an equal distance to your armory. I have seen far too many comms placing IP's in wacky spots and having the armory way too far away to be effective against skulk rushes. Keep your IP's in a clean symmetrical fashion and build your armory close... but not too close (We will get into this later). Also after your obs is built scan the locations that you think their hive is at. It's helpful to know whether they went shade or crag.
Okay so you built up your initial base. The key here is to have the armory, 2 IP's, and observatory all in place before any of your marines reach a resource nozzle (This will take practice but is very essential to winning). The only real way to have all these structures down lightning fast is to learn the hotkeys for them. After base is built (Or even during) I like to drop 2 extractors right off the bat (Make sure your team is placing extractors in places easy to defend i.e. not next to the alien hive). Sometimes it can be good to deny the aliens a resource point by placing an extractor close to their main but other times this can be bad. It is very hard to defend nodes that are close to a hive and this will slow your map control on the opposite side of the map. I won't get into individual map strats but the key is to expand in all directions and using your spawn point to its advantage. For example if you are in sub access and they are in flight control you should be trying to take atrium and crossroads with phase gates as early as possible. The key is to keep the aliens from ever getting a 2nd hive.
Okay so now you have 3 res nodes (If your team can aim). Once you have 3 res nodes you need to plan out your map control. Once I have 3 extractors I research mines... in order to hold those resource points. Cool, so now you are probably expanding a little further. If your team is doing well you should have 4-5 resource towers within the first 5 mins. Once mines are researched your next tech should be phase tech which can be upgraded via the observatory. I personally like to drop my teammates an armory in their forward position until I have 30 res to drop 2 phase gates. With an armory and a phase gate + mines your area will be extremely hard to lose (To skulks and lerks). At this point you may see a lerk or 2 but if you are good and have the 4-5 res towers you can afford more upgrades quickly. The first tech tree I go for is attack upgrades in order to kill a 2nd hive (if they aliens are good). Depending on the hive location it can be better to upgrade to advanced armory and get GL's BEFORE getting attack upgrades. This is all at your own discretion. All good marines teams go for arms lab upgrades first. Turrets, arcs and macs are late game tech which is often far too expensive to be viable in early / mid game.
So far all of this is a strategy in a perfect world. Of course as a marine comm your marines will often frustrate you or neglect to follow orders. I recommend getting a mic before ever attempting to command. Also speak in a commanding voice but be polite. People will more often than not listen to you if they want to win. By now skulks will be harassing your res points that don't have mines or phase gates defending them. THIS IS OK. With the buff to marine sprint in the last patches you can start recycling the res node and cancel the recycle if your marine can kill the threat. I ALWAYS save my nano shields for the marines. I don't use them on structures since recycling is a very viable option as marines. After a minute or so of having up a res node it has already paid for itself so don't worry about recycling if you have to.
Also, on top of planning out your strategy and map control be sure to ALWAYS be hitting spacebar when your troops are under attack. Also whenever your marines are building an extractor, armory, and etc scan the area so they don't get chomped. Basically always be aware of any messages or anything coming into the command station. Always drop meds for your marines and nano shield marines who are far from base and under attack (You need your marines alive at all costs). One of my favorite things to do is nano shield a marine who is going to defend a resource nozzle. You will almost always come out on top if you drop meds too. I have seen far too many new commanders taking the chair and telling the teams that they are all "expendable". This is a losing strategy. If you have good FPS players that can aim they are actually far more important than any "genius" command strat you have. Killing the enemy will keep your map control which = victory. Once you have secured a couple hive locations with phase gates it is time to drop some observatories at your forward amories (You can do this earlier if res is looking good). I tend to wait on dropping too many obs early in effort to save up for weapons or upgrades to kill a 2nd hive. Either way remember that the more observatories you have the more you can scan. Not enough commanders use the scan feature enough. I tend to scan whenever marines are entering a new area or building. DO IT.
PART 2: Winning...
Second, you have excellent map control and are giving your marines ammo and meds BEFORE they have to ask. This is painfully important I might add. If your teammates have to ask for health or ammo chances are they are already dead. Be on top of that. If you need your team to request so you can find them easier then you need more work on your comming. Be aware of where your troops are so you don't have to rely on THEM to give their position. This may all sound overwhelming and complicated but once you have commed 10 or so games you will have a pretty good hang of it. Just follow this guide and you will be winning soon. If the enemy team has managed to get a 2nd hive dropped then now is the time to beacon rush. Find the hive and by now you should either have attack upgrades or GL's (on the way or done). Click the observatory and give a distress beacon. Either phase to the place nearest the hive or rush. Scan the hive just before the marines enter the area and start spamming meds in spots they will be walking past. One very important thing that people forget about is that when a 2nd hive is rushed its extremely common that the aliens will rush your spawn and take down your power or comm chair. This in my opinion is a cheap way to win but it works very well. So beacon your team back after the 2nd hive is killed or if you have no energy drop a 2nd comm chair where the hive was killed but ONLY IF YOUR COMM CHAIR IS BEING DESTROYED IN MAIN. I have won many games by using this strategy. Let's just bank on the idea that you don't get spawn rushed as you're killing the 2nd hive... simply beacon again and rush their next hive... you should have the momentum now and aliens egg spawning should be slowed a bit. If you are losing phase gates or other foward points during the hive rush just recycle them because victory is extremely close. Spend the extra res on armor or other weapons upgrades. The key here is to finish the game swiftly. If you had really good map control chances are they never even got a 2nd hive and you killed off their drifters. In this case just upgrades GL's or something and rush the hive and end the game. A good marine comm with maximum efficiency and timing should be able to end the game in about 8 mins. If you take longer than that they will evolve onos and subsequently demolish you. In my opinion this aspect of the game is broken. Onos should not be able to evolve till 2 hives, or he should not be able to stomp... this would fix this extreme imbalance in the game. So ladies and gents for the current patch if you cannot win within 8-10 mins chances are you might lose if they can afford a couple onos. I have won games that have went on for 30+ mins but this is usually due to my troops killing off their fades and lerks on a consistent basis keeping them from being able to evolve to onos.
This is my strategy for winning and it is very sound as it is not a turtle strategy nor is it a rush strategy. In my opinion and experience is the most effective and safe way to comm. There is no real alien strategy to beat this strategy... it basically all comes down to whether or not you can keep your marines alive and sadly if the alien team is well coordinated and skilled you are basically screwed as marine comm either way. Keep your marines alive and you will win. Think of yourself as built in hacks for your marines. You can give them walls and unlimited health and ammo. You are more of a support role than a commander (When your team knows the game). Marines need to be quick and professional and there should be no deadweight on the team. Aliens are much more forgiving when they lose units.... they can respawn fast and map control is all up to the alien comm anyway.
I won't get into strats for turtle comms or turret comms since from my experience this strategy only works when the alien team is very new to the game. The NS community has a lot of talent and keep in mind that if you lose as marine comm it doesn't at all mean you are a bad comm. If you drop your team res nodes promptly and give them upgrades and health (Which is all clicks of a button) you are doing your job. Comming is the eaiest position on marines once you have it down. Many may disagree with me but comming is very intuitive and easy. All it takes is awareness of the map.
They key moments for the marine comm are the very beginning of the game holding points and the moment the 2nd hive is dropped. YOU MUST BE AWARE OF HIVE DROPS. If you find the 2nd hive even a minute too late you have already lost. Get phase gates close to the hive or try a ninja phase ;). Get creative but stay to the formula.
Good luck comming here on out!
Comments
One simple tip I'd add is the marine comm should address his team by name. Say who you want to do things, and give praise to the players who do something well. Saying 'put this up', 'need 2 rines to go here...', it's impersonal and you won't get such good results.
Never take it too seriously, and never criticise a person on the team or the team as a whole it will instantly stop their enjoyment of the <i>game</i>, they'll stop listening and stop following orders, if they haven't already left the server. If you're one of the comms who say 'this team sucks', you need to stick to single player RTS games cos to be a good commander you need to be a person people respect.
I agree that you might ruin the game for other by criticizing them but sometimes the only way to learn is to be told of your shortcomings in a polite way if possible. e.g. I tell my team to move into crushing room and get the power up for an armory but one guy goes rushing ahead to north tunnels against my command. I tell him repeatedly go get back and support the other 3 marines there. He dies and in the time he took to rush up there the other marines were attacked and the only chance to effectively take crushing was lost. So, in essence an entire game can be lost by 1 marine neglecting to follow an order. ns_crushing needs an overhaul anyway.
With unlocked lifeforms, this isn't really true anymore. The reason for preventing the 2nd hive pre-B201 was to prevent fades, which generally led to aliens winning. Now, the key seems to be preventing the aliens from getting the 75 PRes for onos for as long as possible. I've changed my strat from hive denial to harvester denial and it seems to work better.
One thing I noticed though, is you really don't need that 2nd IP in the beginning. Let's face it, you have 8 marines out max, one or two should be building. That ten res should be spent on researching mines immediately and or getting shotties/ one more RT. Past this it's all situational, one thing I have been doing since 201, and it has been fairly successfull, is putting off phase tech in favor of upgrades. The game has changed, it's no longer about simply denying a 2nd hive, it's about resources. I want to give my marines that extra edge when the fades and onos appear. I just finished a game where there were 4 Onos on the map at once, but we had weapons 3 and JPs, if we had gone PG I doubt we would have won.
Also, relocating can work, so don't give up on the idea. Again toug, these strats need to be tested more and ironed out.
A good marine comander is fluid in their strategy and can think on the fly to a changing warzone.
Don't be afraid to try new things and be patient and calm under high stress situations (getting yelled at by your team members for whatever reason).
Most of all though, the best way to become a good comander is to analyse games you have lost. It shows holes in your strategy/decisions. Half the time try figure out what your team's strength is and play to that.
Build orders vary within the first few minutes. I personally like having 1 IP at the start unlike .ADHd as I'll use the resources for other things. However, I will drop a second IP once the game progresses and I need to up the tempo against the aliens.
The 'default' build order will see at least 1 IP and 1 armoury. Anything after that is meta game thinking and you have to decide what research path you want to take.
All build orders result in the same goal though - Map control & pressure on the alien hive. These two goals tend to go hand in hand.
Edit: Ejquinn brings up a good point about relocating. A lot of teams in NS1 liked to relocate marine base to another spot due to various reasons such as it's near 2 RT's (early resource advantage, near the hive (marine rush) or simply the marine start was so far away from anything. As the post was in the spirit of new/semi-new commanders this tactic is a more advanced (and more risky) form of commanding.
If you are at 4-5 resource towers you can spam meds and ammo without having too worry about losing too much res. You always have a nano, or med you can lay down on a rush if timed well a good rush you can nano 2 marines.
The game is still largely hive denial unfortunately. Onos won't appear if you deny their hive points by killing drifters and rushing their spawn because you will have already demolished their 1 hive before they can evolve. Everyone knows the hive will be up around 4-5 mins on a good alien team. Any game that has gone on long enough for the marines to research jetpacks and etc has gone on longer than needed. I would put this into the turtle category of comming. If you follow my strat you will kill the aliens before onos is even available to the aliens.
If they do manage to onos up with 1 hive you will have staggering weapons and armor upgrades to boast. Having a 2nd hive unlocks multiple upgrades and more abilities like blink which are extremely powerful. Even on the current patch with unlocked lifeforms fade is mostly a useless shotgun bag without a 2nd hive, and onos will take forever to accomplish the res to evolve.
Like you said killing their harvesters is very important as well. If you control most of the map with pg's and are preventing a hive drop you can kill off their res at the same time. By the time you reach around 6 mins the alien team should be starving and on their bitter end. You will have more damage and armor and extremely fast access to the key points in the map. They will be crippled.
<b>Base layout matters!</b>
- Keep in mind where your marines need to walk, keep enough space between buildings.
- It's a good idea to build arms lab and robo fac up against a wall so that attacking skulks must be exposed, or to prevent skulks from using those structures as cover. Conversly, IPs and PG can be built in central areas because they don't obscure line of fire.
- When building sentrines, I highly recommend buiding in pairs, backs to the wall, facing each other. Skulks will always try and get in behind, using the sentries for cover while chomping away. As a matter of etiquette I only build sentries in tech points, or where i'm building up a PG/Armoury/OBs mini-base (eg: mineshaft's central drilling). 4 sentries can all but lock down most bases, but remember that the role sentries is only to give you early warning and deterrence. Don't expect more from them. They currently track slowly but dish out massive damage so you can use them to protect things that aliens like to stand still and chew on, like power nodes, IPs, PGs...
<b>Spend wisely</b>
Your best options are
45 res for a pair of phase gates
60 res for arms lab and tech 1 research
40 res for Adv. Arm & GLs
If you try and do all 3 at once you'll probably lose. Pick one, complete it then move on to the next.
dont forget to put waypoints, please, cause usually it is "dude, you go here and you go there, and attack the hive! build rt bla bla bla".
putting a waypoint is very helpful.
The game is still largely hive denial unfortunately. Onos won't appear if you deny their hive points by killing drifters and rushing their spawn because you will have already demolished their 1 hive before they can evolve. Everyone knows the hive will be up around 4-5 mins on a good alien team. Any game that has gone on long enough for the marines to research jetpacks and etc has gone on longer than needed. I would put this into the turtle category of comming. If you follow my strat you will kill the aliens before onos is even available to the aliens.
If they do manage to onos up with 1 hive you will have staggering weapons and armor upgrades to boast. Having a 2nd hive unlocks multiple upgrades and more abilities like blink which are extremely powerful. Even on the current patch with unlocked lifeforms fade is mostly a useless shotgun bag without a 2nd hive, and onos will take forever to accomplish the res to evolve.
Like you said killing their harvesters is very important as well. If you control most of the map with pg's and are preventing a hive drop you can kill off their res at the same time. By the time you reach around 6 mins the alien team should be starving and on their bitter end. You will have more damage and armor and extremely fast access to the key points in the map. They will be crippled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only time you will be winning the game before the aliens can get 75 res is when they are simply bad. They only need three or so towers, and that should be easy for them. It's not turtling if it reaches that point.
And don't be skimpy with your resources! If it means keeping your marines happy and alive, spend it.
The game is still largely hive denial unfortunately. Onos won't appear if you deny their hive points by killing drifters and rushing their spawn because you will have already demolished their 1 hive before they can evolve. Everyone knows the hive will be up around 4-5 mins on a good alien team. Any game that has gone on long enough for the marines to research jetpacks and etc has gone on longer than needed. I would put this into the turtle category of comming. If you follow my strat you will kill the aliens before onos is even available to the aliens.
If they do manage to onos up with 1 hive you will have staggering weapons and armor upgrades to boast. Having a 2nd hive unlocks multiple upgrades and more abilities like blink which are extremely powerful. Even on the current patch with unlocked lifeforms fade is mostly a useless shotgun bag without a 2nd hive, and onos will take forever to accomplish the res to evolve.
Like you said killing their harvesters is very important as well. If you control most of the map with pg's and are preventing a hive drop you can kill off their res at the same time. By the time you reach around 6 mins the alien team should be starving and on their bitter end. You will have more damage and armor and extremely fast access to the key points in the map. They will be crippled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the current build (201), one-hive onoses are game-enders, such that aliens really don't need to get a 2nd hive. In most games I comm as aliens now, I usually try to get 4-5 RTs + upgrades before I even think about dropping the 2nd hive, and it works quite well. About the only times I lose are when my alien team is simply that much worse than the marines (skill-wise), but in that case, there really isn't anything I could do to stop that outcome.
Also, if you can kill the 1st hive before aliens get onos, then that generally means that the alien team was just bad and that pretty much any minimally competent strat would have won. Of course, there are marginal cases, such as an alien team with one really good player in a sea of newbs, who if you let go onos can single-handily win the game by killing your main powernode. However, there are generally straightforward ways to counter those tactics, such that any halfway-decent comm with a good-to-very good team really shouldn't lose.
It is pretty general and it is not a turtling guide which I really like.
The most exciting marine games are NOT turtling games.
Or when your comming and marine team is excellently coordinated. I have had great teams lose to not so great teams and it comes down to simple errors or lack of awareness in the map e.g. everyone is playing call of duty style. If the aliens reach enough res to go onos I would argue it's only because the marine team is "bad".
<!--quoteo(post=1919817:date=Mar 30 2012, 12:30 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ Mar 30 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commanders need to understand that their job isn't just dropping structures and meds/ammo. You need come up with a strategy. You need to relay this strategy to your marines. You need to change your strategy to counter what the other team is doing. Your build order should not be predetermined every game. If aliens go shade first, go observatory first, possibly get a second or third to ALWAYS have the map scanned for your marines. If aliens go crag, get early shotguns. Know the key points on the map. Know the TIMING of alien hives/lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The strategy is very basic in NS... kill the enemy hive, enemy players, and enemy structures. Being the comm you have full map awareness and it is your job to relay information to the team. Like I said before you are moreso an intelligence and support role than anything else. The team itself should have an equal role in strategy forming from their ground view and awareness of the real time battlefield. Teams that only rely on their comm are usually weak teams. There are many ways to kill the hive which can work in many situations, but through experience I have found the most efficient and effective way to achieve this goal is to use the most powerful marine asset... phase gates. Let's be honest; the marines have phase gates as their most powerful asset... and aliens at this time it is onos... though it should be on getting the 2nd hive.
Shotguns have reduced damage in the new patches and they are less effective against killing hives than the assault rifle because shotguns are less effective against the hives armor now. Early game shotguns, though very effective in older patches, is not an effective weapon in the early game in current builds. In fact I would go as far to say that shotguns are useless until fades have the blink ability.
As for saying having a set build strategy can be foolish I will disagree. If you build all of those structures in base and your team successfully builds 2 of the closest RT's then you will have wasted no res or time on building your tech tree to phase gates. If your team was unsuccessful in securing 2 extra res positions then it was GG for your team anyway.
I will say this... there are certain times when you can stray off from this idea for instance if their hive location is spawning right next to you and your team is playing aggressive. There will be no need for phase gates since you can simply rush their hive... there are always situations like this, but I am saying that for the overwhelming majority of games this is the most sound routine to follow. It is simply a guide for showing new players the basic strategy of the game which is map control and logistics. The aliens have an inherent mobility which marines do not which is their basic difference in play style aside from the ranged vs. melee combat. If you gives marines phase gates it evens the playing field for map control which is why observatories right off the bat are a smart approach.
There are many strategies such as relocation that can work very well on the toss of a coin. These types of strats are high risk but high reward. I am writing a comm guide to show the most secure strategy for marine commanding. If you look down in the history of NS you will see this exact strategy played out time and again by some of the best and fastest commanders.
My strategy is micro heavy which in my opinion was the developers intention for the marine commander. This type of game design rewards the fast players with fast micro ability. The turtle or more "strategic" commanding styles seem to be too slow paced for competitive or serious play. Most professional gamers will strive for the most timed, efficient, and tested strategy to refine and practice. My strategy offers the fastest and most effective way to eliminate the Kharra!
There are many more ways to win and depending on the situation of certain games. There certainly are great turtle commanders who can lead their teams to victory but I see this playstyle and it makes me want to take the callous of their eyes.
This game is very basic compared to most RTS games. The role of the commander is far overstated. The gunplay and skill of the team is the defining factor in whether or not your team will win the game. The commanders job is to support the troops and give them intel. They shouldn't be mindless drones following all your orders. These are players who have also commed and know the game very well. They are self sufficient warriors and often times will have a better strategy than the comm would. They call teams a team for a reason. It's good to have a leader but not a dictator.
ARCs are currently dirt cheap and can be early game enders in return for slightly later upgrades. If you push to one hive location and aliens push to another one, you can have 3 or 4 out (3 and 2 shots on a hive respectively) before they have their second hive up. Even if it takes a bit longer, it's not the most expensive investment that requires decent attention from the alien team and less from yours.
GL's can work very well early game if your team is good enough to push a hive. It effectively egglocks aliens without any effort.
Build orders vary immensely based on the amount of players on your team, what the enemy team is doing and whatnot else.
That's not what strategy is. That's like saying the the strategy of basketball is putting the ball in the basket more than the other team.
So lets say the marines spawn Sub Access. You are saying you would have the same build order and strategy if the aliens spawned Data Core and Atrium?
Yes, commanding is 'basic' in NS but that doesn't mean it has no depth. Most commanders do not utilize his/her role to its fullest potential.
ARCs are currently dirt cheap and can be early game enders in return for slightly later upgrades. If you push to one hive location and aliens push to another one, you can have 3 or 4 out (3 and 2 shots on a hive respectively) before they have their second hive up. Even if it takes a bit longer, it's not the most expensive investment that requires decent attention from the alien team and less from yours.
GL's can work very well early game if your team is good enough to push a hive. It effectively egglocks aliens without any effort.
Build orders vary immensely based on the amount of players on your team, what the enemy team is doing and whatnot else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It costs 40 res for arcs and 35 for GL's. ARC's like I have stated earlier are a high risk strategy unless you have the res to farm arcs (In which case you have to be turtling). If your team isn't good enough to push a hive then you will more than likely lose the game any way. I go attack upgrades first because I play to win as fast as possible. Attack upgrades + assault rifles will take the hive down very quickly. The comm can't singlehandedly win the game for the team using AI units until there is a plethora of res sitting around. I consider arcs and turrets a luxury item that should only be used once your team has already secured a victory but is just turtling off the game for fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1919951:date=Mar 30 2012, 07:57 PM:name=TremanN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TremanN @ Mar 30 2012, 07:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not what strategy is. That's like saying the the strategy of basketball is putting the ball in the basket more than the other team.
So lets say the marines spawn Sub Access. You are saying you would have the same build order and strategy if the aliens spawned Data Core and Atrium?
Yes, commanding is 'basic' in NS but that doesn't mean it has no depth. Most commanders do not utilize his/her role to its fullest potential.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right... those aren't strategies... just objectives. But those objectives are simple and should also be simple to accomplish by taking advantage of the most effective upgrades your team has. I am 100% saying my build order would be the same nearly every game because if you break it down it makes the most sense.
1. Start researching tech (phase gates) that will allow for maximum logistics and give you the most options at attacking a hive or securing resources. Phase gates are simply the most important asset for marines. I can't see this as arguable in any form. Even if their hive location is directly next to yours phase gates are 100% essential for securing res and hive points across the map. Not to mention that the scan ability is the single most powerful thing the marine commander has. It allows for maximum awareness of the enemy. Without it you are effectively blind and relying on your teammates line of sight. Observatories are always the smartest choice in any situation... in fact I believe the marines should spawn with one by default if it weren't for the random placement. Spending that res on shotguns or anything else in my opinion is for comms that don't see the game from a higher perspective.
2. Research a tech that will allow you to defend the points you take more easily... e.g. mines. It's 10 res for mines that are much more effective than turrets which cost 3 times as much. That's about as much defense as you will need against skulks... remember the point here is to prevent onos or hive 2... the point isn't to prepare for onos or hive 2. Marine expansion comes way before marine defenses. If you only have 1 heavily defended area like spawn with turrets and mines you will still lose because of onos. Expansion is key.
3. Plan your final attack and beacon. If you have upgrades and well placed phase gates you are golden. If your rush fails then rush again... that's why its helpful to have more than 1 observatory.
4. There should not be a step 4. If you reach this step it means your hive rush failed... now its turtle time. This is the area of the game that I would personally like to see change. It's rare to see a battle that goes on longer than 10 mins and you rarely get to see onos's fighting against jetpacks and fully upgraded marines. It does happen but only when the marines are losing at the end of a turtle game. I rarely see marines come back after the aliens have onos or 2 hives, which takes less than 10 mins. This all lies in the dev's hands of balancing out the game. Real strategy and deep gameplay comes from games that last a long time giving players more time to think and plan. Right now the game relies on twitch shooting more than strategy. The gameplay is too staggered at this point of development and leaves a very narrow window for marines to win. Which is why I am pushing my strategy so hard because I want to show the design flaw here.
I am arguing that other command strategies should work just as well! For instance if I want to turret up my base from the beginning and choose a different tech route it should be viable and effective... yet it isn't. In the current state the game rewards the team with the higher KDR with having more map control. I have tried hundreds of different strategies and approaches to comming this game, but have found only 1 way to truly be effective in the way this game is balanced. I actually PREFER turtle comming. It gives more leeway to the comm and makes the game more interesting. Theres too many rules in this game already which stifles creativity in the command chairs.
Remember whip rushes? Ever see that anymore? It was fun and cool right? Someone got creative with the idea and it should have worked in theory but its not a viable strategy and rarely works even though it takes great coordination and skill to accomplish. In my opinion the dev's are removing any creativity and forcing the game to be played in a way they see. So many fun aspects of the game have been nerfed. Highly skilled tactics aren't highly rewarded. The simple tactics are often the best... they are lowering the skill ceiling of the game on purpose for the masses. The gameplay seems stagnant... the older patches were hundreds of times more fun. Personal res from killing enemies is gone. Powerpacks are gone (Why????). Turrets have been nerfed multiple times (lerk spores, tracking). Alien attack and armor upgrades are gone (Which was my favorite aspect of aliens). Shotguns used to own and was extremely fun to use but now it is a pee shooter. Basically anything fun that promotes skillful playing has been nerfed so that the game is easier for newer players.
Aliens objective is to get res to get onos... no point to even get a 2nd hive anymore. Marines is to get phase gates and kill the hive... and of course getting res.
Not very deep in my opinion. Should be many more ways to play.
The game is ultimately broken though, not sugar coating it it's not even close to being balanced. But it's also not feature complete we are still missing a considerable amount of content particularly on the Marine side, but also 2 structures and 2 upgrades on the Alien side.
Yes, clearly I implied turtling when I mentioned using ARCS being used early in the game, hurr. And wait, if your team to fails to take the alien hive in an early push, you'll lose? Better end 90% of the matches after 5-10 minutes then.
Besides, writing a "definitive" guide about a game that's currently imbalanced and unfinished is pointless.
Besides, writing a "definitive" guide about a game that's currently imbalanced and unfinished is pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but I am just following up with saying any type or arc strategy only works when a commander is turtling. Arcs are very weak currently... so you need at least 3-4 to actually kill a hive. I am simply saying that the cost vs the risk to use them early game isn't worth it when there are other better strategies.
And exactly... you better end games within 5-10 mins or else you simply lose in this current patch. You wont ALWAYS lose but I am saying if you have evenly skilled teams with players who know the game the aliens will almost always win if you don't play aggressive on marines. Turtling = lose for marines which I find to be an utter shame. Onos is just too powerful along with fades at 1 hive. I am basically saying that with the current game the developers leave us with really only 1 way to play the game. It's like counter-strike when you know the team is always gonna be going to site A or B. Very linear style of play and very predictable. They need to open up the options that each teams commander can do and put more power into the commanders hands.
Even with an exo suit and other alien features the balance of the game seems fundamentally broken. Winning should be skill based. You shouldn't be able to go on death runs with skulks for 8 mins then just go onos and win. There is no skill in that. In my opinion if the comms beefed up the ability of the marine comm instead of balancing out player damages and other features the game would be more balanced. I get bored playing as commander because there simply is not enough to do... on either side.
We can all argue and say there are a thousand ways to play comm and that it's so "deep". I think it's a pride thing in the community. Playing as comm is easy and the strategies you have at hand are thin because of the balancing of the game. When's the last time you saw a commander send 12 macs into an area and build it up super fast? It took skill and fast micro... too bad you can't do it anymore because of the nerfing. The game was much more well balanced when the aliens had armor and attack upgrades too. I understand the developers obsession with asymmetric gameplay but I think they may be making some vital gameplay flaws by not allowing for more playability.
I always wished for there to be a marine camo upgrade of some sort but you know the dev's would never hear of it because it "homogenizes" the gameplay. In truth it opens up huge options and creativity available to the marines. Marines should have more stealth options other than a phase gate to counter the aliens stealthy abilities.
I am saying the guide is definitive because it seems that the dev's are pushing to balance this game more like NS1 when NS2 is a completely different engine and feel. I think the dev's have the capability of expanding this game and making it much more complicated and therefore rewarding to the highly skilled players but they are holding back. I admit this game has a very high learning curve already but the commanding aspect of the game could be much more in depth. It seems too dumbed down vs other rts games. Anyone who has played many strategy or RTS games will see where I am coming from.
I feel held back and limited by the options available to the commander. If everyone blames the comm for winning or losing then I think he should have much greater control over that. I'd personally like to see the dev's add more AI controllable units and more things that the comm can do independant of the team. The game is just boring in this state... if the marines don't win within 10 mins they pretty much lose. That is such a boring game and it's been that way ever since they added bile bomb and removed power packs. I'd like to see longer games... perhaps make res come in slower for both teams? Just saying.
This line clearly shows your lack of understanding balance.
At the moment you are lucky if you have 1 or 2 decent players. The vast majority of 'new' players seem to go marine, as it feels more conventional.
There is very little commanders can do with a marine team full of people that cannot aim and have little idea how the game works.
The gameplay in public servers is distressingly lame.
On the other hand the alien team is much more forgiving. A single decent player can end the game which leads to a huge disparity of gameplay.
Haha, please elaborate. By allowing the aliens to upgrade their armor and attack it slows their early game res for a 2nd hive but improves the lerk and skulk. This gives more reason to use those classes over the fades and onos. Let's face it, playing as a skulk or lerk when there are fades and onos can be pretty boring. Since the skulks / lerks can't do more damage to the upgraded marines they just get wasted in late game. If the aliens could alter their armor and attack freely it would give more reason for the marines to focus on their own upgrades as well. It will bring more to the table in terms of gunplay. Not to mention aliens really have nothing to do with their res... personal or teamwise.
Personally I would like to see it come back as a personal upgrade like in ns1 (focus, etc)... not a passive one for the team.
It just opens up the options for each player instead of HAVING to use whatever upgrades the team chooses you can beef up your attack with lerk and play your own style early game. Way more fun in my opinion and also gives more incentive for players to spend their personal res... let's face it... most aliens never upgrade their lerk or skulk because the cost vs usefulness is not there. The aliens need more to spend their personal res on like marines to prevent the "strategy" of doing nothing and waiting for onos. So in essence it would actually balance the game out more if you use your brain to think of the consequences.
More upgrades and more things to spend res for aliens will actually balance the game. The aliens just have mounds of res sitting around at all times it seems and it would be nice to see some flavor and options with each class.
I really hate the idea that skulks are always gonna take 3 bites to kill a vanilla marine and that it will take a marine 10 bullets to kill a skulk. In the old releases you didn't know to space yourself far from the skulks due to the high amount of damage they can take because they might have been weaker yet much more deadly with their attacks. I remember 1 bite kills with skulks were amazing and so fun! But alas the dev's had to ruin the fun.
At the moment you are lucky if you have 1 or 2 decent players. The vast majority of 'new' players seem to go marine, as it feels more conventional.
There is very little commanders can do with a marine team full of people that cannot aim and have little idea how the game works.
The gameplay in public servers is distressingly lame.
On the other hand the alien team is much more forgiving. A single decent player can end the game which leads to a huge disparity of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very true :)
I have single handedly stopped 2 beacon rushes with 1 fade and basically did everything on the alien team by myself before. Seems like aliens are going more for super classes with huge abilities like a dota style or something (which i have no problem with)... while marines are banking on teamwork and strategy.
My point is that offering more options to the players is never a bad thing... just don't let it turn into a COD perk land where the whole game is based on stupid perks that don't encourage skill.
Also, phase gates, while important for some strategies, are not completely necessary for a win. In some cases it is preferable to spend that res on upgrades depending on how the aliens are playing. I've had games that have been fought to a stand still, and thanks to earlier upgrades and jetpacks, which I got because I decided not to get PGs, we were able to stop the Alien fades and onos, take ground, and with the help of some arcs win the game. Yes, we would have won eventually, but arcs just made it easier.
Just to reiterate
teching != turtling
Also, phase gates, while important for some strategies, are not completely necessary for a win. In some cases it is preferable to spend that res on upgrades depending on how the aliens are playing. I've had games that have been fought to a stand still, and thanks to earlier upgrades and jetpacks, which I got because I decided not to get PGs, we were able to stop the Alien fades and onos, take ground, and with the help of some arcs win the game. Yes, we would have won eventually, but arcs just made it easier.
Just to reiterate
teching != turtling<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, just to clarify, your strategy is to prepare to overpower the overpowered onos? Seems counter-intuitive to me. Any strategy can come back and bite you in the behind. My strategy is the most balanced between defense and offense. You secure points and hold them down with mines, armories, and obs until you have the res to get the tech needed to kill a hive. I have discovered through note taking and timing that you can achieve maximum defense and offense potential and still be in a res position to aquire 1 or 2 essential tech upgrades before the aliens. If this is possible... which it is... it would be the safest and most efficient route to taking out the alien team. Phase gates and GL's can be aquired before 8 mins game time. You can kill hive 1 without GL's before 8 mins if it ever appears. Of course it won't work everytime and in every game because of the diversity of players and skill. But in a perfect world when you have a great team that can perform these strats you will be an extremely powerful enemy. Remember the object is to kill their hives, not their oni. If you get forced into a position where you are coming up against onos I agree it wouldn't mean you were turtling. However, if you let the game get to that point then you failed at the other end which is map control. Due to game imbalances which the dev's have been very open and clear about late game almost always goes to the alien team. It's how it works and the dev's are trying to iron it out.
So, I'm sorry but I think my knowing of what turtling is happens to be accurate. If the aliens are evolving onos either you were turtling or they had the map control from the start... in which case GG for you and your only option is to turtle aka wait to get lucky or die. You better hope the aliens make vital mistakes (Or are playing in a casual pub) if you expect to really come back from that.
It all comes down to this; too many people command in public games with new players and tryout their inefficient strategies and find that they work. This starts to give said comm a pub ego. We see this in games like counter-strike and call of duty all the time. I have come across many comm's with a pub ego that aren't open to veteran players advice. It's a shame really. I am not accusing you of course just throwing that idea out there.
Every strategy I have tried myself and seen others try has failed. It is easy to dominate the map early game, and then all of a sudden 4 onos appear out of no where and take everything out. There have been a couple times where the marines have taken down an alien hive, only to have the base owned 2 seconds later by organic tanks and flying lerks of doom.
At the moment I see no real strategy other than player incompetence to win as marines.
Every strategy I have tried myself and seen others try has failed. It is easy to dominate the map early game, and then all of a sudden 4 onos appear out of no where and take everything out. There have been a couple times where the marines have taken down an alien hive, only to have the base owned 2 seconds later by organic tanks and flying lerks of doom.
At the moment I see no real strategy other than player incompetence to win as marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry you see it that way. The marines rely mainly on logic as their strategy. If everyone on marines is paying attention doing the next most logical thing then you would be winning more often. Playing on marines is a lot harder but when you have a good marine team you can completely obliterate the aliens in the most humiliating ways.
<img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3139/2012032900001r.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Notice the map control. Also notice that my team wasn't even fully upgraded by the time we trolled them like this. We were playing smart.
There are tons of NS1 vets on both the server I play on, marines ALWAYS lose. Any alien team that uses an ounce of teamwork trounces even the best marines. A remember a game where we had 4-5 people (including myself of course lol) with K:D ratios along the lines of 10:2, 14:3, 12:1,9:0 etc etc. What happens? aliens go onos and our once superior aim and firepower turns into nothing more that good aim and a pea shooter.
There are tons of NS1 vets on both the server I play on, marines ALWAYS lose. Any alien team that uses an ounce of teamwork trounces even the best marines. A remember a game where we had 4-5 people (including myself of course lol) with K:D ratios along the lines of 10:2, 14:3, 12:1,9:0 etc etc. What happens? aliens go onos and our once superior aim and firepower turns into nothing more that good aim and a pea shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's viable when you have 9 res towers and they are completely egg locked. I was simply using the regular strategy I always use. We just got bored and didn't want to end the game right away so we surrounded them and spawn camped them.
As for your veteran NS1 team... welcome to NS2.
You can have the best aim in the world but it won't make your team win if you don't understand how the game works. You can't call of duty around for 8 mins while they save res for onos. That's why you lost. I blame your comm.
I will say it for the 5th time. If they have onos on the map your team failed to do their job. Once the dev's balance out, or rather, beefen up the marines we will be seeing lots more interesting strategies to take down higher lifeforms and hives. Until then the marines can't let the aliens have a scrap of map control. Playing on the marine side takes a lot more skill at the moment, but even an evenly skilled alien team vs a marine team is still a tossup if the commander on marines is on top of things. NS2 is an 8-10 min game now, so if you plan on letting it go on longer then you are digging your own grave.