The definitive marine comm guide

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  • glimmermanglimmerman Join Date: 2004-04-29 Member: 28300Members, Constellation
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1920826:date=Apr 2 2012, 03:17 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 2 2012, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's viable when you have 9 res towers and they are completely egg locked. I was simply using the regular strategy I always use. We just got bored and didn't want to end the game right away so we surrounded them and spawn camped them.

    As for your veteran NS1 team... welcome to NS2.

    You can have the best aim in the world but it won't make your team win if you don't understand how the game works. You can't call of duty around for 8 mins while they save res for onos. That's why you lost. I blame your comm.

    I will say it for the 5th time. If they have onos on the map your team failed to do their job. Once the dev's balance out, or rather, beefen up the marines we will be seeing lots more interesting strategies to take down higher lifeforms and hives. Until then the marines can't let the aliens have a scrap of map control. Playing on the marine side takes a lot more skill at the moment, but even an evenly skilled alien team vs a marine team is still a tossup if the commander on marines is on top of things. NS2 is an 8-10 min game now, so if you plan on letting it go on longer then you are digging your own grave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your comprehension skills are lacking, so I won't bother trying to explain it anymore.... we can just agree to disagree.
  • CorpseyCorpsey Join Date: 2011-07-02 Member: 107538Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1920709:date=Apr 1 2012, 05:52 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Apr 1 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3139/2012032900001r.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why do people do this? Just end it and start the next match already.. The worst part is that aliens haven't quit by then.. I agree with glimmerman, the aliens must be mentally inept. Perhaps someone could make a chat voting command to forfeit the match, like "vfc" (vote for concession).. People need to admit defeat in situations like this. I don't get the point in the aliens staying in the game at that stage.. All they're doing is making everyone joining up come into the game under fire and waiting for the next match to start..

    I suppose.. it's tactical.. breaking someone's spirit, because then the next game they will most likely grief and most likely join alien and bring the team down again.. But it's seriously annoying. I wont even play with players with bad attitudes and that's partially why I don't play a lot currently.. In pubs there always seems to be one team with terrible attitudes and it's a crap shoot whether or not you land on that team..

    Perhaps another command "vtbfg #playername"? "Vote Temp Ban For Griefing" temp ban for 2 hours... I seriously hate griefers. Them and AFKs.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited April 2012
    ok i did not read through all the posts as there are a lot... so i'll just refer to the initial one.

    first of all, you might want to add a version number. every patch has its mechanic&balance changes, patches are released rather frequently. e.g. the sprint-buff was nerfed, life-form unlocking render the 2nd hive important, but not absolutely vital anymore.

    overall it is a nice read with a lot of good aspects i'd share. there are some parts i cannot agree with though. not because they are necessarily wrong, but because they are not the only reasonable option. in the end, you can only improve so much by repeating your strategy over and over. imo the key to win is to adapt to the situation, also trying out new build-orders and high-level strategies from the start. the DEVs actually mentioned in their design log that any strategy should be counter-able if the opponent has been expecting it.


    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep your IP's in a clean symmetrical fashion and build your armory close...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    before any weapons etc. are researched, marines won't have to walk to the armory right after they spawn. as soon as jetpacks are up, they might want to go to the prototype first. inbetween it makes sense to have it close, yes. it is a valid option of course (e.g. if you research shotguns right at the beginning), i'm just saying that it is not clear that this layout is necessarily the best at all times.


    one thing i would really like to point out is that it can be very harmful to place the IPs next to each other: an alien has a much easier time spawn-killing. having more than 2 IPs can still make sense when you have a larger team or want some more emergency backup.


    if you see no more way of winning, you can also try to perform a shotgun and/or jetpack rush or an ARC train (recycling non-critical buildings if you need more res for this). these surprise-arracks can easily fail if the team does not listen (a beacon can help there) or if it is spotted too early, but this can still be worth the try before giving up. even if it fails, it is usually quite a fun experience as a last showdown.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Really aliens will win every time if the have any skill. Marines will win if you have a stacked team. It's not balanced at all. As for the armory wall.....it's for fun (i do it also). Not to be rude but i find alot of EU/UK players get butt hurt when stuff is done to them, and the they QQ. Fight to the end like a man. Thats one thing i hate about the comp world right now. Aliens win and as soon as aliens close rine base its GG and sell base.... WE played team EU this weekend and we where in Dc and held them longer then it should of gone on for. Killed fades a onos and w.e else. They had to bring in more onos and whips for the power node. GG is when the fat lady sings
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1920884:date=Apr 2 2012, 02:20 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Apr 2 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really aliens will win every time if the have any skill. Marines will win if you have a stacked team. It's not balanced at all. As for the armory wall.....it's for fun (i do it also). Not to be rude but i find alot of EU/UK players get butt hurt when stuff is done to them, and the they QQ. Fight to the end like a man. Thats one thing i hate about the comp world right now. Aliens win and as soon as aliens close rine base its GG and sell base.... WE played team EU this weekend and we where in Dc and held them longer then it should of gone on for. Killed fades a onos and w.e else. They had to bring in more onos and whips for the power node. GG is when the fat lady sings<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is totally off-topic.

    Why do you feel there's a need to make a game drag longer and longer when the result is clear and there's no chance for the other team to win anymore? I understand that it might be fun to play but can you judge a forfeiting team if they have more fun starting a new game than dragging the old one longer?

    One could also argue that you learn more by playing more competetive games in the same time because of not dragging the end game. I guess this depends what you're trying to practice at the moment.

    How many good Starcraft players are there who don't say GG after the decisive mid game battle? Those guys play for their living and have no motivation on keep on playing a game that is already lost.

    Please don't judge people who have tight schedules and try to use their time effectively. Of course enjoying late game should not be judged either.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Again butt hurt. It was a gg, then people like Fana and i guess you now gotta come around making reasons like a coin flip that has 50/50 chance to win, then its the servers... like i told you when setting it up it was 4 NA teams that had it set-up you wanted in i said cool. Now there reason why you lost. Here let me cry some you made a all-star team of 3 different NS2 teams. You lost it was a fair fight. I think you guys planned on walking in there and smashing all 3 NA teams. To Fana and on his 2 posts... you are a crazy good player and you know this, there is a flaw tho....your ego....let it go. Im far from the best player or even the best team. But me or my team will not sell base or rr untill its over. If you guys did have the time to play you should have not wanted in so bad. You have to pay to play.


    As for now being off topic its is. ADHD sorry for thread jacking here. My point are on aliens will always win due to a team that has a a solid player base. And i made a point on the armory wall because its fun and people cry about stuff like that.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1920899:date=Apr 2 2012, 03:24 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Apr 2 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again butt hurt. It was a gg, then people like Fana and i guess you now gotta come around making reasons like a coin flip that has 50/50 chance to win, then its the servers... like i told you when setting it up it was 4 NA teams that had it set-up you wanted in i said cool. Now there reason why you lost. Here let me cry some you made a all-star team of 3 different NS2 teams. You lost it was a fair fight. I think you guys planned on walking in there and smashing all 3 NA teams. To Fana and on his 2 posts... you are a crazy good player and you know this, there is a flaw tho....your ego....let it go. Im far from the best player or even the best team. But me or my team will not sell base or rr untill its over. If you guys did have the time to play you should have not wanted in so bad. You have to pay to play.


    As for now being off topic its is. ADHD sorry for thread jacking here. My point are on aliens will always win due to a team that has a a solid player base. And i made a point on the armory wall because its fun and people cry about stuff like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah we lost and you won. But how is the mini tournament related to the subject of early forfeit?

    To my understanding all the teams in the tournament played all of the rounds the end without forfeiting.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    It is about the complaint about the armory wall and how it should just be ended. And i was giving a point about NOT giving up. So it fits in this post. My point about the qqing and selling base is back to the giving up.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1920905:date=Apr 2 2012, 03:40 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Apr 2 2012, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920905"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is about the complaint about the armory wall and how it should just be ended. And i was giving a point about NOT giving up. So it fits in this post. My point about the qqing and selling base is back to the giving up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I see. But why this rage towards EU, UK, Fana, me and our pickup team? And how are all these related? I don't get it.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Members
    But Jucci, after playing a 20 minute match where as marines we played very well but still lost to an Alien team due to balance what brings me happiness is blocking the entrances, dragging it on and making the alien team cry.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    If you read again it was never an attack. I was stating a point on teams comp/pub giving up. I see alot of EU guys giving up so that where that came from. i guess calling teh team .eu is what caused this.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Members
    I didn't say it was an attack, i'm just saying it's funny to extend games
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1920925:date=Apr 3 2012, 01:36 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Apr 3 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't say it was an attack, i'm just saying it's funny to extend games<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agreed. I have to admit, i like causing long marine defensive stalemates when all else is lost because it satisfies my inner conviction that gorge bilebomb needs to be reimplemented.

    The game is in whatever state the game is in. I think its more helpful that we 'exploit' every single option we have at our disposal in order to really play test the game. The devs seem to rely on their collected data more so to make design decisions, and so i'd like to do my part to make sure those stats are truly reflective of the state of the current build (broken or not).
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I think early gg in a nice tactic, I understand it funny sometimes to prolongate the game, or you don't want to give up in a competitive setting, but it can rapidly get boring too, specially for the viewers if the game is casted.

    The counter to late-gg is to go for silly tactics: rt of same, whip rush, mass drifter rush, ... In brood war they usually go for a cc in the natural, queens, scouts.

    In some format of proleague (when the same player kept playing if he was winning) late gg was actually used as a valid tactic to get a player tired.

    An alternative to late-gg is to do something silly, a last shotgun push, axe rush, armory fort, mass suicide into crevice, etc. Theses should also be included into the definitive marine comm guide.
  • EjquinnEjquinn Join Date: 2012-01-25 Member: 141995Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1920931:date=Apr 2 2012, 08:55 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 2 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think early gg in a nice tactic, I understand it funny sometimes to prolongate the game, or you don't want to give up in a competitive setting, but it can rapidly get boring too, specially for the viewers if the game is casted.

    The counter to late-gg is to go for silly tactics: rt of same, whip rush, mass drifter rush, ... In brood war they usually go for a cc in the natural, queens, scouts.

    In some format of proleague (when the same player kept playing if he was winning) late gg was actually used as a valid tactic to get a player tired.

    An alternative to late-gg is to do something silly, a last shotgun push, axe rush, armory fort, mass suicide into crevice, etc. Theses should also be included into the definitive marine comm guide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I wanna try an armory for around the comm chair, but with room between them and the cc. Then have a bunch of macs in that space repairing as the armories take damage.
  • TremanNTremanN Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8471Members
    <img src="http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Not sure how this has anything todo with the topic:

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>Again butt hurt</u>. It was a gg, then people like Fana and<u> i guess you now gotta come around making reasons like a coin flip that has 50/50 chance to win</u>, <u>then its the servers</u>... like i told you when setting it up it was 4 NA teams that had it set-up you wanted in i said cool. Now there reason why you lost. Here let me cry some you made a all-star team of 3 different NS2 teams. You lost it was a fair fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Seems like you were projecting something into Zeikkos general statement... in practice games, or pub games some teams or ppl tend to sell the base to start a quick new game - since its usually more fun for everybody.

    There was no connection to the mini tournament at all, the fact that you brought it up shows some kind of underlying problem you want to talk about...
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I think you need to read threw it again. My point was on someone else's point about end game and i made my point using the mini match.... so it fit. It fit due to the fact that i stated that people shouldnt give up. As for some above saying its hard to end a game as aliens if rines turtle. yes it is if there sents. and stuff like that. If its just a base of marines.... and you cant finish it with just you aliens... then you not working as a solid team to end it. And i guess the lil bit of out rage might be because of people crying about the coin flip and times zones. I the reason the EU people cry alot. You had a all-star team, you had to play on NA servers due to it being 4 NA teams to start with... then there was 3. Pretty much i take it as "we should of had it this is why we didnt" <crying. GG
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Personally, I'm not a fan of dragging out a losing match and feel that a 'surrender' (i.e. recycling IPs or going rr) are totally appropriate at this stage of the beta. Right now, I feel like NS2 is like chess or SC2 in which there is little point to play out a match past the point in which you know you can't win it.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited April 2012
    The people who drag marine games out as comm on pubs when they're winning tend to be the players who never comm or are terrible comms.

    Savoring a win.

    edit:
    With regards to the EU/NA drama, might as well encourage it. Made ns1 fun, so why not ns2. I think we all kind of want that nostalgia even if we're a lot older now.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited April 2012
    I feel selling the ips and stuff is ripping off the winning team. The reward is killing the chair or hive ftw. I like to make them fight for it. Ive watched a match were the loosing team did it and they other team was like wtf..... With the balance of teh game right now. I might as well hope in the comm chair at the start of a round and sell the one ip and say GG. Because we know the out come for the most part of all the builds since ive played since 180. Aliens win.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'm not a fan of dragging out a losing match and feel that a 'surrender' (i.e. recycling IPs or going rr) are totally appropriate at this stage of the beta. Right now, I feel like NS2 is like chess or SC2 in which there is little point to play out a match past the point in which you know you can't win it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i've had several games where a hopeless situation turned into a win e.g. surprise rush through a phase gate. wether it is fun to desperately play on or not really depends on the game though (and also on the players' attitude, which is why i'd like to see surrender and draw-votes implemented).
    i agree that there are certain games which only bore the losing players out of the server while also punishing the winning players with prolonged turtling and i think those should be finished earlier even if there are theoretical chances of winning. after all, you don't gain anything from winning a match (yet).
  • haprohapro Join Date: 2012-03-27 Member: 149492Members
    Giving up is stupid if you're losing. Purposely lengthening the game when you could easily win is also stupid. Don't do either of those things and no one gets mad.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    You guys make me giggle. Theres nothing wrong with recycling in a public match... you will be less of a man because of it but I can see why people do it.

    Also, people who prolong games aren't bad comm's nor do they have little experience. I would say the opposite. In fact, the longer a game goes on the more you learn about exploits and tricks you can do on different parts of the map. For instance... I learned you can put robo factories in both of the vents leading out of atrium which effectively blocks aliens from leaving. Then you just turret up the other exits and have fun messing around. This is just clever. Sure the aliens will get mad and call you a noob commander but like Jucci says "QQ you are butthurt". Couldn't agree more. I learned these tricks from hundreds of hours of comming... that's right.

    I watched the entire mini tournament and would like to add that there was only 1 marine win the entire tournament. That's 1 marine win out of 8 games that were played. It's obvious the aliens are imbalanced. Because of that I wrote this comm guide to help combat some of that imbalance. My strategy is right. Your opinion is wrong. :-P I would also like to add that the only time marines won in the tournament they used MY tactic. Get a phase gate in a good position to attack the hive with GL's. Exactly what I try to do.

    Let's keep on topic though... I'd like to discuss more ways to help balance the marines or just the game in general. I for one believe that simply speeding up the time to research upgrades and making them cheaper will make everything more balanced for marines. If I can have armor 2 and weapons 2 out by the time they have fades... well you can see where I am going.

    They need to raise the skill ceiling for the marine comm. Chances are people playing commander are of higher intelligence than the simple FPS player. NS2 comming is pretty dumbed down compared to most strategy games. I am bored with comming because I feel limited. The only thing limiting me as comm is the lack of things for me to do. Playing as comm for me has a lot of down-time simply because I do everything so quickly. I have more time to spend watching my troops than worrying about buildings and upgrades. I spend most of my time dropping meds and ammo and scanning. This is probably the most important role of the commander... yet most people are stuck on yelling at the team for not getting them res for upgrades. Well keep them alive and they will!

    Another limiting factor on marines is the hit-reg for the players and the overall skill level of marine teams. On aliens you can just chuck norris around and not have to pay attention to much. On marines you need to be on the same level as the comm. Marines simply need more "cheap" tactics they can use. I don't know about you but extreme health onos and teleporting fades seem very "cheap" to me. The only cheap thing on marines is grenades at this point... and they aren't even that cheap.

    The rines need something to be more powerful. Obviously the exo-suit is the dev's answer to this problem but were still left with imbalance in early and mid game. They are gonna have to do more.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    edited April 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1920913:date=Apr 2 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Apr 2 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But Jucci, after playing a 20 minute match where as marines we played very well but still lost to an Alien team due to balance what brings me happiness is blocking the entrances, dragging it on and making the alien team cry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nothing better than humiliating the overpowered alien team :). Feels amazing.

    By the way guys I am trying to make a super awesome NS2 team. So, if anyone likes my ideas and comming strategy hit me up and we can try to get this going. I wanna show these other teams they have room for improvement.
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