<!--quoteo(post=1920284:date=Apr 1 2012, 07:06 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 1 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this in unrelated to the netcode /hit feedback issue that i was reponding to... but.. in regards to your issue, yes we (Playtesters) are actually looking at issues like that right now as i type. to include blood effects and steam effects impacting fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My quote was supposed to include his original post as well, as he did mention FPS in his opening sentence.
Good to hear this particular issue is being looked at :)
NS 1 fade killing (tracking a target applying damage continuously alot more skill involved) skill - NS 2 Fade Killing, (hope theres a situation where 5 marines get the fade alone and all shot 1 shot into him before he can leave) rely on random luck and fade mistake
<!--quoteo(post=1920235:date=Mar 31 2012, 07:40 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 31 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1920235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is a wave of lifeforms which dont do structure dmg very well intuitive for a win? how is any wave of same lifeforms intuitive to win? you start out this way as skulks rushing around and die generally - this should teach the player that waves of the same life form aren't enough to win - IF ANYTHING. A team of gorges? same thing.. it fails every time. As it should... so how do you consider this "<b>intuitive</b>" again? Just because "waves" occur by default does not make it naturally "intuitive".. and even if it did, that just gives another reason why it should be changed!
What <b><u>is </u></b>intuitive is the required mechanic of complementary teamwork. the lerk sprays so the skulks can fight. the gorge builds and heals so the fade can hit and run etc etc etc.. This is also known as Rock, paper, scissor mechanics, and if you see the high level design doc from charlie you will see they are intended.
And fnially, a game full of choices is a game which has <b>DEPTH</b> to it, and the ease in which a n00b can learn this depth is what makes it, "easy to learn, hard to master".. removing choice from a game is called a cutscene. Do you not think the devs are keenly aware that they need to communicate lots of little details to new players?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because skulks are crappy and gorges are a very cheap, not-at-all-suited-for-attack class.
Every class remotely suited for attack or direct combat <i>is</i> effective when you run in with a whole bunch of them out of the blue, the same is exactly true of marines. Rifle rush = not brilliant, although not terrible as marines do work well in groups, Welder/mines rush = stupid, any other weapon rush = highly effective.
Also intuitive means 'does not need to be taught'. Something that happens by default does not need to be taught, therefore it is intuitive, almost by definition, actually. Gravity is inutitive because it happens by default. Everyone buying a good upgrade as soon as it becomes available is intuitive. It is also effective because how exactly could it not be? Your enemy has done something unexpected and invested a sudden, large amount of resources into improving their combat ability. This will and should take you by surprise, and you will and should suffer for it, because it is an intelligent, reasonable, and effective thing to do.
The problem is not 'large groups of upgraded aliens out of the blue are a valid strategy' because why on earth would that not be a valid strategy? The problem is that they are a slightly too effective strategy, make them slightly less effective, but don't just try to arbitrarily obfuscate the strategy by making it more difficult to play the damn game properly.
Try making the marine counter more intuitive too, like giving them more advance warning, and ensuring they have a way to respond to a rush. One thing that springs to mind is moving the beacon ability over to the CC and making it available from the start, but also making it use more energy (combined with the inability to bulild more observatories means it is far more limited in how often it can be triggered) and also add an auto cast option, triggered when three or more aliens enter the room the CC is in (you can turn it off if you want, and also manually trigger it).
That way, marines have an innate protection against large rushes of lifeforms, an <i>intuitive</i> protection, which will happen automatically as a response to a large wave attack on the base, regardless of how new the players might or might not be. It still relies on the ability of players to shoot well, but it gives them the opportunity to fight back.
A game with a lot of options that only serve to obfuscate the effective options, hiding them behind a bunch of cool sounding wastes of time and money is not a deep game, it is an idiotic game. You <i>cannot</i> make a wave of unexpected lifeforms all attacking at once an ineffective strategy, without also making those lifeforms themselves completely useless in most situations. In order to make a wave of lerks not effective you would have to make it so lerks are physically incapable of damaging either marines or buildings, or make it so they die near instantly to some kind of marine weapon. If they can fight against every marine weapons and destroy any marine target, they are effective if you throw a lot of them at the marines without warning. I would not play a game which simply says 'no, you can't hurt this enemy because you need to be a different class'. There is <i>no</i> way in hell you could make that fun.
Comments
Marine : YAY!!! FADE KILLED!!! WE ARE WINNING!!!!!!!!
Alien : OMG!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implying you could kill fades in NS1
but.. in regards to your issue, yes we (Playtesters) are actually looking at issues like that right now as i type. to include blood effects and steam effects impacting fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My quote was supposed to include his original post as well, as he did mention FPS in his opening sentence.
Good to hear this particular issue is being looked at :)
skill -
NS 2 Fade Killing, (hope theres a situation where 5 marines get the fade alone and all shot 1 shot into him before he can leave)
rely on random luck and fade mistake
What <b><u>is </u></b>intuitive is the required mechanic of complementary teamwork. the lerk sprays so the skulks can fight. the gorge builds and heals so the fade can hit and run etc etc etc..
This is also known as Rock, paper, scissor mechanics, and if you see the high level design doc from charlie you will see they are intended.
And fnially, a game full of choices is a game which has <b>DEPTH</b> to it, and the ease in which a n00b can learn this depth is what makes it, "easy to learn, hard to master".. removing choice from a game is called a cutscene. Do you not think the devs are keenly aware that they need to communicate lots of little details to new players?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because skulks are crappy and gorges are a very cheap, not-at-all-suited-for-attack class.
Every class remotely suited for attack or direct combat <i>is</i> effective when you run in with a whole bunch of them out of the blue, the same is exactly true of marines. Rifle rush = not brilliant, although not terrible as marines do work well in groups, Welder/mines rush = stupid, any other weapon rush = highly effective.
Also intuitive means 'does not need to be taught'. Something that happens by default does not need to be taught, therefore it is intuitive, almost by definition, actually. Gravity is inutitive because it happens by default. Everyone buying a good upgrade as soon as it becomes available is intuitive. It is also effective because how exactly could it not be? Your enemy has done something unexpected and invested a sudden, large amount of resources into improving their combat ability. This will and should take you by surprise, and you will and should suffer for it, because it is an intelligent, reasonable, and effective thing to do.
The problem is not 'large groups of upgraded aliens out of the blue are a valid strategy' because why on earth would that not be a valid strategy? The problem is that they are a slightly too effective strategy, make them slightly less effective, but don't just try to arbitrarily obfuscate the strategy by making it more difficult to play the damn game properly.
Try making the marine counter more intuitive too, like giving them more advance warning, and ensuring they have a way to respond to a rush. One thing that springs to mind is moving the beacon ability over to the CC and making it available from the start, but also making it use more energy (combined with the inability to bulild more observatories means it is far more limited in how often it can be triggered) and also add an auto cast option, triggered when three or more aliens enter the room the CC is in (you can turn it off if you want, and also manually trigger it).
That way, marines have an innate protection against large rushes of lifeforms, an <i>intuitive</i> protection, which will happen automatically as a response to a large wave attack on the base, regardless of how new the players might or might not be. It still relies on the ability of players to shoot well, but it gives them the opportunity to fight back.
A game with a lot of options that only serve to obfuscate the effective options, hiding them behind a bunch of cool sounding wastes of time and money is not a deep game, it is an idiotic game. You <i>cannot</i> make a wave of unexpected lifeforms all attacking at once an ineffective strategy, without also making those lifeforms themselves completely useless in most situations. In order to make a wave of lerks not effective you would have to make it so lerks are physically incapable of damaging either marines or buildings, or make it so they die near instantly to some kind of marine weapon. If they can fight against every marine weapons and destroy any marine target, they are effective if you throw a lot of them at the marines without warning. I would not play a game which simply says 'no, you can't hurt this enemy because you need to be a different class'. There is <i>no</i> way in hell you could make that fun.