Grenade Delay, Fades, and other Balance Issues
MaximumSquid
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
Before anything else just want to say that the game is really shaping up and I'm playing it regularly now even with my dated machine
---
I was in a game that was going even when mid game hit
On marines we get a lucky kill on an early fade when he hits a corner of some machinery in the middle of the room while trying to blink away
<i>(So the fade made a mistake and we get a kill using normal weapons. . . all good so far)</i>
Later I'm in a tight hallway with a Nade launcher and a fade turns the corner
I shoot the nade as the fade blinks right at me
The nade is going to be a headshot and I'm thinking <u>I got this kill easy</u>*
<i>(another lucky kill since I'm alone, but I made the difficult skill check so the game is going to reward me right?)</i>
*Nope. . . Turns out nades have a huge delay after firing, doesn't even hit the fade, and insult to injury I get one shotted from a left click at full health/armor
<i>"Alright, lets try the other T2 weapon out"</i>, I'm thinking. . .
Same thing happens less than a minute later; Fade blinks right into me and I land the full headshot again and get one shotted
This time I'm not alone and my teamates get off some additional shots, but the fade still gets away
---
Now I'm calling BS and chatting with the other team about it constructively, but they respond with very bland remarks like "Fades are Balanced" or even "Fades are Paper" implying that they are actually underpowered
We continue losing ground horribly from what was previously an even footed game and the hypocrisy mounts as players saving for onos decide go Fade instead
<b>Their actions being proof that they agreed with what I was saying. . . </b>
---
Lets add more insult to injury: more than twice the time needed to get Armor 1 goes by while this dialogue is going on and then I see "Weapons 1 Researched" appear on my screen
I blow it off though as testing what is already in play takes priority
<b>80% of the enemy team is now Fades which is something I've never seen before</b> and our team gets completely crushed and overran on every front
I finally see Armor 1 researched, but it's way too late
---
I normally keep balance threads short, but I promised the guys in game that I would get yelled at on the forum instead since they were more interested in competitively finishing the game than trying to help test/fix it
Normally I would have something like:
"Onos are too weak late game when Marines are +3/+3 sighting multiple games where Marines were stuck in their base and it took lerks to end it when the 4 other classes were essentially powerless in breaking their defense"
Above example is not just allegory btw; I'm fairly serious about Onos failing as a siege unit in the current build
---
Getting back on what I was talking about though. . .<u>My sincere suggestions to fix the Fade situation:</u>
â— No 1 shots with left click while Marines still have armor
â— Punish Fades that attack head on <i>(Maybe make Nade hitting a blinked fade an insta gib?)</i>
â— Grenade also needs the delay removed <i>(Maybe add a check for a "Point-Blank" shot that hits instantly for anything <u>in whip range</u>*)</i>
â— Make alt attack on Fade viable <i>(Maybe make it <u>disable blink</u>** so you can't hit and run, but make it a fast attack)</i>
*If whips can slap you then you're probably close enough where they can't react fast enough to fling back a nade. . . also nades cause friendly fire; <u>they need to be a good weapon for that risk since they are too easily countered as siege utility right now</u>
**I really like the idea of fades being able to switch between hit and run / full offense, but at a risk of being unable to run away
---
Lastly for anyone wanting to say that our team should of researched upgrades NS:2 needs to be able to support multiple tech tree routes
They rushed fades, we rushed equipment, had the skill on our side <i>(enemy being reckless)</i>, and lost
-
---
I was in a game that was going even when mid game hit
On marines we get a lucky kill on an early fade when he hits a corner of some machinery in the middle of the room while trying to blink away
<i>(So the fade made a mistake and we get a kill using normal weapons. . . all good so far)</i>
Later I'm in a tight hallway with a Nade launcher and a fade turns the corner
I shoot the nade as the fade blinks right at me
The nade is going to be a headshot and I'm thinking <u>I got this kill easy</u>*
<i>(another lucky kill since I'm alone, but I made the difficult skill check so the game is going to reward me right?)</i>
*Nope. . . Turns out nades have a huge delay after firing, doesn't even hit the fade, and insult to injury I get one shotted from a left click at full health/armor
<i>"Alright, lets try the other T2 weapon out"</i>, I'm thinking. . .
Same thing happens less than a minute later; Fade blinks right into me and I land the full headshot again and get one shotted
This time I'm not alone and my teamates get off some additional shots, but the fade still gets away
---
Now I'm calling BS and chatting with the other team about it constructively, but they respond with very bland remarks like "Fades are Balanced" or even "Fades are Paper" implying that they are actually underpowered
We continue losing ground horribly from what was previously an even footed game and the hypocrisy mounts as players saving for onos decide go Fade instead
<b>Their actions being proof that they agreed with what I was saying. . . </b>
---
Lets add more insult to injury: more than twice the time needed to get Armor 1 goes by while this dialogue is going on and then I see "Weapons 1 Researched" appear on my screen
I blow it off though as testing what is already in play takes priority
<b>80% of the enemy team is now Fades which is something I've never seen before</b> and our team gets completely crushed and overran on every front
I finally see Armor 1 researched, but it's way too late
---
I normally keep balance threads short, but I promised the guys in game that I would get yelled at on the forum instead since they were more interested in competitively finishing the game than trying to help test/fix it
Normally I would have something like:
"Onos are too weak late game when Marines are +3/+3 sighting multiple games where Marines were stuck in their base and it took lerks to end it when the 4 other classes were essentially powerless in breaking their defense"
Above example is not just allegory btw; I'm fairly serious about Onos failing as a siege unit in the current build
---
Getting back on what I was talking about though. . .<u>My sincere suggestions to fix the Fade situation:</u>
â— No 1 shots with left click while Marines still have armor
â— Punish Fades that attack head on <i>(Maybe make Nade hitting a blinked fade an insta gib?)</i>
â— Grenade also needs the delay removed <i>(Maybe add a check for a "Point-Blank" shot that hits instantly for anything <u>in whip range</u>*)</i>
â— Make alt attack on Fade viable <i>(Maybe make it <u>disable blink</u>** so you can't hit and run, but make it a fast attack)</i>
*If whips can slap you then you're probably close enough where they can't react fast enough to fling back a nade. . . also nades cause friendly fire; <u>they need to be a good weapon for that risk since they are too easily countered as siege utility right now</u>
**I really like the idea of fades being able to switch between hit and run / full offense, but at a risk of being unable to run away
---
Lastly for anyone wanting to say that our team should of researched upgrades NS:2 needs to be able to support multiple tech tree routes
They rushed fades, we rushed equipment, had the skill on our side <i>(enemy being reckless)</i>, and lost
-
Comments
Fade is fine, really... if a grenade could possibly one hit kill a fade think about it, that's one ammo from a 25 res gun (that can be picked back up after death, no less) taking out a 52-56 res alien upgrade permanently. That's way too huge.
The ideal weapon for killing aliens is shotgun. Mind you, you won't one-shot them so if you're alone against a good fade, don't expect to win any more than you would any other weapon. The trick is to be together with at least one more marine so when the fade blinks in you can pump him full of shells from different angles immediately. Focus fire is key.
Only tweak I'd like to see fade get is a larger cooldown between blinks. Very frustrating when they limp away with no health but they're chain blinking with no energy left so you can't finish them off.
I wholeheartedly agree that the GL's delay between shooting and actually launching is too slow. This has been an issue for a while now, and the launching should be instantaneous. It would make lobbing grenades at high-speed lifeforms like fades and lerks much easier, instead of having to overcompensate and possibly killing yourself with your own grenade.
<!--quoteo(post=1922826:date=Apr 7 2012, 12:13 PM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Apr 7 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1922826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Grenades aren't really for killing players, they're for killing buildings. They're decent at holding off an area from skulks but that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While the wiki describes the GL as doing increased structural damage, I'm curious so to how much alien armor absorbs. I actually have a feeling that it still counts as heavy damage. I managed to kill two fades back-to-back last night that my teammate was engaging using a rifle. It was just us two and he was acting as bait. He got some decent hits in and my two grenades finished them off. Perhaps they were missing a chunk of HP from beforehand and were trying to get a quick kill on a lone rifle marine; I don't know.
Armor 0-1 = 2 hits, Armor 2-3 = 3 hits.
And stab should not be a insta kill regardless, however that ability really needs a rework as it is quite odd to use.
And stab should not be a insta kill regardless, however that ability really needs a rework as it is quite odd to use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that a1 should probably make fades 3 shot marines. I think that would be good for balance.
Ignoring arms for another tech path really only seems like a good choice if you currently have them stuck at shadow step. If you are denying them a second hive, its probably not a very close game anyways.
Then the shotgun were moved to light damage (armor absorbs four) to make it less effective against buildings. In compensation, it got 33% more damage (240 hits instead of 180). A carapaced fade now had 520 hits vs a 240 hit shotgun, so you needed 2.2 lvl 0 shotgun hits to kill a fade, but at lvl 1 or more, you did get down to 1.9 hits or less...
In 202, the shotgun was dropped to 200 damage, meaning you now need 2.6 point blank hits to kill a fade ... and even at lvl 3, you still need 2.26 hits.
To move that back to 2.2/1.9 etc hits, the fade needs to slim down its hits a bit. 2.2 * 200 is 440, so you need to drop 80 hits, which is 20 armor. Making the fade 160/35, with 25pts of armor from carapace (instead of the current 160/50/30) would achieve that.
In addition, the fade does 97.5 hits right now... which means two swipes does 190 hits. which is exactly what an armor lvl 1 marine has. Should probably be three hits, so I would suggest dropping the fade to do 90 hits instead of 97.5.
+11111111oneoneeleven
The collision-models in NS2 need some serious rework.
what about a passive upgrade that the commander can train, which gives grenade launchers a sort of blue line arc of trajectory on their HUD? making it easier to see if a grenade is going to hit an invisible wall corner or something
Sometimes it's impossible to predict when a teammate is going to walk into your line of fire.. I've had clear shots before and then suddenly a teammate runs like a chicken with its head cut off passed my screen cutting right by my line of fire.
Maybe have it so you can hold the grenade launch button and the grenade wont explode until you release it (passed the timer, so grenades dont blow up in your face if you meant to lob one). While this does prevent you from firing another one - it would save the GL'ers life so he can retreat to a safe distance - and then detonate it. This could also be used as new functionality.. grenades sitting on the ground waiting for passer-by aliens like remote mines.
How about this, if you hold right-click it will prime the grenade ready to fire, and give you the line <a href="http://i.imgur.com/tp0yN.jpg" target="_blank">arc of trajectory thing</a> for as long as you are holding the button? then release to fire it. It doesn't necessarily solve people running in front of you but I think it's a good idea with regard to figuring out where your grenade is going to go and not hit a prop and bounce back in your face
You can use the net_lag console command to add artificial lag to yourself and watch the effect.
All projectiles have this problem - bilebomb, spit and grenade. Lerk spikes used to be projectiles, but that didn't work out too well - a couple of lerks spiking pretty much killed the server. So they got to be insta shots instead.
I find that most of the time this happens it's because a whip threw it back at me. The rest of the time it's because the firing delay gave someone an opportunity to walk in front of me.
--Scythe--
Of course, this means that to anyone else, a lagged shooter would appear to have their projectiles appear in thin air a couple of meters ahead of them (20ms/sec for a grenade, 1/4 of sec -> 5m).
It would look and feel good to the lagged shooter though.
This is a problem in many games ... IIRC, in Halo, when you throw a grenade, they obscure the grenade with your arm to avoid the discrepancy.