Bringing back deeper res decisions and strategies
IeptBarakat
The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Giving the commander more control</div>The free p.res at the beginning is a relic of the old ns1 alien resource system. Unfortunately this means that each team is able to acquire lifeforms and weapons early without the consequences of such actions from the previous game. To balance the old with the new I have written a few suggestions to help produce some interesting gameplay decisions. Contains ns1 bias.
The idea is to have the game start with players having 0 p.res. And team res for kill to ward off early game rushes, which would make the other team be in a much greater position at the start of the game, causing each team to act more defensively as to not feed the other team. And lastly, give the commanders more control over their team's resources.
<b>Aliens</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/nQ51l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The alien commander takes a similar strategy found in the ns1 alien resource management. Being able to choose between defense, tech, or early lifeforms. In this the commander is able to spend t.res to drop evolution eggs the players can activate to freely evolve to the designated lifeform. Spending t.res on early game lifeforms would allow the commander to drop a Gorge egg to help spread infestation for a quick res node cap. Or sacrifice a hive or tech for high lifeforms in the early game.
<b>Marines</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/lApBX.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The commander would regain some of the control found in his ns1 roots, without having to babysit too much. The Marine Commander would be able to drop weapons for his teammates using team resources again, allowing him to choose between earlygame firepower, tech, or res flow.
<b>Resources</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/AkCDK.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Upgrading extractors/harvesters to extract p.res.
The current freeflowing personal resource system allows the player to obtain a bounty of res while not owning much territory.
Similar to the extractor/harvesters levels in the Alpha, upgrading an individual res tower to unlock p.res flow would allow the commander to customize their economy and make strategic decisions for tech or having the players be able to supply themselves sooner. Base node is upgraded that the start.
Personal resources aren't removed, they still allow a player to save up for a weapon/lifeform he/she has been saving up to get. Depending on the commander the outcome may be similar to current ns2 resources or similar to the resource and weapon management found in ns1.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->[tl;dr]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
All players start with 0 personal resources. Causing more importance on securing and taking down resource points.
A t.res for kill to ward off early game rushes and punish failed rushes.
Alien Commander can use t.res to drop evolution eggs for players to evolve with. Sacrificing hives and res flow for higher lifeforms.
Marine Commander gets to drop weapons with t.res again. Sacrificing tech and res flow for early game firepower.
Individual resource towers have to be upgraded to allow p.res flow. Base node is upgraded at the start.
Resource management can vary between commanders. Allowing situations similar to current ns2 or close to ns1.
The idea is to have the game start with players having 0 p.res. And team res for kill to ward off early game rushes, which would make the other team be in a much greater position at the start of the game, causing each team to act more defensively as to not feed the other team. And lastly, give the commanders more control over their team's resources.
<b>Aliens</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/nQ51l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The alien commander takes a similar strategy found in the ns1 alien resource management. Being able to choose between defense, tech, or early lifeforms. In this the commander is able to spend t.res to drop evolution eggs the players can activate to freely evolve to the designated lifeform. Spending t.res on early game lifeforms would allow the commander to drop a Gorge egg to help spread infestation for a quick res node cap. Or sacrifice a hive or tech for high lifeforms in the early game.
<b>Marines</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/lApBX.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The commander would regain some of the control found in his ns1 roots, without having to babysit too much. The Marine Commander would be able to drop weapons for his teammates using team resources again, allowing him to choose between earlygame firepower, tech, or res flow.
<b>Resources</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/AkCDK.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Upgrading extractors/harvesters to extract p.res.
The current freeflowing personal resource system allows the player to obtain a bounty of res while not owning much territory.
Similar to the extractor/harvesters levels in the Alpha, upgrading an individual res tower to unlock p.res flow would allow the commander to customize their economy and make strategic decisions for tech or having the players be able to supply themselves sooner. Base node is upgraded that the start.
Personal resources aren't removed, they still allow a player to save up for a weapon/lifeform he/she has been saving up to get. Depending on the commander the outcome may be similar to current ns2 resources or similar to the resource and weapon management found in ns1.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->[tl;dr]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
All players start with 0 personal resources. Causing more importance on securing and taking down resource points.
A t.res for kill to ward off early game rushes and punish failed rushes.
Alien Commander can use t.res to drop evolution eggs for players to evolve with. Sacrificing hives and res flow for higher lifeforms.
Marine Commander gets to drop weapons with t.res again. Sacrificing tech and res flow for early game firepower.
Individual resource towers have to be upgraded to allow p.res flow. Base node is upgraded at the start.
Resource management can vary between commanders. Allowing situations similar to current ns2 or close to ns1.
Comments
Not sure about evolution eggs though, especially with Fade and Onos. If TRes alone can't keep them from coming too early, perhaps add Comm. PRes to the cost as well.
One thing that is not very clear is how the res will scale with player count. The main reason to introduce the dual res system as I understood is to allow p-res to scale with player count (i.e. rts produce more p-res the more player there is on the server) while having constant t-res.
So how will the scaling wil work in your system, and will it be the same for marines and aliens ?
what if the upgrade only added to the amount of p.res.
overall interesting idea though.
One thing that is not very clear is how the res will scale with player count. The main reason to introduce the dual res system as I understood is to allow p-res to scale with player count (i.e. rts produce more p-res the more player there is on the server) while having constant t-res.
So how will the scaling wil work in your system, and will it be the same for marines and aliens ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the scaling in the idea is based on 'team res for kill' which would work well with any playercount. Which would be beneficial in keeping up with structure loss and damage in a higher player server. While not causing a drastic overflow in a low player server. Also making blind rushes and rambos less of a good idea and having more of those 'key moments' found in competitive games.
<!--quoteo(post=1924655:date=Apr 12 2012, 12:51 PM:name=Melatonin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melatonin @ Apr 12 2012, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->having to upgrade to allow p.res seems drastic.
what if the upgrade only added to the amount of p.res.
overall interesting idea though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Purchasing p.res flow is a way to bring the two res types together into a easier to balance situation. Also allowing strategic and personal commander choices which can change the way the game flows for your team. The current freeflowing p.res system doesn't allow as much depth or strategy and doesn't leave any penalties for spamming lifeforms or weapons.
I really don't like the idea of anything for kill, to be honest. It just makes larger matches speed up to out-of-control rates, and the fact than an enemy is dead should be the only reward combat needs. When Pres for kill got removed, I saw a lot less people suiciding into enemies and a lot more playing smart, because they knew there wasn't some magic artificial payoff to balance the odds of their risky rushes getting them killed.
<!--quoteo(post=1924676:date=Apr 12 2012, 12:54 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Apr 12 2012, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1924676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Purchasing p.res flow is a way to bring the two res types together into a easier to balance situation. Also allowing strategic and personal commander choices which can change the way the game flows for your team. The current freeflowing p.res system doesn't allow as much depth or strategy and doesn't leave any penalties for spamming lifeforms or weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this, I can get behind. Shade hive, Craig hive, Hive2, Whip spam, it doesn't matter; you get Onos at the same time either way.
Well that could be partially due to with a personal resource gain per kill they were rushing to get the kill that benefited themselves for their sooner shotgun, rather than actually benefiting the team. As earlier in the beta, people would purchase a shotgun and rush in and kill enough skulks to pay for the shotgun, die, respawn and buy another shotgun. Creating a cod like rushing experience which only benefited the player with blind rushing. It could be worth checking if the same would occur if the benefit went to the team rather than the individual player. With the natural potential of benefiting the other team if you blindly rush in and get yourself killed.
UWE developers have already stated they're not a big fan of introducing lifeform research though. An alternative would be inventing research that is ESSENTIAL to those lifeforms performing strongly. I.e an onos without proper tech researched (or enough hives or whatever, as long as its a t.res sink) should be considerably weaker than one that does have all the tech unlocked. UWE is currently trying to do this by unlocking abilities at hives, but it's a bit lacklustre, since most of the lifeforms are viable enough without a second or third hive (certainly the onos)
They need to beyond giving lifeforms new abilities at extra hives if they want to properly address this issue.
(I.e 1 hive onos could for example be smalled and have less armour and hp, 2-hive onos would be mature and only at 3 hives would onos get stomp. They might also have to make alien upgrades more powerful and crucial, and a bigger t.res sink)
The problem still lies in the alien or marine players fundamentally having unlimited personal resources to acquire their minefields or constant oni rushes. You can have the t.res cost for researching the lifeform, but once you research them and have players purchasing them with their personal resources, you get the same problem as the game currently suffers from.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/nQ51l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The alien commander takes a similar strategy found in the ns1 alien resource management. Being able to choose between defense, tech, or early lifeforms. In this the commander is able to spend t.res to drop evolution eggs the players can activate to freely evolve to the designated lifeform. Spending t.res on early game lifeforms would allow the commander to drop a Gorge egg to help spread infestation for a quick res node cap. Or sacrifice a hive or tech for high lifeforms in the early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such a good idea, but bad for this game.
With this, the biggest problem of NS1, especially for marines, that no noob players can have good weapon/lifeform would arise again. I mean, just like the most of marine commander did, commanders will definately give the egg only to top players, so bottom players would never get any chances to experience something else, and it would let players leave game. I remember lots of players of original Natural Selection have left the game because of those situations.
But i love GORGE EGG!!
Anyway, i think that problem, (what you mentioned : no connection between pres-tres) can be a bit adjusted if alien commander also need to unlock lifeforms just like marine comm unlocking the weapon and individual players purchase it.
Rest of mentions are for me kind of good things for devs to contemplate about
... but they don't have unlimited pres?
Yes
Besides, by tying lifeforms to T.res as well you:
- Make alien extractor losses much more devastating to alien teching, similar to how it is for marines. (Since not only do you need t.res to replace extractors, you also need t.res for important tech)
- Make early fade/onos a trade-off with other alien t.res investment, i.e you can't rush onos AND get a second hive up in the same stage of the game.
Though like I said, there's probably better ways to delay the alien lifeform-advancement, or at least make it so that strong lifeforms early game are a lot less powerful than their lategame counterparts. (This keeps the freedom of lifeform choice intact for players while still requiring a good bit of T.res alien tech to really bring those lifeforms to their full potential, which would only happen later in the game, unless it gets rushed at the cost of other tech)
Besides, by tying lifeforms to T.res as well you:
- Make alien extractor losses much more devastating to alien teching, similar to how it is for marines. (Since not only do you need t.res to replace extractors, you also need t.res for important tech)
- Make early fade/onos a trade-off with other alien t.res investment, i.e you can't rush onos AND get a second hive up in the same stage of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xarius explains it perfectly.
From the progress page:
<!--QuoteBegin-progress+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (progress)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Add another Commander ability for aliens (offensive vs. economy)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-progress+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (progress)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Add another Commander ability for marines (offensive vs. economy)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully this adds the needed depth for the game. Not a lot of strategical possibilities with the current res situation.