The growing presence of ringers in competitive scrims
Techercizer
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's starting to get rediculous</div>The presence of ringers in competitive scrims, something that was originally a benign and rare occurrence, has started getting out of control. It seems like every other game we play against the same one or two people, and it's getting to the point that we have more matches against partial teams than full ones.
What's more, the initial purpose of ringers, which was to provide an extra body on the field for teams that would otherwise have to forfeit, has been eclipsed by the impact these players are having. Our two games today had at least a third of the players on the enemy team brought in from outside, to the point they began to carry the entire team. As games dragged on, it was not uncommon to see the ringers having more kills combined than the actual team we came to fight.
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/003.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/K13RE.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/CiDPg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DoozU.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/2012-04-15_00004.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/2012-04-15_00005.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is getting out of hand. We at -[420]- want to play the teams who schedule matches with us, not half of them and whoever they throw in to one-up us. If a time doesn't work for your team, let us know when you're scheduling a match with us; we'll be happy to look for other times that work. If something comes up and you can't make it, let us know and we'll reschedule or push it back. In real competitive matches, the ones that will start up after release, failing to have enough players will be a forfeit. In the mean time, we would much rather wait a week or two to play with your team than fight the ringers you've brought in.
What's more, the initial purpose of ringers, which was to provide an extra body on the field for teams that would otherwise have to forfeit, has been eclipsed by the impact these players are having. Our two games today had at least a third of the players on the enemy team brought in from outside, to the point they began to carry the entire team. As games dragged on, it was not uncommon to see the ringers having more kills combined than the actual team we came to fight.
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/003.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/K13RE.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/CiDPg.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/DoozU.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/2012-04-15_00004.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/2012-04-15_00005.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This is getting out of hand. We at -[420]- want to play the teams who schedule matches with us, not half of them and whoever they throw in to one-up us. If a time doesn't work for your team, let us know when you're scheduling a match with us; we'll be happy to look for other times that work. If something comes up and you can't make it, let us know and we'll reschedule or push it back. In real competitive matches, the ones that will start up after release, failing to have enough players will be a forfeit. In the mean time, we would much rather wait a week or two to play with your team than fight the ringers you've brought in.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Still, there's a difference between ringers and <b>ringers</b>
<img src="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f249/Techercizer/2012-04-15_00004.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Those are some really nice ringers to have!
I'd still rather wait and play a team instead of a team with ringers just for the sake of good games. Most of those were not good games.
Unknown Worlds Forums > Natural Selection 2 > NS2 Competitive Play
Well if we just wanted to shoot random bunches of people, we'd hop in a gather or go pubbing. We want the opportunity to practice, and test, our team against other teams. Not against bits and chunks of other teams supplementing the same handful of people over and over.
I'd say it's <i>very</i> bad manners for a much more experienced player to jump in like that in a regular competitive community. Saying that, when I've done it I always tried to help the teams I was playing with to develop strategy and game sense... in one case it really came back to bite me seeing as they eventually went on to beat my own team in the ENSL season 1 finals. Cool nonetheless.
On the other hand, with such a small scene at the moment I think it's probable that without these mercs you wouldn't even be playing a game with them in the first place.
It's a toughy, but for now I'd say stick with it and hope that the opposing team uses some manners and forces the dude to command. IIRC we used to make mercs perm-gorge back in NS1 so we could actually practice our strategies and teamwork in as real a sense as possible.
The phenomenon you're highlighting was always done either by the less efficient teams to feel good about beating their kin or by the highly experienced player to get some jollies about dominating some random players.
edit: Oh yeah, we'd always ask and make sure it was ok to bring in non team-members as well.
That said, scrims are just scrims. I know if D|S was playing a true match for a tournament then we'd probably be unhappy with both spectators (excluding casters) and ringers, but we don't particularly care for the scrims. Scrims should be about focusing on your own teamwork and strategy. The better your opponents are, the better you get by playing them.
On the one hand, you get teams and individuals who just want to play whenever they can, as much as they can and see it as a form of continuous (and frequent) iterative improvement at a game.
On the other, you get teams of good mates who may very well spend a lot of time on strategies together but (I'm guessing) don't play as many practice games and therefore tend to see each one in the more serious manner of formally testing the strength of 'the team'.
It's just a different way of viewing practice games imo.
We should do that from now on - every clan should.
(we see it as practice, so we dont have a problem with ringers, especially considering the status and balance of the game and thats its just scrims... dunno how many of those dozen or by now hundreds of games we played with ringers involved in one of the teams or even both)
This is that line, MuYeah, where you appropriately said "without these mercs you wouldn't have had a game" - where i believe a clan might be less inclined to have their obvious loss broadcasted for all to see as it can hurt a reputation. <i>Nobody remembers player A carrying the team, they remember who won and who lost.</i>
<b>Edit</b>: Its important to note that i dont believe tech, or anyone here was trying to make anyone look bad. (if anything those screenshots make US look bad! lol) Its hard to bring up a topic like this without offending someone, especially since it comes across as a complaint. But know that its not directed at any singular player or clan. We've been experiencing this a lot lately and i think it was worth bringing up / changing our clan's policy. No hard feelings from this side, promise - and i apologize on the behalf of our clan if this offended anyone - definitely was not the intention of this thread.
In this match we had Treffnix and Lance, both which are really good players. Yesterday we played two games with less experienced mercs. It is also very hard to find mercs to play in the middle of the night. Usually it’s only the most experienced players who are available for mercing in the midnight.
We had no intention of upsetting anyone in anyway, we just wanted offer some good games for the community.
Today was fantastic for NS2 in general. We sustained 200 viewers, which is completely organic growth. Next weekend I am working to get us frontpaged on Twitch, and viewres will exceed four figures for sure.
Everyone should be extremely proud of themselves. Every team was utterly professional and helpful. Server snags, missing team members, and other drams were all sorted out very quickly. It is an absolute honour to be able to cast all of you.
I know I have always felt uncomfortable with my practice games being spectated for a number of reasons, not least because I personally have a horrible habit of making terrible snap in-game decisions or dying stupidly.
Keeping players active is directly tied to ego (whether they pretend to not be egoists is another matter) which in turn is directly intertwined with your group identity and if you're getting a fair crack at a win or not. On the other hand, you also need a base level of activity which mercs help to meet very well and it is a shame to have to cancel a scheduled PR-cast by NS2HD.
I guess the best response is to talk prior to the match beginning and have both teams agree on 1) the number of mercs and 2) who is merc-ing. If it feels fair to both sides then everything is OK, right?
edit: It's probably only fair to point out that it has been my experience that for teams who describe themselves as 'less-than-hardcore' <i>every match is essentially a practice match</i> unless explicitly in a tournament or league setting. Mainly because they have better things to be doing with their time than playing games 24/7
I don't claim to know the ins and outs of the NS2 community (yet), but I do sense a potential friction between that outlook and NS2HD using shoutcasted games as PR-fodder, no matter how non-cynical the situation is.
I'd say that playing as a close-knit group with a persistent online identity being broadcast to hundreds forces some kind of emotional investment in how you're perceived, no matter how little it really matters.
Edit: Apparently my comment above has upset someone. I apologize, but isn't it the truth?
If your complaining about ringers -- you've obviously never played a competitive esport before.
Would you see treffnix and lance playing for 156? No probably not. Neither do i think you would see shiv/gorge playing for arc.
To the OP - If your suggesting that 156 and arc are relatively unexperienced clans that need to get experienced mercs then yeah you really have no idea.
While I do agree that noone was carrying anyone else, no matter what the kills look like, we do need some discussion about the issue, regardless of whether it was a problem in these particular games or not.
I am not against ringers but I would like our scheduled games to be a competitive event against teams, not a team and a few of their best buddies. As for playing against better players, that is always a good thing. Not only do they inspire you, but they teach you how to improve on your own skills. Same goes for playing with people who are better than you.
When it comes down to it, if I'm going to take the time out of my personal life to schedule a competitive team event and make sure that my whole clan is there, I expect the other clan to have the same courtesy. It's ok if you can't get enough people every now and then but please don't schedule events if its a common occurrence.
Hugh, we really appreciate you casting our games and all of the hard work you put into it. NS2 has came a long way and I know that there is a lot more to look forward to. We have the highest respect for all of the teams and everyone who makes ns2 possible.
I say just try to have fun and play regardless of what the other team looks like.
My thoughts exactly.
Now if this we're in a actual tournament setting -- I would feel otherwise to agree.
It being just a scrimmage I see no harm in playing against ringers. In fact, if you don't like them don't agree to start the scrimmage with them present.
The NS2 competitive community is small. It's as simple as that.
Not every team can yield full team everytime especially if you increase the playercount adding a ringer or two and playing is better for the team than not playing.
But if a team want some special rules about this or something else, it's fine, they just need to state them clearly before the game.
next time you are in a game, and you see some players you rather not want to play the match against.. then dont play the match
or set up rules up front stating who you don't want to play against