<!--quoteo(post=1926513:date=Apr 17 2012, 03:49 PM:name=profjekyll)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (profjekyll @ Apr 17 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ach - apologies if I am being dumb, but what is everyone talking about? Where is the source / basis of this discussion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The main page? Recent news post: Alien Commander 2.0.
1) if the new changes are going to slow down early alien aggression (i think the changes only solve half the issue), does this mean that marine tech costs will go back up? it makes sense that if the marines can hold on to more nodes per game on average then tech will show up too early for aliens to handle.
2) would like marines to be able to do more about alien hive maturation. instead of spreading mist speeding maturation, have it be a function of how many structures are near each other?
<!--quoteo(post=1926513:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:49 PM:name=profjekyll)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (profjekyll @ Apr 17 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ach - apologies if I am being dumb, but what is everyone talking about? Where is the source / basis of this discussion?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This confusion about the particular bit of news/update being discussed in the forum threads is a recurring theme among new members.
It would be nice for the novices if, in the opening post, there was a link back to the news.
Implement "swarms" of nanobots (for the marines) and fireflies (for the aliens) which jet around the map, revealing alien and marine structures to one another. The "swarms" can be controlled by both comms, or set on an auto-path through the map. They are hard to catch/kill as they are fast and there are many of them.
Yay! Some of the things that I was hoping for in an <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=116453&view=findpost&p=1904087" target="_blank">earlier post</a> seem to be in the works. Structures still need to be manually built, but the auto-grow mechanic is nice and organic. Two thoughts:
If I could ask 1 thing from my original post, it would be for all alien structures to be movable. They don't need animations, maybe make a membrane envelop them, deactivate the structure, the membrane shrinks in one location and begins growing in another location (on infestation, of course). Once the move is done, the membrane "pops" and the structure is functional in its new location. This way an alien "gardener" could build a mass of forward structures in base, mature them, and redeploy them to a front line. For early game balance, maybe require that the structure be mature before it can be moved.
Second thought: This REALLY puts the marine team on a timer. This should somehow be made obvious to the marine players that the longer they wait, the stronger the alien force grows.
Oh wow, fantastic! I love the idea of the Alien commander now being a gardener rather then another Marine commander. I love it! I hated the Alien commander before, it felt wrong that the Marine commander had been ported over to Aliens, it really put me off playing Aliens. But I have to say, this is a perfect change.
<!--quoteo(post=1926086:date=Apr 16 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 16 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926086"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My only concern is (I assume this wasn't missed or not included, or that I didn't completely read past it) that while the Gorge has been made more important, the flaws of the Gorge are still right up front. Mini-cysts generally aren't worth the resources outside of putting on a surface for Hydras. Hydras are rarely ever worth the resources for the lackluster performance they give.
I mean I love that Gorges got bumped a bit to the forefront because of Alien team mechanics, but Gorge mechanics are still like nails on a chalkboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The concept of the Khamm "Gardener" sounds awesome, but I agree whole heartedly with this unknown_soldier: from everything it sounds like, the gorge's job will be run through the gutter.
Gorge will still get new abilities - but wont gain any this patch. Gorge still only places mini-cysts - which seem to still cost more than Khamm's and have less effectiveness (and will now be even less effective since they have no abilities). Gorge still can't place any important structures - Khamm will continue to place all structures which actually do any work. Gorge still wont have any offensive abilities - so now the gorge will have even more need to be protected and still just as little ability to protect themselves.
Meanwhile, the gorge seems to have lost even more as far as fun goes -> khara play will now require a gorge to sit around growing each individual building. So now gorge gameplay will consist of being the Khamm's lapdog.
I'll stop being so harsh 'til I have a chance to try out these changes, I'm just weary of what the gorgies will go through. And all you guys saying how great the Khamm position will be, try to remember the little fatties are actual people - not just AI running around building what you wish.
For those who are complaining about this encouraging turtling, it is easily solvable through tweaks in the resource model. If all aliens do is turtle to one hive, it keeps the amount of resource points they can have down. Now they're resource choked while the marines tech up much quicker then them.
<!--quoteo(post=1926133:date=Apr 17 2012, 04:47 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 17 2012, 04:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=0:date=Apr 18 2012, 01:14 AM:name=@NS2 (twitter))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (@NS2 (twitter) @ Apr 18 2012, 01:14 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pondering deep thoughts, inspired by WorthyRival (http://bit.ly/I0vJcq). Oh, how right you are good sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://twitter.com/#!/NS2/status/192390638602420226" target="_blank">the dev tweet</a>
@devs from me: again, I suggested this WAY back in b150:s in this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a> and here (later in the same thread) I clarified a little more detailed what my idea was: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&view=findpost&p=1811889" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1811889</a>
...
edit: you can always keep the drifters as an ALTERNATE way of making buildings, that has some advantage. say buildings growing on their own is slow, with gorge helping makes it fast AND the third alternative: drifter buildings are medium build speed advantages: no gorge needed for reasonable build-time, and maybe something else* disadvantages: drifter costs res, costs time to travel and is vulnerable to attack during transit
*...like: can take more dmg while growing or is cheaper to make, but that gain is what the drifter cost (so ±0) finishes half-way mature? (might be too powerful though)
Quick idea, I didn't have the time to read the whole thread, but the proposed changes look to me as if the importance of a 2nd hive (or a 3rd) is diminished a lot. The importance of those hives was what made it mandatory for aliens to go out and take map control ASAP, otherwise they couldn't evolve properly. Alien turtle was never effective.
So, to help promote the importance of more hives, what if buildings would take more time to build the farther away they are from the nearest hive (by cyst connections)? If you grow the buildings out of the ground, wouldn't it make sense that growing them farther away takes more time to do from the same hive? Or couldn't new buildings be continually slower to build, as the single hive supporting them is stretching to its limits to bring them up and keep them alive? From that, you gain an incentive to get more hives, if only to continue the growth at a reasonable pace.
To me, it also reinforces the idea of everything being alive and everything being some sort of big connected garden.
1.) To the people mad about cyst rupture, keep in mind that flare is going away. There are not "more" negative effects now.
2.) To the people afraid of insta-bile-bomb rush, read the timing in the linked document. It takes > 6 minutes to mature a hive with constant misting, and > 18 without. and that has to pass before aliens can even start researching augment to get bile bomb.
3.) I'm still agnostic about the implementation of pre-evolved lifeforms because I don't like the idea of the khamm doling out high-value rewards to individual players very much (might feel unfair or excluding). Even so, I'm not worried about people "feedng monster fades" at all. Marines can already do this with weapons, and I haven't seen anyone complain about that. They can even do it more effectively than aliens because anyone can buy his buddy a flamethrower and drop it without needing to comm-chair swap. Also, in my experience, by the time you kill a "monster fade", he's already got 50 res again. He doesn't need the charity of his comrades.
4.) Interesting dev tweet there. There are only two things I would really miss about drifters: flare and ninja hives. Flare is going away anyway, so as long as ninja hives can still happen somehow I'm happy. Keep drifters for hives only, or give it to gorge for all I care. It makes sense for hives to have a different mechanic than everything else since they are the only thing that causes infestation instead of requires it, right? Hives are the root, everything else is the fruit, flowers and bees. Now what's a good seed?
<!--quoteo(post=1926608:date=Apr 17 2012, 06:35 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Apr 17 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To respond to a few things being said:
1.) To the people mad about cyst rupture, keep in mind that flare is going away. There are not "more" negative effects now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
flare was/is seldom used. Rupture sounds like itll be used much more often (I have never been flared in my 120+ play hours)
I've never wanted to be a play tester until now...
Changes sound great and really do add the different play style I've always wanted between the two commanders. I love the 'goals' you have set for the alien commander and as a player think it's great that what I want is also what the game designer wants.
I'm really looking forward to playing these changes.
<!--quoteo(post=1926133:date=Apr 16 2012, 09:47 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 16 2012, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looking forward to trying it as I love to command.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree, why not simply allow the khara commander to directly build anywhere with creep (connected to a hive through cysts) and to compensate for the removal of drifters, make the building time depend on the distance the building is from a hive, so in a way the hive feeds (constructs) the building through the infestation (cysts) tunnels but the further this building is from the hive the longer it takes to complete (Gorge can help build it faster). This could also be relevant lore wise, makes sense doesn't it? After all the infestation is supposedly living organism.
<!--quoteo(post=1926620:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:09 PM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Apr 17 2012, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Completely agree, why not simply allow the khara commander to directly build anywhere with creep (connected to a hive through cysts) and to compensate for the removal of drifters, make the building time depend on the distance the building is from a hive, so in a way the hive feeds (constructs) the building through the infestation (cysts) tunnels but the further this building is from the hive the longer it takes to complete (Gorge can help build it faster). This could also be relevant lore wise, makes sense doesn't it? After all the infestation is supposedly living organism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1926613:date=Apr 17 2012, 08:50 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Apr 17 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->flare was/is seldom used. Rupture sounds like itll be used much more often (I have never been flared in my 120+ play hours)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always like using catalyst to send big drifter trains to constantly flare a marine base while under onos assault, but I know I'm in the minority. Rupture will only be usable when mature, plus it destroys the cyst, so it's costly. A new one is cheap, but it's newborn for the next minute+. That's probably not enough to make it as rarely used as flare though. You make a fair point. Will have to see how it plays.
For something quick and dirty the new material system layered over the animation of a growing structure, similar to the animation skulks have when they die. it would give the impression and feel like the structure was growing out of the infestation add a fade out effect when structure was almost complete. Remove the drifter from the interface and ta da structures growing out of infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1926454:date=Apr 18 2012, 03:09 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 18 2012, 03:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't get too worked up about marine impairments. We are constantly changing and revising this stuff, and exploring other options. For example, the slowdown on Gorge spit is getting removed, Lerk spores are going to be made slightly more transparent, we are looking into removing stun from Onos gore, etc.
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the impairments are fine. I think it's pretty stupid that somebody would consider them "annoyances" tbh... their whole point of existence is to ###### the marines up, of course they're going to be annoying.
<!--quoteo(post=1926133:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:47 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 16 2012, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=1926625:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:15 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 17 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For something quick and dirty the new material system layered over the animation of a growing structure, similar to the animation skulks have when they die. it would give the impression and feel like the structure was growing out of the infestation add a fade out effect when structure was almost complete. Remove the drifter from the interface and ta da structures growing out of infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a big supporter of this view, and I am glad someone raised the subject here-- even moreso now that the devs are now <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/NS2/status/192390638602420226" target="_blank">seriously considering it</a>.
I've made more complete arguments in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117806" target="_blank">thread</a> currently in I&S on the subject, and I've seen a lot of cool ideas being posted to it, so I encourage anyone interested in discussing a post-Drifter NS2 to join us there.
If you're looking for some inspiration on "soothing" strategy gameplay, you should have a look at The Settlers 2 (2006 remake: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_II_10th_Anniversary)" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_...th_Anniversary)</a> It's a RTS game that was widely popular in Germany, but never really had any international success. It plays a lot like you seem to want the alien comm to play.
Basically, you have no direct interaction with any of your units. All you do is build roads and buildings, everything else your settlers do by themselfs. It is very important to build efficient roads (much like spreading the DI) and it's really fun to do so. Afters phases of rapid expansion (or through capturing enemy territory) it is often necessary to go back and optimize your network, in order to make it more efficient. One reason why this game is really fun to play is, because sometimes you just sit back and marvel at your base and how well you built it, and watch all your little settlers do the work.
One idea that immediately comes to mind after this comparison, that you could implement some kind of mechanism, that requires the commander to build an "efficient" network of DI is to make buildings grow faster, if they are "better" connected to the hive. For example if you have a certain distance between the hive and a building, a building that is connected "through" more cysts, would grow faster. 1) Hive --------- Cyst ------------------------- Craig 2) Hive --------- Cyst -------- Cyst ---------- Craig 3) Hive --------- Cyst ------------------------- Craig ---------- Cyst ---------- Hive 2 In this example, Craig #2 would grow faster than #1, even though it has the same distance to the hive. Craig #3 would grow even faster than #2.
Another more radical approach would be, to get rid of team resources for the alien commander all together. Instead, at every tick the harvesters would "send out" a glowing ball (indicating a "resource package") through the DI to the nearest hive, from where it is then routed to other structures which are currently growing or evolving. The initial placement of any structures is free, but the speed of growth depends on how many resource packages it receives. So if you build 5 whips at once, they all would grow slower than if you build only one. If at any point the DI connection is severed, the buildings would stop to grow at all. If a harvester is disconnected from a hive, the resource packages it would generate every tick will be lost. The alien commander could prioritze a building through some ability, which would route more resources packages to it and allow it to grow faster.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Due to the relative increase in cost of researching alien upgrades, alien evolutions no longer cost any pres (but they do take time to evolve still)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did I get that right?
And what about ARCs? Currently late-game marine bases take a lot of effort to destroy, while ARCs can flatten things very quickly (even with little player help). Does it make sense for infestation to nerf them slightly, e.g. 25% chance of misfire or slower movement?
Cyborg16: Asymmetry. Enough said about this change except: When can we expect it? obviously Tuesday is out the door, next week? I don't want to join a beta game and play something that adds nothing to current knowledge... next Tuesday? Just call it, we will handle, it's a big change after all.....
<!--quoteo(post=1926667:date=Apr 18 2012, 08:07 AM:name=demm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (demm @ Apr 18 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're looking for some inspiration on "soothing" strategy gameplay, you should have a look at The Settlers 2 (2006 remake: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_II_10th_Anniversary)" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_...th_Anniversary)</a> It's a RTS game that was widely popular in Germany, but never really had any international success. It plays a lot like you seem to want the alien comm to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or why not Settlers I (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0VETX5Ji3I" target="_blank">video</a>). :) Great game (and with flags instead of Cysts and castles instead of Hives). Settlers is a good example of a more ... indirect RTS game, if that is what the devs are aiming at for the Khamm. I'm not sure it's such a great concept for a fast-paced RTS multiplayer game though.
Anyway, the idea about "resource packages" pulsing through the cyst network is interesting though. It would make the game even more asymmetric. If the Marines want to disrupt the Aliens res flow, they wouldn't necessarily have to destroy res towers, just focus on the choke points where these "res packages" have to pass to reach a part of the map where Alien structures are grown (for instance a new Hive that the Marines plan to take out). Also, disrupting res flow like this resembles taking out workers in for instance StarCraft. The Marines would temporarily damage the economy quickly (perhaps with jetpackers), not fight their way through the entire map to flush out all the Aliens res towers.
Comments
The main page? Recent news post: Alien Commander 2.0.
1) if the new changes are going to slow down early alien aggression (i think the changes only solve half the issue), does this mean that marine tech costs will go back up? it makes sense that if the marines can hold on to more nodes per game on average then tech will show up too early for aliens to handle.
2) would like marines to be able to do more about alien hive maturation. instead of spreading mist speeding maturation, have it be a function of how many structures are near each other?
Thanks - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/</a>
This confusion about the particular bit of news/update being discussed in the forum threads is a recurring theme among new members.
It would be nice for the novices if, in the opening post, there was a link back to the news.
Implement "swarms" of nanobots (for the marines) and fireflies (for the aliens) which jet around the map, revealing alien and marine structures to one another.
The "swarms" can be controlled by both comms, or set on an auto-path through the map. They are hard to catch/kill as they are fast and there are many of them.
If I could ask 1 thing from my original post, it would be for all alien structures to be movable. They don't need animations, maybe make a membrane envelop them, deactivate the structure, the membrane shrinks in one location and begins growing in another location (on infestation, of course). Once the move is done, the membrane "pops" and the structure is functional in its new location. This way an alien "gardener" could build a mass of forward structures in base, mature them, and redeploy them to a front line. For early game balance, maybe require that the structure be mature before it can be moved.
Second thought: This REALLY puts the marine team on a timer. This should somehow be made obvious to the marine players that the longer they wait, the stronger the alien force grows.
I mean I love that Gorges got bumped a bit to the forefront because of Alien team mechanics, but Gorge mechanics are still like nails on a chalkboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The concept of the Khamm "Gardener" sounds awesome, but I agree whole heartedly with this unknown_soldier: from everything it sounds like, the gorge's job will be run through the gutter.
Gorge will still get new abilities - but wont gain any this patch.
Gorge still only places mini-cysts - which seem to still cost more than Khamm's and have less effectiveness (and will now be even less effective since they have no abilities).
Gorge still can't place any important structures - Khamm will continue to place all structures which actually do any work.
Gorge still wont have any offensive abilities - so now the gorge will have even more need to be protected and still just as little ability to protect themselves.
Meanwhile, the gorge seems to have lost even more as far as fun goes -> khara play will now require a gorge to sit around growing each individual building. So now gorge gameplay will consist of being the Khamm's lapdog.
I'll stop being so harsh 'til I have a chance to try out these changes, I'm just weary of what the gorgies will go through. And all you guys saying how great the Khamm position will be, try to remember the little fatties are actual people - not just AI running around building what you wish.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience
I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Apr 18 2012, 01:14 AM:name=@NS2 (twitter))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (@NS2 (twitter) @ Apr 18 2012, 01:14 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pondering deep thoughts, inspired by WorthyRival (http://bit.ly/I0vJcq). Oh, how right you are good sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><a href="http://twitter.com/#!/NS2/status/192390638602420226" target="_blank">the dev tweet</a>
@devs from me:
again, I suggested this WAY back in b150:s in this thread:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
and here (later in the same thread) I clarified a little more detailed what my idea was:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&view=findpost&p=1811889" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1811889</a>
...
edit:
you can always keep the drifters as an ALTERNATE way of making buildings, that has some advantage.
say buildings growing on their own is slow, with gorge helping makes it fast
AND the third alternative: drifter buildings are medium build speed
advantages: no gorge needed for reasonable build-time, and maybe something else*
disadvantages: drifter costs res, costs time to travel and is vulnerable to attack during transit
*...like: can take more dmg while growing
or is cheaper to make, but that gain is what the drifter cost (so ±0)
finishes half-way mature? (might be too powerful though)
edit2: fixed links
The page you were looking for doesn't exist.
You may have mistyped the address or the page may have moved.
So, to help promote the importance of more hives, what if buildings would take more time to build the farther away they are from the nearest hive (by cyst connections)? If you grow the buildings out of the ground, wouldn't it make sense that growing them farther away takes more time to do from the same hive? Or couldn't new buildings be continually slower to build, as the single hive supporting them is stretching to its limits to bring them up and keep them alive? From that, you gain an incentive to get more hives, if only to continue the growth at a reasonable pace.
To me, it also reinforces the idea of everything being alive and everything being some sort of big connected garden.
1.) To the people mad about cyst rupture, keep in mind that flare is going away. There are not "more" negative effects now.
2.) To the people afraid of insta-bile-bomb rush, read the timing in the linked document. It takes > 6 minutes to mature a hive with constant misting, and > 18 without. and that has to pass before aliens can even start researching augment to get bile bomb.
3.) I'm still agnostic about the implementation of pre-evolved lifeforms because I don't like the idea of the khamm doling out high-value rewards to individual players very much (might feel unfair or excluding). Even so, I'm not worried about people "feedng monster fades" at all. Marines can already do this with weapons, and I haven't seen anyone complain about that. They can even do it more effectively than aliens because anyone can buy his buddy a flamethrower and drop it without needing to comm-chair swap. Also, in my experience, by the time you kill a "monster fade", he's already got 50 res again. He doesn't need the charity of his comrades.
4.) Interesting dev tweet there. There are only two things I would really miss about drifters: flare and ninja hives. Flare is going away anyway, so as long as ninja hives can still happen somehow I'm happy. Keep drifters for hives only, or give it to gorge for all I care. It makes sense for hives to have a different mechanic than everything else since they are the only thing that causes infestation instead of requires it, right? Hives are the root, everything else is the fruit, flowers and bees. Now what's a good seed?
1.) To the people mad about cyst rupture, keep in mind that flare is going away. There are not "more" negative effects now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
flare was/is seldom used. Rupture sounds like itll be used much more often (I have never been flared in my 120+ play hours)
Changes sound great and really do add the different play style I've always wanted between the two commanders. I love the 'goals' you have set for the alien commander and as a player think it's great that what I want is also what the game designer wants.
I'm really looking forward to playing these changes.
I want to point out this statement - The Alien Commander is a “gardener†- he interacts <u>DIRECTLY </u>with the environment
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience
I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree, why not simply allow the khara commander to directly build anywhere with creep (connected to a hive through cysts) and to compensate for the removal of drifters, make the building time depend on the distance the building is from a hive, so in a way the hive feeds (constructs) the building through the infestation (cysts) tunnels but the further this building is from the hive the longer it takes to complete (Gorge can help build it faster). This could also be relevant lore wise, makes sense doesn't it? After all the infestation is supposedly living organism.
I REALLY like this !
I always like using catalyst to send big drifter trains to constantly flare a marine base while under onos assault, but I know I'm in the minority. Rupture will only be usable when mature, plus it destroys the cyst, so it's costly. A new one is cheap, but it's newborn for the next minute+. That's probably not enough to make it as rarely used as flare though. You make a fair point. Will have to see how it plays.
But, yes, there are still going to be some abilities that impair marines sight and/ or movement or something else. It makes for a pretty boring game if every single one of the alien abilities and alien commander abilites and alien structure abilities, of which there are quite a few different ones in the game, only do damage/armor reduction. We've been pretty conscious of the negative consequences of adding these, and we've been listening to the community as well, to try to minimize the frustration impairment abilities can cause. But we feel the variety in gameplay, and immersive feedback these can provide is worth the tradeoff.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the impairments are fine. I think it's pretty stupid that somebody would consider them "annoyances" tbh... their whole point of existence is to ###### the marines up, of course they're going to be annoying.
Untill the alien commander stops interacting with drifters to effect the environment you will never achieve this design goal.
Drifters are what create a barrier between the commander and the environment, They also make his interface a clunky experience
I understand the need for asymmetry but it's getting in the way of a design goal and smooth command interface experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo(post=1926625:date=Apr 17 2012, 10:15 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Apr 17 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For something quick and dirty the new material system layered over the animation of a growing structure, similar to the animation skulks have when they die. it would give the impression and feel like the structure was growing out of the infestation add a fade out effect when structure was almost complete. Remove the drifter from the interface and ta da structures growing out of infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a big supporter of this view, and I am glad someone raised the subject here-- even moreso now that the devs are now <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/NS2/status/192390638602420226" target="_blank">seriously considering it</a>.
I've made more complete arguments in the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117806" target="_blank">thread</a> currently in I&S on the subject, and I've seen a lot of cool ideas being posted to it, so I encourage anyone interested in discussing a post-Drifter NS2 to join us there.
It's a RTS game that was widely popular in Germany, but never really had any international success. It plays a lot like you seem to want the alien comm to play.
Basically, you have no direct interaction with any of your units. All you do is build roads and buildings, everything else your settlers do by themselfs. It is very important to build efficient roads (much like spreading the DI) and it's really fun to do so. Afters phases of rapid expansion (or through capturing enemy territory) it is often necessary to go back and optimize your network, in order to make it more efficient.
One reason why this game is really fun to play is, because sometimes you just sit back and marvel at your base and how well you built it, and watch all your little settlers do the work.
One idea that immediately comes to mind after this comparison, that you could implement some kind of mechanism, that requires the commander to build an "efficient" network of DI is to make buildings grow faster, if they are "better" connected to the hive. For example if you have a certain distance between the hive and a building, a building that is connected "through" more cysts, would grow faster.
1) Hive --------- Cyst ------------------------- Craig
2) Hive --------- Cyst -------- Cyst ---------- Craig
3) Hive --------- Cyst ------------------------- Craig ---------- Cyst ---------- Hive 2
In this example, Craig #2 would grow faster than #1, even though it has the same distance to the hive. Craig #3 would grow even faster than #2.
Another more radical approach would be, to get rid of team resources for the alien commander all together. Instead, at every tick the harvesters would "send out" a glowing ball (indicating a "resource package") through the DI to the nearest hive, from where it is then routed to other structures which are currently growing or evolving. The initial placement of any structures is free, but the speed of growth depends on how many resource packages it receives. So if you build 5 whips at once, they all would grow slower than if you build only one. If at any point the DI connection is severed, the buildings would stop to grow at all. If a harvester is disconnected from a hive, the resource packages it would generate every tick will be lost.
The alien commander could prioritze a building through some ability, which would route more resources packages to it and allow it to grow faster.
Did I get that right?
And what about ARCs? Currently late-game marine bases take a lot of effort to destroy, while ARCs can flatten things very quickly (even with little player help). Does it make sense for infestation to nerf them slightly, e.g. 25% chance of misfire or slower movement?
It's a RTS game that was widely popular in Germany, but never really had any international success. It plays a lot like you seem to want the alien comm to play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or why not Settlers I (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0VETX5Ji3I" target="_blank">video</a>). :) Great game (and with flags instead of Cysts and castles instead of Hives). Settlers is a good example of a more ... indirect RTS game, if that is what the devs are aiming at for the Khamm. I'm not sure it's such a great concept for a fast-paced RTS multiplayer game though.
Anyway, the idea about "resource packages" pulsing through the cyst network is interesting though. It would make the game even more asymmetric. If the Marines want to disrupt the Aliens res flow, they wouldn't necessarily have to destroy res towers, just focus on the choke points where these "res packages" have to pass to reach a part of the map where Alien structures are grown (for instance a new Hive that the Marines plan to take out). Also, disrupting res flow like this resembles taking out workers in for instance StarCraft. The Marines would temporarily damage the economy quickly (perhaps with jetpackers), not fight their way through the entire map to flush out all the Aliens res towers.
Really complicated though...