Bile Bomb Alterations
Champlo0
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Ideas</div>I've thought of various bile bomb implementations that would alleviate the current dominance they have as a tactic. Here's a few.
(These are all exclusive functions; I am not suggesting to make the bile-bomb do everything in this list, just to do at least one of them)
-Bile bombs don't damage structures but make them take 1.5 times as much damage from damage
-Bile bomb slows marines by 30% and makes jet pack fuel be consumed twice as fast.
-Makes turrets stop functioning
-Slows arcs by 70%
-Makes arcs take 2 times as much damage
-Slows welding speed by 30%
-Removes effects of nano-shield (nano stays on, just is nullified)
-Stops construction
-Severely slows construction
-Halves the effects of med-kits and armory healing
All these, however, reside on the premise of <b>removing the damage</b> from the bile bomb itself and its <b>AoE</b> down to <b>one target</b>.
The idea behind this is that the lerk should be a disrupting class that supports the main attackers which it would do so without being an super-dominant tactic. By removing the damage the bile bomb loses its ability to swoop in and cause serious damage to the marine base as a solo attacker and changes it to a supporting tactic that requires coordination. These implementations that I have suggested (and by no means do I suggest implementing all of them, as few as one or two would suffice) would allow the bile bomb to still retain a definite strength in its applications while fitting what I believe is the role of the lerk.
(and no I don't think bile bomb should be put back to gorges, it fits the role of the lerk better than the role of the gorge in my opinion)
These are just suggestions I'm putting forward to you guys as a whole for your feedback and your ideas so that we can collectively offer the devs a solid, thought-out design change for the bile-bomb.
(These are all exclusive functions; I am not suggesting to make the bile-bomb do everything in this list, just to do at least one of them)
-Bile bombs don't damage structures but make them take 1.5 times as much damage from damage
-Bile bomb slows marines by 30% and makes jet pack fuel be consumed twice as fast.
-Makes turrets stop functioning
-Slows arcs by 70%
-Makes arcs take 2 times as much damage
-Slows welding speed by 30%
-Removes effects of nano-shield (nano stays on, just is nullified)
-Stops construction
-Severely slows construction
-Halves the effects of med-kits and armory healing
All these, however, reside on the premise of <b>removing the damage</b> from the bile bomb itself and its <b>AoE</b> down to <b>one target</b>.
The idea behind this is that the lerk should be a disrupting class that supports the main attackers which it would do so without being an super-dominant tactic. By removing the damage the bile bomb loses its ability to swoop in and cause serious damage to the marine base as a solo attacker and changes it to a supporting tactic that requires coordination. These implementations that I have suggested (and by no means do I suggest implementing all of them, as few as one or two would suffice) would allow the bile bomb to still retain a definite strength in its applications while fitting what I believe is the role of the lerk.
(and no I don't think bile bomb should be put back to gorges, it fits the role of the lerk better than the role of the gorge in my opinion)
These are just suggestions I'm putting forward to you guys as a whole for your feedback and your ideas so that we can collectively offer the devs a solid, thought-out design change for the bile-bomb.
Comments
They're tricky to shoot right now due to performance, but once that gets worked out you'll realize how fragile they are/
not even close. I'd rather go up against a fade than a lerk.
That's because they're difficult to aim at due to various glitches and movement imperfections. It takes 24 bullets to kill a Carapace Lerk, but you can enter a clip into a Fade.
They're tricky to shoot right now due to performance, but once that gets worked out you'll realize how fragile they are/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, no... As it is Lerks are extremely overpowered in beta build 205. You have the ability to power mist a hive to maturity within 5 minutes and 30 seconds to 6 minutes. At that exact same time you can instantly augment to bile bomb. You then take that and mass evolve 6 fellow alien teammates to lerks, group up, and then bile bomb rush the command station and base. You win by minute 7 almost 99% of the time if misted right. The fact that bile bomb stacks right now on top of 5 minute augmentation to bile bomb is absolutely overpowered. I just won 9 games in a row in under 8 minutes using that strat.
Even with ARC counters you end up meeting in the middle vs lerks and lerks obliterate ARCS in 15 seconds or less. I can see marines attempting to counter with GL rushes but by the time lerks are up and bile bombing it won't even matter. The last game I just played we rushed 8 lerks into Flight Control and won in 10 seconds while they had their entire team defending... The game was at 6 minutes btw.
The best solution to bile bomb is to either make it only available once you get a 2nd or 3rd hive, or just completely change the way the mechanic works... Because a support class shouldn't be able to dominate every game.
Even with ARC counters you end up meeting in the middle vs lerks and lerks obliterate ARCS in 15 seconds or less. I can see marines attempting to counter with GL rushes but by the time lerks are up and bile bombing it won't even matter. The last game I just played we rushed 8 lerks into Flight Control and won in 10 seconds... The game was at 6 minutes btw.
The best solution to bile bomb is to either make it only available once you get a 2nd or 3rd hive, or just completely change the way the mechanic works... Because a support class shouldn't be able to dominate every game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, no. You can kill 2 Carapace Lerks in one clip. You don't <i>see</i> people killing Lerks easily because of hit registration issues and ambiguous hitboxes, but mechanically speaking a group of 6 Lerks can be quickly shut down by a group of 3 marines, and moderately shut down by two.
In competitive games, it really hurts to Lerk against people with good aim; they just shut you down so fast you don't even have time to do anything, often with lvl 0 LMGs.
Right... So you're going to tell me 3 marines are going to kill 6 lerks that 1-2 have gassed up the entire zone making aiming x5 difficult on a already hard/broken reg? While 4 lerks are bile bombing and destroying your base in 10 seconds? Yeah, maybe if you're some CAL-I ALL STAR THAT CAN AIM LIKE LEBRON JAMES.
I'm talking about the general public... Not ALL STAR competitive fraggers that take up 2% of a game. And regardless I bet a good competitive team could destroy using a lerk rush vs a good competitive marine team. If you get one fade in with 4-5 lerks, lolgg.
Or, you know, if Lerk gas transparency is adjusted/increased to facilitate aiming, as it is planed to, after hit registration is greatly increased, which is again planned and mentioned numerous times in my posts here.
Then yes. It shouldn't be too difficult, and weapon upgrades will only aid in the ease of the process.
<!--quoteo(post=1928046:date=Apr 21 2012, 01:45 AM:name=Mr_Duck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Duck @ Apr 21 2012, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm talking about the general public... Not ALL STAR competitive fraggers that take up 2% of a game. And regardless I bet a good competitive team could destroy using a lerk rush vs a good competitive marine team. If you get one fade in with 4-5 lerks, lolgg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about facts. Hard numbers. Damage per shot and shots per clip, vs lifeform health. Arguing that the current difficulty that "pubbers" experience aiming at Lerks is in any way indicative of what their abilities will be when gameplay is cleaned up and v1.0 is released is pointless and futile, much like most exercises that rely on clairvoyance.
P.S. YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE MANY WEAPON UPGRADES/res AT 5 MINUTES IN THE GAME.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) What "games you played" are irrelevant. My statements about the stats of LMG and Lerk are facts. Potentially wrong facts; I am human. They are, however, not anecdotal. Any attempt to describe the impact of future performance changes using current anecdotal evidence is pointless and ill-suited.
2) Upgrades vary from commander to commander, and screaming at me does nothing to further your argument. You may wish to consider taking a brief break from posting if you find yourself getting emotional.
2) Upgrades vary from commander to commander, and screaming at me does nothing to further your argument.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't really a scream more or less a troll of caps lock. Regardless, you can argue mathematical stats of how much "damage" a weapon does and how many hit points it takes to kill a lerk but that doesn't change the fact that rushing 8 lerks is auto-win when bile bomb STACKS and takes a comm chair out in 8-10 seconds. By the time you kill all the lerks with your "2 carapace lerks with one clip" more like 3 clips, you've already lost.
Again, how strong a squad of Lerks appears to be in this build is in no way indicative of how strong they will be once they become easier to target and hit. 8 Lerks is not an "auto-win" because it does not automatically win the game, and a squad of 8 lerks can mathematically, misses not withstanding, be killed by an equal squad of 8 0res Marines before they even drop their second bomb. Alternatively, they can be killed by a squad of 8 20res Shotgun Marines before they even drop the first.
Edit: I would also like to point out that it takes at least 12 BBs to kill a Com Chair (assuming armor is taken down 1:1 with health due to corrode damage. If 2:1, it takes 15), and double that to kill a shielded one.
And that right there is why nothing you've said so far has applied to my original statements. Your points are a bit of a non sequitur; they don't address or refute any of the information you posted them in a response to. This entire thread, everything I've said about how easy it is to kill a Lerk has been in the future tense, or later, mathematically abstract.
The point of the lerk being fast is that its supposed to defy bullet damage maths with good movement and awareness skill.. There is damage maths, but there is also lmg spread and lerk model profile. Sure if you had 8 marines waiting in base specifically to kill the lerks it may not be an autowin 100%, but don't you think its a bit too much to expect? Smart lerks won't just run suicide into your base, they will just trap you in your base gg res starve win.
Simplifying quickly to make the point that you can't reasonably expect pubs to have the whole team or equal numbers prepared to kill lerk swarm - If you send half your team one way, lerk mobility will swarm and kill them. If you send your whole team one way, lerk mobility will kill your base. If you stay in base, you lose (or atleast should)
It really is a fragile little thing; there's just so many lost frames and sharp movements and distracting wings and bullets that should hit but don't that it winds up being much tougher to kill than it should. Hence back to my original post:
A Lerk is very fragile, and the only way it will be able to take out a base (once balanced and cleaned up as has already been planned) is if the base is empty or the occupying Marine(s) are massively outplayed.
They're tricky to shoot right now due to performance, but once that gets worked out you'll realize how fragile they are/
Maybe you should take a break from the forums and catch a breather big guy. It's been a long day, we know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Insults of other members are both against community guidelines and detrimental to the community as a whole. I suggest you stop your ad hominem attacks before the situation degenerates further.
I remember lerk rush being incredibly effective and spike being tuned heavily to prevent this. The thought occured to me that bilebomb may be causing the same problem that we were trying to avoid with spikes? 5-6 minute timing is still pretty early imo.
In response to your arguments, however, talking about a theoretical aimbot player is irrelevant (one that hits enough shots to down a lerk in a single clip), real players have recoil and then still have to hit lerks through their spores (if they drop them). Talking about a higher level of play still won't balance things for most games and most players either; lerks as skilled as the marines you claim will be able to dump one clip to kill will not be so foolish as to allow the marines they're fighting against those shots, they will dodge, hide, peek fire, do more things than a regular lerk does to dodge. All this being said, lerks can be killed but it is rare. I do believe the game will get to a more proper balance once the hit detection is improved, however bile bomb will still be a problem in its current implementation. As I previously stated the goal of this discussion is to find an implementation of bile bomb as strong as the current one, but in a different way that will heavily encourage teamwork on the alien side.
Well, if it takes you upwards of 2 minutes to 'coordinate an attack' and you have to put 'defending your stuff' on hold during that time, I guess it's a realistic proposition...
No, they have not fixed those two yet, so those arguments supplied don't yet have a place. Hit registration is currently being worked on by Max, and performance still has a long way to go. (exciting)
BB is imbalanced, not the Lerk.
There's a million ways to address this: Larger energy consumption, larger cooldown, more welder impact /faster welder, no stacking, less stacking, less damage, less DOT, shorter time of dmg, less splash damage, slowing while delivering bile bomb like an egg. etc etc etc
<b>Its ripe for adjustments and has been since implemented on the gorge.
</b>
Now to address every single point so there's no confusion:
<i>"You then take that and mass evolve 6 fellow alien teammates to lerks"</i>
This is an issue with Mass tech/life forms and is a game design issue not a lerk issue. See the many threads on it and RPS mechanics.
<i>"Because a support class shouldn't be able to dominate every game. "</i>
He is officially defined as "The harasser" despite his potential for spore support. (remember it stops turrets too)
<i>"P.S. YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE MANY WEAPON UPGRADES/res AT 5 MINUTES IN THE GAME. "</i>
Once again this is not an issue with the lerk, but rather starting Pres being too high and cutting out the early game. Expect changes to this soon given the changes with gorge lately.
<i>"This entire thread was made about changing the way lerks work because they're broken."</i>
No, the OP suggests changes to the BB, not the lerk. Lerks are not broken. Hit reg and performance may be. BB definitely is. see above.
<i>"I'm talking about the HERE and NOW beta build. I'm not talking about what you assume to be true because they've spoken of making it "easier" to target and hit lerks. "</i>
Thats the problem, you aren't considering that your proposed topic/changes are moot once the next patch comes out that potentially changes how BB and or lerk works. In other words / as an example: Saying there's nothing to combat Onos effectively in this patch <i>so we should change the Onos</i> - DESPITE the fact that Exo will be coming in to play that role,<b> is pre emptive and a waste of time/discussion/effort for anyone.</b> Its tough to balance a game that does not yet have all it's features implemented / running properly, making band aid adjustments NOW may be counter productive and more work than its worth if the next patch can help fix it.
Its not hard to say that tech is not "assuming" when he says that improved hit registration and performance will change the balance of the lerk / all aliens.
I hope this helps.
As for lerks being hard to hit... wait for this next patch to drop it has a band aid fix in this regard.
p.s. Duck.. please refrain from personal insults/attacks and observe the forum guidelines. Thank you.