<!--quoteo(post=1929207:date=Apr 24 2012, 08:30 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 24 2012, 08:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh please... than read what I have written <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117994&view=findpost&p=1928735" target="_blank">on page one</a> and here:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said, RFK is not needed in the game.
I believe pres issues can be easily addressed and this is a good discussion for it. It seems pres is here to stay and yes tweaking a two variable model is more difficult than a one variable model (ns1) so this is what beta is for.
Another thing to consider is tweaking down the starting pres for both sides as another tool to increase the time early tech is effective ie: early res spent has more impact for a longer period of time and consequently pres choices made by grunts, com, kham and skulk have consequences. Kind of see this as low hanging fruit that can be tested easily.
I think the two-resource system is here to stay, but we can make it work like a single resource system.
First, energy would be dropped and replaced with a cooldown. For abilities that need to be used more than once... look at Akali in League of Legends for how to pull that off... isn't hard, just requires some art...
Then, we need a functional boundary on what takes t.res and what takes p.res:
<b>T-Res:</b> <ul><li>Structures that do not do damage.</li><li>Research</li></ul> <b>P-Res:</b> <ul><li>Structures that do damage. <ul><li>Turrets</li><li>Whips</li></ul></li><li>Personal improvements. <ul><li>Evolutions</li><li>Weapons</li></ul></li><li>Commander-controlled units <ul><li>Drifters</li><li>ARCs</li><li>MACs</li></ul></li><li>Commander Abilities <ul><li>Nano-shield</li><li>Nutrient Mist</li><li>Enzyme Spray</li><li>Beacon</li></ul></li></ul>
ARCs should be scaled up (for a number of reasons) so that a commander would build 1. Maybe set it at 40 p.res so that 2 is fairly possible, and 3 is unlikely but do-able. Obviously damage and armor should be upscaled.
Now we are talking about a simple resource model. We essentially have 1 resource: p.res. T.res is just res needed to help you secure more nodes and get more p.res, which is the kind of res that wins games. For clearer delineation, we should consider relabeling them. "Resources" and "Energy"?
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<ul><li>No penalty for alien aggression.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want the game to be intense, you do not want to give significant penalties to skulks for dying. Skulks attacking and dying is what drives the game forward.
Currently, the penalty for dying as a skulk is that you are dead and not on the field, allowing the other side to advance without you being there to oppose them. So, a skulk attacking and dying should be its own penalty.
The problem is actually that right now skulks charging down a corridor at marines are too fast and hard to hit, allowing them to close in and kill a marine or two before dying, thus making it a strategic win for them to attack recklessly.
The solution is not to penalize the skulks for dying, but to have them die more easily. The major problem is client performance in combination with high speed and manuverability makes skulks hard to track for most people, even skilled shooters.
There was actually a patch 19x something where marines dominated skulks, where even I got > 1:1 ratios against them. It was surprisingly balanced, win/loss wise. Since then, walljumping and aircontrol was added, making skulks faster and impossible to predict, allowing good skulks to dominate marines.
While this feels good as an alien, it doesn't really work on a strategic scale - marines are supposed to have an edge against skulks in the early game to compensate for the higher alien mobility.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There was actually a patch 19x something where marines dominated skulks, where even I got > 1:1 ratios against them. It was surprisingly balanced, win/loss wise. Since then, walljumping and aircontrol was added, making skulks faster and impossible to predict, allowing good skulks to dominate marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I remember this was the build with the armor mistake, skulk were dying super fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1928853:date=Apr 23 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Freemantle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Freemantle @ Apr 23 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Proposed solution: <ol type='1'><li>Eliminate augmentation as a hive ability.</li><li>Create a "mutation" bar for each life form that fills slowly over time. </li><li>Dying or changing life form resets this bar to 0. </li><li>When the bar is full, the alien player hears "new trait available" and has their next tier of attacks unlocked. <b>They must spend p.res to evolve them.</b></li><li>2nd and 3rd hives unlock abilities as they used to.</li><li>You may want to allow aliens to fill the bar quicker as the result of a kill, or as the result of standing in an alien commander's nutrient mist.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now this, I like. Why haven't I seen this idea going around more?
<!--quoteo(post=1929416:date=Apr 24 2012, 04:47 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 24 2012, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it sounds like ns_combat tbh :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So does the current massive lifeform gang bang, tbh. :/
If UWE aren't going to implement tactical depth in who goes what lifeform and when, the least they could do is stick to the shallow tactical systems that proved robust enough to eat a major chunk of NS1's player base. If they are however planning to do so, then they'll need to keep trying new things; the current system isn't exactly cavernous in its depth.
LOTS of great suggestions in this thread, I hope UWE is reading!
A big problem with aliens is the costs were kept the same from NS1, without the res sink of the gorges. Having so many players getting to lerk within the first 2 minutes while marines have LMGs and no upgrades isn't really fair. Perhaps lower the starting Pres of everyone to help this out to 15 or so.
Right now, with the lerk bilebomb issues, augmentation coming out so quickly is a real problem. I like the ideas of researching augmentation separately for each lifeform, or just making it more expensive.
As marine commander, there are so many difficult choices to make as to how to spend your res, especially early. Quick upgrades? Phase gates and a forward base with turrets? ARC rush? GL rush? There's lots of options, all of which are viable, which makes the gameplay very interesting on the marine side.
On the alien side, it feels very static. Mist the hive until augmentation is complete. Build a few RTs. Build the 2nd hive when you can hold it. Get an upgrade chamber. The difficult and diverse choices are really missing from the alien comm.
I will say, though, my favorite change with 205 is making cysts cost Tres. Now expansion is a serious drain on the alien economy, and the commander has to decide whether he wants to dedicate the team's resources to aggressive and risky expansion, or going for a quick upgrade chamber. This was a step in the right direction in offering more choices to the Khamm like I mentioned earlier. The more expensive things there are to buy (like unlocking lifeforms mentioned earlier in this thread - similar to unlocking weapons on the marines who then spend Pres on them) then the more interesting the gameplay will be.
<!--quoteo(post=1929419:date=Apr 24 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 24 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So does the current massive lifeform gang bang, tbh. :/
If UWE aren't going to implement tactical depth in who goes what lifeform and when, the least they could do is stick to the shallow tactical systems that proved robust enough to eat a major chunk of NS1's player base. If they are however planning to do so, then they'll need to keep trying new things; the current system isn't exactly cavernous in its depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might come bit chaotic but I'm commenting on few posts above:
<!--quoteo(post=1929353:date=Apr 24 2012, 02:50 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Apr 24 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want the game to be intense, you do not want to give significant penalties to skulks for dying. Skulks attacking and dying is what drives the game forward.
The problem is actually that right now skulks charging down a corridor at marines are too fast and hard to hit, allowing them to close in and kill a marine or two before dying, thus making it a strategic win for them to attack recklessly.
The solution is not to penalize the skulks for dying, but to have them die more easily. The major problem is client performance in combination with high speed and manuverability makes skulks hard to track for most people, even skilled shooters.
While this feels good as an alien, it doesn't really work on a strategic scale - marines are supposed to have an edge against skulks in the early game to compensate for the higher alien mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is the delay and some hitreg issues. When I shoot a skulk in ns1 it almost died instantly when I got 10 shots into it, in ns2 I need to wait like a half a sec even on a low ping server making me waste a lot of bullets. Also there are definitely some issues with hit detection, sometimes it feels like the bullets you are shooting just vanish. If the alien is strafing a lot + with some speed they seem to soak up much more bullets. I know its harder to hit these targets but I have had plenty of moments where I know I hit at least 20 bullets but the skulk was still alive. When these issues get fixed you will see skulks start dropping like flies and you will finally see aliens need to play their A game. There is also the note about sound spotting in ns2, its near impossible making it much harder for marines to attack. But I know that this issue is being worked on and I can't wait to try it out when its fixed. ** The commander should either only use tres + energy or tres+pres. The problem with using pres is it allows others players to go into the commander chair and use their pres to use the abilities that cost pres. For example, instead of buying 2 shotguns with the 40pres you have saved up you could switch with the current commander and drop 40 medpacks. ** About lifeforms, people need to realize that marines have much more weapons on the field just as the aliens got more lifeforms. When the hitreg is fixed and performance gets better marines will be able to fight equally with the adv lifeforms. Having freedom actually gives teams many possible ways to open up with the game. Strong early game with lerk and gorges, strong mid game with fades or risk it all with an onos?. We will see this balance issues fixed when the game gets closer to release. Lowering starting pres actually hurts marines more than aliens and I doubt the current pres flow need a change. I'm sure the fade blink will be adjusted and hopefully they will find a solution for lerk bilebomb. ** There is currently a problem with the marine play, marines always need upgrades to be able to fight the aliens but in ns2 you can't go for anything else if you go upgrades. In ns1 you always went upgrades with phase tech + adv armory and whatever and strived to get the tech with the upgrades. In ns2 the adv armory tech is rather weak(except gl's but they are expensive) so there is no reason to go there. Its better to stay on low tech and get upgrades. But this is a topic for another thread(hmm, maybe I should make one). ** The alien commander definitely need some work, it mainly needs more res sync. I think augmentation should cost 50tres but keep the 5-6 min timer. After you get augmented hive you can evolve leap, bilebomb and other upgrades. You always need to keep 1 augmented hive to be able to use these abilities. Now to gain 3rd hive abilities you would need 2 augmented hives, then you could evolve these abilities but you have to keep 2 augmented hives alive to be able to use them. I think this could be a nice mix of ns1 and ns2 mechanics. Also alien tech needs to be cheeper, aliens should spend max 30tres to get early upgrades up so its viable (2 rts with gorge support). It will make early chambers more interesting, especially if the infestation would gain abilities from the hive choices(Like shade hive = see marines on infestation). I do worry a bit though that the early game will be to much of rt wars, marines will only be attacking rts but no tech points.
Edit: I still support to lower the amount of weapons and lifeforms on the field to make them more important. But I have yet to find a very good way to do it with the current res system. However as the game develop I could see it turn out to be fine since marine pressure will probably force aliens to use less fades to be able to fight them effectively. Also as the teams are improving I'm seeing the losses when the lifeforms die, it actually hurts the alien time quite a lot and makes it much easier for marines. Same with the aliens taking out marine weapons. The costs might have to be adjusted but that can be done closer to release.
I wish devs would get a bit more loose with their design decisions and really consider what some ppl like grissi say... its very different to observe(looking at statistics and livestreams) than really play the game.
I agree on everything grissi says, he got a vision that i feel would be good for improving ns2 gameplay.
Comments
(absorbed back to the Hive.)
Like I said, RFK is not needed in the game.
Another thing to consider is tweaking down the starting pres for both sides as another tool to increase the time early tech is effective ie: early res spent has more impact for a longer period of time and consequently pres choices made by grunts, com, kham and skulk have consequences. Kind of see this as low hanging fruit that can be tested easily.
First, energy would be dropped and replaced with a cooldown. For abilities that need to be used more than once... look at Akali in League of Legends for how to pull that off... isn't hard, just requires some art...
Then, we need a functional boundary on what takes t.res and what takes p.res:
<b>T-Res:</b>
<ul><li>Structures that do not do damage.</li><li>Research</li></ul>
<b>P-Res:</b>
<ul><li>Structures that do damage.
<ul><li>Turrets</li><li>Whips</li></ul></li><li>Personal improvements.
<ul><li>Evolutions</li><li>Weapons</li></ul></li><li>Commander-controlled units
<ul><li>Drifters</li><li>ARCs</li><li>MACs</li></ul></li><li>Commander Abilities
<ul><li>Nano-shield</li><li>Nutrient Mist</li><li>Enzyme Spray</li><li>Beacon</li></ul></li></ul>
ARCs should be scaled up (for a number of reasons) so that a commander would build 1. Maybe set it at 40 p.res so that 2 is fairly possible, and 3 is unlikely but do-able. Obviously damage and armor should be upscaled.
Now we are talking about a simple resource model. We essentially have 1 resource: p.res. T.res is just res needed to help you secure more nodes and get more p.res, which is the kind of res that wins games. For clearer delineation, we should consider relabeling them. "Resources" and "Energy"?
<ul><li>No penalty for alien aggression.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want the game to be intense, you do not want to give significant penalties to skulks for dying. Skulks attacking and dying is what drives the game forward.
Currently, the penalty for dying as a skulk is that you are dead and not on the field, allowing the other side to advance without you being there to oppose them. So, a skulk attacking and dying should be its own penalty.
The problem is actually that right now skulks charging down a corridor at marines are too fast and hard to hit, allowing them to close in and kill a marine or two before dying, thus making it a strategic win for them to attack recklessly.
The solution is not to penalize the skulks for dying, but to have them die more easily. The major problem is client performance in combination with high speed and manuverability makes skulks hard to track for most people, even skilled shooters.
There was actually a patch 19x something where marines dominated skulks, where even I got > 1:1 ratios against them. It was surprisingly balanced, win/loss wise. Since then, walljumping and aircontrol was added, making skulks faster and impossible to predict, allowing good skulks to dominate marines.
While this feels good as an alien, it doesn't really work on a strategic scale - marines are supposed to have an edge against skulks in the early game to compensate for the higher alien mobility.
As I remember this was the build with the armor mistake, skulk were dying super fast.
<ol type='1'><li>Eliminate augmentation as a hive ability.</li><li>Create a "mutation" bar for each life form that fills slowly over time. </li><li>Dying or changing life form resets this bar to 0. </li><li>When the bar is full, the alien player hears "new trait available" and has their next tier of attacks unlocked. <b>They must spend p.res to evolve them.</b></li><li>2nd and 3rd hives unlock abilities as they used to.</li><li>You may want to allow aliens to fill the bar quicker as the result of a kill, or as the result of standing in an alien commander's nutrient mist.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now this, I like. Why haven't I seen this idea going around more?
So does the current massive lifeform gang bang, tbh. :/
If UWE aren't going to implement tactical depth in who goes what lifeform and when, the least they could do is stick to the shallow tactical systems that proved robust enough to eat a major chunk of NS1's player base. If they are however planning to do so, then they'll need to keep trying new things; the current system isn't exactly cavernous in its depth.
A big problem with aliens is the costs were kept the same from NS1, without the res sink of the gorges. Having so many players getting to lerk within the first 2 minutes while marines have LMGs and no upgrades isn't really fair. Perhaps lower the starting Pres of everyone to help this out to 15 or so.
Right now, with the lerk bilebomb issues, augmentation coming out so quickly is a real problem. I like the ideas of researching augmentation separately for each lifeform, or just making it more expensive.
As marine commander, there are so many difficult choices to make as to how to spend your res, especially early. Quick upgrades? Phase gates and a forward base with turrets? ARC rush? GL rush? There's lots of options, all of which are viable, which makes the gameplay very interesting on the marine side.
On the alien side, it feels very static. Mist the hive until augmentation is complete. Build a few RTs. Build the 2nd hive when you can hold it. Get an upgrade chamber. The difficult and diverse choices are really missing from the alien comm.
I will say, though, my favorite change with 205 is making cysts cost Tres. Now expansion is a serious drain on the alien economy, and the commander has to decide whether he wants to dedicate the team's resources to aggressive and risky expansion, or going for a quick upgrade chamber. This was a step in the right direction in offering more choices to the Khamm like I mentioned earlier. The more expensive things there are to buy (like unlocking lifeforms mentioned earlier in this thread - similar to unlocking weapons on the marines who then spend Pres on them) then the more interesting the gameplay will be.
If UWE aren't going to implement tactical depth in who goes what lifeform and when, the least they could do is stick to the shallow tactical systems that proved robust enough to eat a major chunk of NS1's player base. If they are however planning to do so, then they'll need to keep trying new things; the current system isn't exactly cavernous in its depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly this.
<!--quoteo(post=1929353:date=Apr 24 2012, 02:50 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Apr 24 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want the game to be intense, you do not want to give significant penalties to skulks for dying. Skulks attacking and dying is what drives the game forward.
The problem is actually that right now skulks charging down a corridor at marines are too fast and hard to hit, allowing them to close in and kill a marine or two before dying, thus making it a strategic win for them to attack recklessly.
The solution is not to penalize the skulks for dying, but to have them die more easily. The major problem is client performance in combination with high speed and manuverability makes skulks hard to track for most people, even skilled shooters.
While this feels good as an alien, it doesn't really work on a strategic scale - marines are supposed to have an edge against skulks in the early game to compensate for the higher alien mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the delay and some hitreg issues. When I shoot a skulk in ns1 it almost died instantly when I got 10 shots into it, in ns2 I need to wait like a half a sec even on a low ping server making me waste a lot of bullets. Also there are definitely some issues with hit detection, sometimes it feels like the bullets you are shooting just vanish. If the alien is strafing a lot + with some speed they seem to soak up much more bullets. I know its harder to hit these targets but I have had plenty of moments where I know I hit at least 20 bullets but the skulk was still alive. When these issues get fixed you will see skulks start dropping like flies and you will finally see aliens need to play their A game.
There is also the note about sound spotting in ns2, its near impossible making it much harder for marines to attack. But I know that this issue is being worked on and I can't wait to try it out when its fixed.
**
The commander should either only use tres + energy or tres+pres. The problem with using pres is it allows others players to go into the commander chair and use their pres to use the abilities that cost pres. For example, instead of buying 2 shotguns with the 40pres you have saved up you could switch with the current commander and drop 40 medpacks.
**
About lifeforms, people need to realize that marines have much more weapons on the field just as the aliens got more lifeforms. When the hitreg is fixed and performance gets better marines will be able to fight equally with the adv lifeforms. Having freedom actually gives teams many possible ways to open up with the game. Strong early game with lerk and gorges, strong mid game with fades or risk it all with an onos?. We will see this balance issues fixed when the game gets closer to release. Lowering starting pres actually hurts marines more than aliens and I doubt the current pres flow need a change. I'm sure the fade blink will be adjusted and hopefully they will find a solution for lerk bilebomb.
**
There is currently a problem with the marine play, marines always need upgrades to be able to fight the aliens but in ns2 you can't go for anything else if you go upgrades. In ns1 you always went upgrades with phase tech + adv armory and whatever and strived to get the tech with the upgrades. In ns2 the adv armory tech is rather weak(except gl's but they are expensive) so there is no reason to go there. Its better to stay on low tech and get upgrades. But this is a topic for another thread(hmm, maybe I should make one).
**
The alien commander definitely need some work, it mainly needs more res sync. I think augmentation should cost 50tres but keep the 5-6 min timer. After you get augmented hive you can evolve leap, bilebomb and other upgrades. You always need to keep 1 augmented hive to be able to use these abilities. Now to gain 3rd hive abilities you would need 2 augmented hives, then you could evolve these abilities but you have to keep 2 augmented hives alive to be able to use them. I think this could be a nice mix of ns1 and ns2 mechanics.
Also alien tech needs to be cheeper, aliens should spend max 30tres to get early upgrades up so its viable (2 rts with gorge support). It will make early chambers more interesting, especially if the infestation would gain abilities from the hive choices(Like shade hive = see marines on infestation).
I do worry a bit though that the early game will be to much of rt wars, marines will only be attacking rts but no tech points.
Edit:
I still support to lower the amount of weapons and lifeforms on the field to make them more important. But I have yet to find a very good way to do it with the current res system. However as the game develop I could see it turn out to be fine since marine pressure will probably force aliens to use less fades to be able to fight them effectively. Also as the teams are improving I'm seeing the losses when the lifeforms die, it actually hurts the alien time quite a lot and makes it much easier for marines. Same with the aliens taking out marine weapons.
The costs might have to be adjusted but that can be done closer to release.
I agree on everything grissi says, he got a vision that i feel would be good for improving ns2 gameplay.