I think it will be released, not that it will be perfect. NS 1.0 had a lot of issues that got ironed out down the line, and there's nothing that says that UWE can't continue to develop NS2 after its release.
The dev team have stated many times that they wouldn't have set a Summer release date if they didn't think they could make it.
<!--quoteo(post=1930178:date=Apr 26 2012, 03:12 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 26 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disclaimer: I haven't played the patch yet.
I personally like the idea of free structures(needless to say they should require you to stay Gorge though). However, I think the alien economy has a very serious problem: there's literally no way to spend resources now except for going Lerk/Fade/Onos. In NS1, you could choose to play full time Gorge, or full time Skulk by temp-gorging. Now if you do that you are going to accrue a huge bank of resources and your team will yell at you. Resource surpluses or starvation have no impact on you at all, so you're hardly even tied into the RTS element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well... the problem isn't so much that you have too much res, since if you max out it'll just overflow to the rest of the team anyway. The reason people get mad at gorges (do they? haven't seen it myself) is that there's no reason to be a gorge when you could be an onos instead.
It's obvious that all of these problems stem from adding the alien commander. The gorge doesn't have a well defined role, many of the alien structures seem to have been added just to give the commander something to do, and the whole idea of infestation vs power node just limits the amount of strategies and individual gameplay
So I see FPS stuttering still haven't been fixed. Pity really, <190s it was unplayable because of FPS dropping down to 1-5 in combat, then fixed at 200ish - and broken again at 203 or so. :s
Oh and 206 is worse than 205 in that regard. In 205 it'd occasionally drop down to 10ish from normal 40-60, but now soon as anyone shoots at me or I have to shoot at something FPS is down to 5. (Hint, makes playing only a little frustrating)
As for the changes.. I'm not sure if I like them, even though before I'd pretty much rage quit after one marine with gl destroys 100+ res worth of hydras&cysts or the derptanks roll over the defences without even slowing down. Now it feels too limiting to have free buildings with cap. I'd rather have buildings with res costs, maybe start cheaper than they were before and add +1 res per x number of building on map to limit the buildings. Not that it'd really matter when derptanks blow everything up in seconds.
And minicysts really should turn into normal cysts once they mature so you won't accidently cut a chain when moving them.
Clogs seems interesting, yet I assume they'll die just as fast with gl/arc as anything else, which makes them only speed bump for marine charge. Ability to melt&jam doors with them would be interesting though, so while marines can (in some maps?) close corridors with welder, aliens could just jam the door mechanism with a clog in the cogs and it'd be removable only by welding the door open or shooting the clog from inside. Although for that it should either require plenty of the limit or lower the cap. It'd actually be interesting if marines could really damage the clogs only with welders..
<!--quoteo(post=1930162:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:48 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow just wow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1930166:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:54 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 26 2012, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[issue] bashing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1930189:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:29 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Apr 26 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great job, are you stupid? ... unplayable retarded spam fest...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look at this rote, hackneyed nonsense that just comes out of your fingers and onto the webpage. Do you even think about what you write or how to construct arguments? What about how to treat other human beings in a discussion about ANYTHING, let alone something as mild as a video game based on a premise that has its roots in decades of Science Fiction? This isn't some hot, controversial social issue.
Listen, this game is not your property; you are not fiscally invested in it. Your purchase is a guarantee for continued access to the beta and a copy of the final product. If you want the developers of any game to listen to you--if you want ANYONE to listen to you--it's best to construct your argument civilly and without a lot of anger. This is especially true given that the developers of this game do, in fact, listen to the players of their games. This has been proven many times. You are precluding effective discussion with your out-of-place, childish behaviour. This has got to stop, and it really doesn't matter who says it. This place cannot be one in which it is normal to hurl invective senselessly. You will simply not accomplish what you desire.
<!--quoteo(post=1930178:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 26 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930178"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally like the idea of free structures(needless to say they should require you to stay Gorge though).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's a pretty sizeable problem if you're forced to stay alive as a gorge. You can't be active yourself if the buildings are your main value and require you to stay alive. It's kind of like playing a human turret factory at that point.
Hey UWE devs, I'm not sure about the paths things are taking...
* I thought Lerk were supposed to be a support unit that could initiate encounters, but they are getting very offensive. * Gorges don't use any pres so they manage the map until they go onos/fade, leaving built hydras ans cysts * Games are getting always the same, there ins't too much space for new strategies
I'm not saying that the game is ######, on contraire, this is an awesome game and I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't. It's known that you guys have TONs of work to do and with a very tight schedule. A great share of the community recognizes it.
<!--quoteo(post=1930198:date=Apr 26 2012, 04:52 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ Apr 26 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at this rote, hackneyed nonsense that just comes out of your fingers and onto the webpage. Do you even think about what you write or how to construct arguments? What about how to treat other human beings in a discussion about ANYTHING, let alone something as mild as a video game based on a premise that has its roots in decades of Science Fiction? This isn't some hot, controversial social issue.
Listen, this game is not your property; you are not fiscally invested in it. Your purchase is a guarantee for continued access to the beta and a copy of the final product. If you want the developers of any game to listen to you--if you want ANYONE to listen to you--it's best to construct your argument civilly and without a lot of anger. This is especially true given that the developers of this game do, in fact, listen to the players of their games. This has been proven many times. You are precluding effective discussion with your out-of-place, childish behaviour. This has got to stop, and it really doesn't matter who says it. This place cannot be one in which it is normal to hurl invective senselessly. You will simply not accomplish what you desire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are absolutely right, no doubt.
But I have been this road more than once I have followed the game for years I rage, I try to reason, I rage... and now I'm in a point where I no longer have the energy to construct and explain my reasoning only to have it ignored, twisted or quickly forgotten few posts forward.
I still care, I want this game to be a long time thing for me but no matter ugly or cruel my opinion is to the devs, I still want to express it theres no going soft in this matter.
<!--quoteo(post=1930198:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:52 AM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ Apr 26 2012, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at this rote, hackneyed nonsense that just comes out of your fingers and onto the webpage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think most of these guys are good if not expert players with strong ideas of how it should work. Some of the UWE ideas are [allcaps]major[/allcaps] changes that may have been considered internally for some time, but seem out of left field & aren't directly addressing the current game play issues (or maybe even making them worse).
I'd just again like to remind them that: UWE does make changes rapidly. If they don't work they go in a different direction. The other point is the core gameplay needs to be consistent with the designers overall vision for the game. Dont keep harping on an idea that wont/will never fit. Come up with a better solution. Even UWE does things that arent consistent with the vision. We do need to keep pointing that out. But perhaps a bit more calmly.
i love this link from ironhorse: <a href="http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/" target="_blank">http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1929963:date=Apr 25 2012, 10:15 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Apr 25 2012, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just played a few games, and I have to add it's still incredibly easy for the Alien team to all go fade at once and murder the marine team. We could have all just as easily gone onos at that point.
Love that the gorges can play around with structure placement now! They don't seem overpowered at all, since the marines could nade EVERYTHING down very easily. Arcs would still clear everything out as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No sh*t that has been the most difficoult problem on the overall game desingning since the new res system was introduced.
Gorge is terribad right now. So you just camp whit your 10res help thge team and build free structures?? and then just hop in maybe min or two late when the fade/onos raping starts. I do not see this working in ANYWAY.
<!--quoteo(post=1930207:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:09 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Apr 26 2012, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I have been this road more than once I have followed the game for years I rage, I try to reason, I rage... and now I'm in a point where I no longer have the energy to construct and explain my reasoning only to have it ignored, twisted or quickly forgotten few posts forward.
I still care, I want this game to be a long time thing for me but no matter ugly or cruel my opinion is to the devs, I still want to express it theres no going soft in this matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are almost a dozen posts in this thread that contain nothing but unflattering pedantic garbage and childish banter...and the fact that they come from people with 200+ forum posts is an embarrassment to the community.
Everyone needs to just <b>chill out</b> and partake in some constructive criticism of the game without resorting to ridiculous swearing, insults, and acting like it's the end of the damn world. It's great that we're having a 7+ page discussion about game balance, design, and improvements...but seriously, can we please tone it down a bit and be civil?
And one more thing, while I'm logged in here, that needs to be said:
Your opinion, not matter how glorified, well-constructed, or loudly expressed, it still just <b>your</b> opinion. It is by no means the "end all" of video game development advice. If UWE doesn't radically change the entire game based on your analysis, how about taking a step back and realizing that you're simply one member of a very large community filled with many different people with many different opinions...all carrying the same weight as yours. And again, please, chill out people.
<!--quoteo(post=1930193:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:39 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 26 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well... the problem isn't so much that you have too much res, since if you max out it'll just overflow to the rest of the team anyway. The reason people get mad at gorges (do they? haven't seen it myself) is that there's no reason to be a gorge when you could be an onos instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having 100 res sitting around doing nothing is a huge problem. If we want res-sharing to be the solution you should be able to do it at any time.
Kudos for that build my beloved devs! it realy got that game close to perfection!
i nearly dont know where to start.... buildings growing naturally on investation(so simple and nice), hydras are finaly something you cant ignore as marine!(altough they are maybe a little to good atm), clogs are a great addition, i´ve seen many gorge forward bases that use clogs and hydras in a realy nice symbiosis.
as i play mainly marines its nice to see an arc every now and then in midgame to get rid of the gorgefortress, i allways found it stupid, that arcs only appear to end a game in form of arctrain, now they have purpose in midgame too! great!
invested areas have a whole new look, there are hydras, whips, clogs, crags, shades and so on! not only empty hallways with green spots at the floor!
i agree there are some finetunings necessary: how much can a gorge build, how long do his buildings stay alive after death(next patch), spawnwave timer for aliens seems too long, 15sec. should be ok, khamm built structures: maybe start with less health after drop,
and so on. but generally i see this patch as a beacon lighting the way into a gloryous future! thnx to all the devs, you continue to read my mind ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1930220:date=Apr 26 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 26 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having 100 res sitting around doing nothing is a huge problem. If we want res-sharing to be the solution you should be able to do it at any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I get that it's unused potential, but if you don't have anything other than lifeforms that cost pres... then there's no way you can contribute more with the res you've got beyond playing the lifeform you're most effective as.
when you finished building something, the welder blueprint animation still stays a few seconds <img src="http://i.imgur.com/gd1ND.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Honestly whats with all of the nerd rage, omg competition is ruined etc. This game is under development and this is part of the development process, you aren't playing a released game, you're testing a game in its alpha form.
The devs can't create a better game without continuous iterations of different ideas. Be productive with your feedback like most of you have done in the past and some parts of this thread are. It's natural to dislike any changes you were happy with but its part of the development process.
<!--quoteo(post=1930191:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:33 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 26 2012, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it will be released, not that it will be perfect. NS 1.0 had a lot of issues that got ironed out down the line, and there's nothing that says that UWE can't continue to develop NS2 after its release.
The dev team have stated many times that they wouldn't have set a Summer release date if they didn't think they could make it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they fix performance, making the game actually playable. All these gameplay gimmicks and bad ideas can be ironed out later. BUT without a stable engine, its just adds such huge problem to the bad gameplay, this sort of mix questions summer release. But hey, I would love to be wrong, and I hope i'm.
not counting this month, we have a full 4 months left till September.
<!--quoteo(post=1930056:date=Apr 26 2012, 06:58 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Apr 26 2012, 06:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People play fade 1 time, then nobody goes fade. Why? He die to fast and is weak, as marine i like it, but as aliens its not anyfun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I notice this as well, and I have a feeling it has to do with blink, stab, [no meta] and the lack of mobility with both when compared to the NS1 Fade. It's simply not fun to be constrained like the Fade is now.
Also I don't see why so many people are complaining about Gorges now. It's like they've never played them; of course no one played Gorge before this build. Hydras and mini-cysts were never worth spending pres on; the Hydra especially so since it has poor tracking and damage.
My only complaint is the current implementation of the mini-cyst. It should take a few minutes to mature and then become a <b><u>permanent</b></u> mini-cyst (or even full grown cyst). Like others have mentioned it's extremely annoying when a mini-cyst that was part of the cyst chain suddenly disappears.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1930242:date=Apr 26 2012, 05:52 PM:name=SpaPal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaPal @ Apr 26 2012, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly whats with all of the nerd rage, omg competition is ruined etc. This game is under development and this is part of the development process, you aren't playing a released game, you're testing a game in its alpha form.
The devs can't create a better game without continuous iterations of different ideas. Be productive with your feedback like most of you have done in the past and some parts of this thread are. It's natural to dislike any changes you were happy with but its part of the development process.
.02<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is not the development process but how the end product is going to be like.
I have no problems with occasional bugs that make the game unplayable, instability, bad performance, bad balance or incomplete features. It's all natural part of product development and beta. But it's sad to see the developer throwing in features that only break the game. This wouldn't be a problem if it is apparent that these features can make the game better in the long run with more thought, development and tuning. But it's quite hard to see many of the new features doing any good for the game. Of course developers need to test crazy ideas to find the good ones from the bad ones. But it is starting to look like all the good features are being scrapped and lots of new boring and problematic features are being added every build.
I also have absolutely no problem with the fact that the game changes. I love the fact that teams need to test their strategies, build orders and tactics after each build to be successful. Actually I find it quite boring to play a game which doesn't change anymore and you only need to adapt to the metagame changes that happen when the game and the community surrounding gets older.
On a standard PC (3core@2,9Ghz, GTX460) I get <15 FPS in combat on a 800*600 resolution. That it not just slow, but absolutely unaccepteable. This has to and should have been the #1 priority for years now. No one will be able to play that game if it's even remotely like this. Fall back to Minecraft or NS1 level graphics, no one cares about graphics anyways. Or screw the LUA and hardcore it in C code. Whatever, but this needs to be adressed in a drastic way! This issue is vastly underadressed in the feedback on this forums.
That being said, while there are some good ideas (infestation) in it, some design decisions are questionable. NS1 was very close to a perfect game, so maybe it's worth thinking about using more of its mechanics. Especially: - get rid of the alien com! The NS1 gorge felt natural and worked perfectly - static defenses suck. They're unfun, annoying, inefficient, and slow down the game. Mines and webs are OK as passive defense, but hydras are super annoying - building spam was annoying in NS1 already, so maybe free buildings might not be the best way
And again: The performance issues are #1 Problem by a huge margin
Wow, lots of rage here today. Everyone just calm down - it's going to be all right.
- We've stated about 1000000 times that performance is our number one priority. Max and Dushan are busting their butts in that department. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/4/on_ns2_performance" target="_blank">See this</a>. - We've also made it very clear from day one that this is an open beta. We release our current build to you every week. Those builds are definition not perfect. If we are going to continue making strides forward, we have to be allowed to fail. Two steps forward, 1 step back. This is a healthy state of affairs.
Of course we need more tuning, and we will do so. But making personal attacks and being outright nasty helps no one.
<!--quoteo(post=1930233:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:46 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Apr 26 2012, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get that it's unused potential, but if you don't have anything other than lifeforms that cost pres... then there's no way you can contribute more with the res you've got beyond playing the lifeform you're most effective as.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, which is the problem. NS1 had res dumps like building a hive, spamming OCs, whatever. In NS2 if you're rich your only option is to go Onos, which maybe you don't want to do or maybe your team has enough of. Whatever it is, there absolutely needs to be a way for lower lifeforms to invest their money. Marines don't have this issue because they all want to buy the best equipment every life.
<!--quoteo(post=1930254:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:14 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Apr 26 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is not the development process but how the end product is going to be like.
I have no problems with occasional bugs that make the game unplayable, instability, bad performance, bad balance or incomplete features. It's all natural part of product development and beta. But it's sad to see the developer throwing in features that only break the game. This wouldn't be a problem if it is apparent that these features can make the game better in the long run with more thought, development and tuning. But it's quite hard to see many of the new features doing any good for the game. Of course developers need to test crazy ideas to find the good ones from the bad ones. But it is starting to look like all the good features are being scrapped and lots of new boring and problematic features are being added every build.
I also have absolutely no problem with the fact that the game changes. I love the fact that teams need to test their strategies, build orders and tactics after each build to be successful. Actually I find it quite boring to play a game which doesn't change anymore and you only need to adapt to the metagame changes that happen when the game and the community surrounding gets older.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely understand where your coming from Zeikko and I always appreciate your well thought out responses on the threads. We all pre-ordered so we could support UWE and be part of the open alpha/beta process. Lets make this dialogue as productive as possible for the devs and not end up being a total sh1t storm like a lot of other games that just bend to the communities minority post-release, not everything is a binary outcome.
I just wanted to point out that the testing and development format that UWE is using is non-traditional and a lot of other indie developers are definitely keeping tabs on how NS2 turns out and how the development process is working out from a strategic development choice perspective so how this community responds to changes does matter.
Indie devs are asking is the net return on useful feedback from public testing more productive development hour wise compared to salaried professional game testers and ideally I would hope so.
I would love to see more games developed this way with real community feedback instead of just getting trailers every quarter and getting a black boxed game at the end with a take it or leave it statement. Honestly, 90% of the feedback provided on the internet is useless but lets keep quality feedback as high as possible so in the future more devs will consider an open alpha.
If another dev calls up Flayra asking about the open format alpha you don't want to answer to be, "never again."
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Had some fun playing Onos today, disrupting phasegates so aliens could gnaw on it without any troubles. Also managing to evolve into an onos right in front of a shotgunner.
That'll teach you to ignore the last egg in a room, xVisions. :P
And you won't give your players any enjoyment with them. Keep the work up and think of something new though, just something proactive and not reactive is needed adding.
EDIT: Also just realised on that post, greedo's text on the left side of the chambers. Epic quote.
Clog is useless: I thought clog would be a reimagining of the gorge-web ability. Instead its far too much like minecraft. On a related note, gameplaywise: Clogs are an augmented ability so they should be available at around 6-7 minutes. You know what else is available at around 6-7 minutes? grenade launchers.
Don't get me wrong, clog is fun but it contributes nothing to competitive play.
Wave spawning is neat, could use some tweaking but its a very nice first implementation. Onos Gore/Smash is a great idea
PLEASE do something about ARCs. As it stands now, Marines can only seem to win in the late game with ARC trains. ARCs are still a little imba but my bigger concern is that its the only viable late game strategy.
PLEASE fix resource model. Gorges have 100 Pres, all the time the commander does too. Gorges need structures to cost Pres. As is it now, all aliens can spawn, go gorge, spam hydras and then go skulk again. Even if the Pres cost is 2-5 for hydras, cysts and clogs.
Cysts spread too fast and harvesters die before any teammates are able to rescue them. Even still, Pres is abundant.
Drifters are useless now, please increase their Tres cost or make them cost Pres or Energy.
As much as I like the idea of Lerk being able to bilebomb. Its still too imba, even with the reduced movement speed. Please fix the lerk hitbox or move bilebomb to gorge.
_________________
In-game example: Last game I played, within 3 minutes I had 4 res nodes. Within 7 minutes, i had augmentation, 2nd hive and 6-7 res nodes. within 10 minutes I had 4 hives. Every alien on my team had 100 res. Server was lagging from all the cysts, clogs, hydras and ARCs.
Another game played: Marines won because aliens couldn't hold resnodes. As soon as a marine starts to attack a res node its pretty much good as dead. I must've redropped at least 20 res nodes, only to have them killed by solo marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1930270:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:42 AM:name=ixnay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ixnay @ Apr 26 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you learned in NS a lot of things you forgotten that were bad and put them in NS2... like this,
And you won't give your players any enjoyment with them. Keep the work up and think of something new though, just something proactive and not reactive is needed adding.
EDIT: Also just realised on that post, greedo's text on the left side of the chambers. Epic quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be pointed out that unlike NS1 the grenade launcher is a lot more prominent (due to a number of reasons ranging from PRes to the fact that it is an attachment and everyone in your squad can use one with pretty much no downside) and the ARC is a mobile siege cannon. You can roll one in and take it all out then roll out. In NS1 you had to build that cannon right there and then had to recycle it. Taking out walls of lame is a whole lot less tedious in NS2.
Comments
The dev team have stated many times that they wouldn't have set a Summer release date if they didn't think they could make it.
I personally like the idea of free structures(needless to say they should require you to stay Gorge though). However, I think the alien economy has a very serious problem: there's literally no way to spend resources now except for going Lerk/Fade/Onos. In NS1, you could choose to play full time Gorge, or full time Skulk by temp-gorging. Now if you do that you are going to accrue a huge bank of resources and your team will yell at you. Resource surpluses or starvation have no impact on you at all, so you're hardly even tied into the RTS element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... the problem isn't so much that you have too much res, since if you max out it'll just overflow to the rest of the team anyway. The reason people get mad at gorges (do they? haven't seen it myself) is that there's no reason to be a gorge when you could be an onos instead.
Oh and 206 is worse than 205 in that regard. In 205 it'd occasionally drop down to 10ish from normal 40-60, but now soon as anyone shoots at me or I have to shoot at something FPS is down to 5. (Hint, makes playing only a little frustrating)
As for the changes.. I'm not sure if I like them, even though before I'd pretty much rage quit after one marine with gl destroys 100+ res worth of hydras&cysts or the derptanks roll over the defences without even slowing down. Now it feels too limiting to have free buildings with cap. I'd rather have buildings with res costs, maybe start cheaper than they were before and add +1 res per x number of building on map to limit the buildings. Not that it'd really matter when derptanks blow everything up in seconds.
And minicysts really should turn into normal cysts once they mature so you won't accidently cut a chain when moving them.
Clogs seems interesting, yet I assume they'll die just as fast with gl/arc as anything else, which makes them only speed bump for marine charge. Ability to melt&jam doors with them would be interesting though, so while marines can (in some maps?) close corridors with welder, aliens could just jam the door mechanism with a clog in the cogs and it'd be removable only by welding the door open or shooting the clog from inside. Although for that it should either require plenty of the limit or lower the cap. It'd actually be interesting if marines could really damage the clogs only with welders..
<!--quoteo(post=1930166:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:54 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 26 2012, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930166"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[issue] bashing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1930189:date=Apr 26 2012, 10:29 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Apr 26 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great job, are you stupid? ... unplayable retarded spam fest...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at this rote, hackneyed nonsense that just comes out of your fingers and onto the webpage. Do you even think about what you write or how to construct arguments? What about how to treat other human beings in a discussion about ANYTHING, let alone something as mild as a video game based on a premise that has its roots in decades of Science Fiction? This isn't some hot, controversial social issue.
Listen, this game is not your property; you are not fiscally invested in it. Your purchase is a guarantee for continued access to the beta and a copy of the final product. If you want the developers of any game to listen to you--if you want ANYONE to listen to you--it's best to construct your argument civilly and without a lot of anger. This is especially true given that the developers of this game do, in fact, listen to the players of their games. This has been proven many times. You are precluding effective discussion with your out-of-place, childish behaviour. This has got to stop, and it really doesn't matter who says it. This place cannot be one in which it is normal to hurl invective senselessly. You will simply not accomplish what you desire.
I think it's a pretty sizeable problem if you're forced to stay alive as a gorge. You can't be active yourself if the buildings are your main value and require you to stay alive. It's kind of like playing a human turret factory at that point.
* I thought Lerk were supposed to be a support unit that could initiate encounters, but they are getting very offensive.
* Gorges don't use any pres so they manage the map until they go onos/fade, leaving built hydras ans cysts
* Games are getting always the same, there ins't too much space for new strategies
I'm not saying that the game is ######, on contraire, this is an awesome game and I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't. It's known that you guys have TONs of work to do and with a very tight schedule. A great share of the community recognizes it.
cheers from Brazil
Listen, this game is not your property; you are not fiscally invested in it. Your purchase is a guarantee for continued access to the beta and a copy of the final product. If you want the developers of any game to listen to you--if you want ANYONE to listen to you--it's best to construct your argument civilly and without a lot of anger. This is especially true given that the developers of this game do, in fact, listen to the players of their games. This has been proven many times. You are precluding effective discussion with your out-of-place, childish behaviour. This has got to stop, and it really doesn't matter who says it. This place cannot be one in which it is normal to hurl invective senselessly. You will simply not accomplish what you desire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are absolutely right, no doubt.
But I have been this road more than once I have followed the game for years I rage, I try to reason, I rage... and now I'm in a point where I no longer have the energy to construct and explain my reasoning only to have it ignored, twisted or quickly forgotten few posts forward.
I still care, I want this game to be a long time thing for me but no matter ugly or cruel my opinion is to the devs, I still want to express it theres no going soft in this matter.
i think most of these guys are good if not expert players with strong ideas of how it should work. Some of the UWE ideas are [allcaps]major[/allcaps] changes that may have been considered internally for some time, but seem out of left field & aren't directly addressing the current game play issues (or maybe even making them worse).
I'd just again like to remind them that: UWE does make changes rapidly. If they don't work they go in a different direction. The other point is the core gameplay needs to be consistent with the designers overall vision for the game. Dont keep harping on an idea that wont/will never fit. Come up with a better solution. Even UWE does things that arent consistent with the vision. We do need to keep pointing that out. But perhaps a bit more calmly.
i love this link from ironhorse: <a href="http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/" target="_blank">http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/</a>
Love that the gorges can play around with structure placement now! They don't seem overpowered at all, since the marines could nade EVERYTHING down very easily. Arcs would still clear everything out as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No sh*t that has been the most difficoult problem on the overall game desingning since the new res system was introduced.
Gorge is terribad right now. So you just camp whit your 10res help thge team and build free structures?? and then just hop in maybe min or two late when the fade/onos raping starts. I do not see this working in ANYWAY.
I still care, I want this game to be a long time thing for me but no matter ugly or cruel my opinion is to the devs, I still want to express it theres no going soft in this matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are almost a dozen posts in this thread that contain nothing but unflattering pedantic garbage and childish banter...and the fact that they come from people with 200+ forum posts is an embarrassment to the community.
Everyone needs to just <b>chill out</b> and partake in some constructive criticism of the game without resorting to ridiculous swearing, insults, and acting like it's the end of the damn world. It's great that we're having a 7+ page discussion about game balance, design, and improvements...but seriously, can we please tone it down a bit and be civil?
And one more thing, while I'm logged in here, that needs to be said:
Your opinion, not matter how glorified, well-constructed, or loudly expressed, it still just <b>your</b> opinion. It is by no means the "end all" of video game development advice. If UWE doesn't radically change the entire game based on your analysis, how about taking a step back and realizing that you're simply one member of a very large community filled with many different people with many different opinions...all carrying the same weight as yours. And again, please, chill out people.
Having 100 res sitting around doing nothing is a huge problem. If we want res-sharing to be the solution you should be able to do it at any time.
it realy got that game close to perfection!
i nearly dont know where to start.... buildings growing naturally on investation(so simple and nice), hydras are finaly something you cant ignore as marine!(altough they are maybe a little to good atm), clogs are a great addition, i´ve seen many gorge forward bases that use clogs and hydras in a realy nice symbiosis.
as i play mainly marines its nice to see an arc every now and then in midgame to get rid of the gorgefortress, i allways found it stupid, that arcs only appear to end a game in form of arctrain, now they have purpose in midgame too! great!
invested areas have a whole new look, there are hydras, whips, clogs, crags, shades and so on! not only empty hallways with green spots at the floor!
i agree there are some finetunings necessary: how much can a gorge build, how long do his buildings stay alive after death(next patch), spawnwave timer for aliens seems too long, 15sec. should be ok, khamm built structures: maybe start with less health after drop,
and so on.
but generally i see this patch as a beacon lighting the way into a gloryous future!
thnx to all the devs, you continue to read my mind ;)
I get that it's unused potential, but if you don't have anything other than lifeforms that cost pres... then there's no way you can contribute more with the res you've got beyond playing the lifeform you're most effective as.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/gd1ND.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The devs can't create a better game without continuous iterations of different ideas. Be productive with your feedback like most of you have done in the past and some parts of this thread are. It's natural to dislike any changes you were happy with but its part of the development process.
.02
The dev team have stated many times that they wouldn't have set a Summer release date if they didn't think they could make it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if they fix performance, making the game actually playable. All these gameplay gimmicks and bad ideas can be ironed out later. BUT without a stable engine, its just adds such huge problem to the bad gameplay, this sort of mix questions summer release. But hey, I would love to be wrong, and I hope i'm.
not counting this month, we have a full 4 months left till September.
amirite?
Why? He die to fast and is weak, as marine i like it, but as aliens its not anyfun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I notice this as well, and I have a feeling it has to do with blink, stab, [no meta] and the lack of mobility with both when compared to the NS1 Fade. It's simply not fun to be constrained like the Fade is now.
Also I don't see why so many people are complaining about Gorges now. It's like they've never played them; of course no one played Gorge before this build. Hydras and mini-cysts were never worth spending pres on; the Hydra especially so since it has poor tracking and damage.
My only complaint is the current implementation of the mini-cyst. It should take a few minutes to mature and then become a <b><u>permanent</b></u> mini-cyst (or even full grown cyst). Like others have mentioned it's extremely annoying when a mini-cyst that was part of the cyst chain suddenly disappears.
The devs can't create a better game without continuous iterations of different ideas. Be productive with your feedback like most of you have done in the past and some parts of this thread are. It's natural to dislike any changes you were happy with but its part of the development process.
.02<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is not the development process but how the end product is going to be like.
I have no problems with occasional bugs that make the game unplayable, instability, bad performance, bad balance or incomplete features. It's all natural part of product development and beta. But it's sad to see the developer throwing in features that only break the game. This wouldn't be a problem if it is apparent that these features can make the game better in the long run with more thought, development and tuning. But it's quite hard to see many of the new features doing any good for the game. Of course developers need to test crazy ideas to find the good ones from the bad ones. But it is starting to look like all the good features are being scrapped and lots of new boring and problematic features are being added every build.
I also have absolutely no problem with the fact that the game changes. I love the fact that teams need to test their strategies, build orders and tactics after each build to be successful. Actually I find it quite boring to play a game which doesn't change anymore and you only need to adapt to the metagame changes that happen when the game and the community surrounding gets older.
That being said, while there are some good ideas (infestation) in it, some design decisions are questionable. NS1 was very close to a perfect game, so maybe it's worth thinking about using more of its mechanics. Especially:
- get rid of the alien com! The NS1 gorge felt natural and worked perfectly
- static defenses suck. They're unfun, annoying, inefficient, and slow down the game. Mines and webs are OK as passive defense, but hydras are super annoying
- building spam was annoying in NS1 already, so maybe free buildings might not be the best way
And again: The performance issues are #1 Problem by a huge margin
- We've stated about 1000000 times that performance is our number one priority. Max and Dushan are busting their butts in that department. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2012/4/on_ns2_performance" target="_blank">See this</a>.
- We've also made it very clear from day one that this is an open beta. We release our current build to you every week. Those builds are definition not perfect. If we are going to continue making strides forward, we have to be allowed to fail. Two steps forward, 1 step back. This is a healthy state of affairs.
Of course we need more tuning, and we will do so. But making personal attacks and being outright nasty helps no one.
Right, which is the problem. NS1 had res dumps like building a hive, spamming OCs, whatever. In NS2 if you're rich your only option is to go Onos, which maybe you don't want to do or maybe your team has enough of. Whatever it is, there absolutely needs to be a way for lower lifeforms to invest their money. Marines don't have this issue because they all want to buy the best equipment every life.
I have no problems with occasional bugs that make the game unplayable, instability, bad performance, bad balance or incomplete features. It's all natural part of product development and beta. But it's sad to see the developer throwing in features that only break the game. This wouldn't be a problem if it is apparent that these features can make the game better in the long run with more thought, development and tuning. But it's quite hard to see many of the new features doing any good for the game. Of course developers need to test crazy ideas to find the good ones from the bad ones. But it is starting to look like all the good features are being scrapped and lots of new boring and problematic features are being added every build.
I also have absolutely no problem with the fact that the game changes. I love the fact that teams need to test their strategies, build orders and tactics after each build to be successful. Actually I find it quite boring to play a game which doesn't change anymore and you only need to adapt to the metagame changes that happen when the game and the community surrounding gets older.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely understand where your coming from Zeikko and I always appreciate your well thought out responses on the threads. We all pre-ordered so we could support UWE and be part of the open alpha/beta process. Lets make this dialogue as productive as possible for the devs and not end up being a total sh1t storm like a lot of other games that just bend to the communities minority post-release, not everything is a binary outcome.
I just wanted to point out that the testing and development format that UWE is using is non-traditional and a lot of other indie developers are definitely keeping tabs on how NS2 turns out and how the development process is working out from a strategic development choice perspective so how this community responds to changes does matter.
Indie devs are asking is the net return on useful feedback from public testing more productive development hour wise compared to salaried professional game testers and ideally I would hope so.
I would love to see more games developed this way with real community feedback instead of just getting trailers every quarter and getting a black boxed game at the end with a take it or leave it statement. Honestly, 90% of the feedback provided on the internet is useless but lets keep quality feedback as high as possible so in the future more devs will consider an open alpha.
If another dev calls up Flayra asking about the open format alpha you don't want to answer to be, "never again."
.02
That'll teach you to ignore the last egg in a room, xVisions. :P
<img src="http://www.brywright.co.uk/gallery/albums/pre1/151002ns_rc8_5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
CLOGS ARE JUST THE NEW WALL OF LAME.
And you won't give your players any enjoyment with them. Keep the work up and think of something new though, just something proactive and not reactive is needed adding.
EDIT: Also just realised on that post, greedo's text on the left side of the chambers. Epic quote.
I thought clog would be a reimagining of the gorge-web ability. Instead its far too much like minecraft.
On a related note, gameplaywise: Clogs are an augmented ability so they should be available at around 6-7 minutes. You know what else is available at around 6-7 minutes? grenade launchers.
Don't get me wrong, clog is fun but it contributes nothing to competitive play.
Wave spawning is neat, could use some tweaking but its a very nice first implementation.
Onos Gore/Smash is a great idea
PLEASE do something about ARCs.
As it stands now, Marines can only seem to win in the late game with ARC trains.
ARCs are still a little imba but my bigger concern is that its the only viable late game strategy.
PLEASE fix resource model.
Gorges have 100 Pres, all the time the commander does too.
Gorges need structures to cost Pres. As is it now, all aliens can spawn, go gorge, spam hydras and then go skulk again.
Even if the Pres cost is 2-5 for hydras, cysts and clogs.
Cysts spread too fast and harvesters die before any teammates are able to rescue them.
Even still, Pres is abundant.
Drifters are useless now, please increase their Tres cost or make them cost Pres or Energy.
As much as I like the idea of Lerk being able to bilebomb. Its still too imba, even with the reduced movement speed.
Please fix the lerk hitbox or move bilebomb to gorge.
_________________
In-game example:
Last game I played, within 3 minutes I had 4 res nodes.
Within 7 minutes, i had augmentation, 2nd hive and 6-7 res nodes.
within 10 minutes I had 4 hives.
Every alien on my team had 100 res.
Server was lagging from all the cysts, clogs, hydras and ARCs.
Another game played:
Marines won because aliens couldn't hold resnodes.
As soon as a marine starts to attack a res node its pretty much good as dead.
I must've redropped at least 20 res nodes, only to have them killed by solo marines.
<img src="http://www.brywright.co.uk/gallery/albums/pre1/151002ns_rc8_5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
CLOGS ARE JUST THE NEW WALL OF LAME.
And you won't give your players any enjoyment with them. Keep the work up and think of something new though, just something proactive and not reactive is needed adding.
EDIT: Also just realised on that post, greedo's text on the left side of the chambers. Epic quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It should be pointed out that unlike NS1 the grenade launcher is a lot more prominent (due to a number of reasons ranging from PRes to the fact that it is an attachment and everyone in your squad can use one with pretty much no downside) and the ARC is a mobile siege cannon. You can roll one in and take it all out then roll out. In NS1 you had to build that cannon right there and then had to recycle it. Taking out walls of lame is a whole lot less tedious in NS2.