when is marines update due?
krakadict
Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148539Members
Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148539Members
when is their long awaited update due? with aliens getting updates after updates the marines are getting seriously underpowered, you've got life forms unlinked to hives(and with this update it seems that you only need one hive to get all abilities) you've had an update to gorge(which i agree that he needed a buff) you've got lerks with bilebomb swooping in and out (and the best thing is you can't kill him because he just soaks all the bullets like nothing happend) and skulks biting a marine while he can't even club the skulk back because he's outta range of your rifle's butt(a slient buff to aliens) onos is the worst after this update, with his armour unnerfed and his stomp able to stun buildings he can now walk into a base with marines turrets shootinging and all he have to do is get a stomp off this lets the other aliens in easy while the marines are too busy picking themselfs of the floor.
so what did marines get that wasn't a nerf?
a welder
a new mine skin which isn't even finished
a power box which was removed but added in again
pretty nano sprites
can sprint faster
yeah nano sprites and faster sprinting.
so lets look at what marines could use
rifle bash stun on skulks/lerks/gorges
rifle bash back to it's old range
reloading while bashing
a damage buff to flamethrower
more spread to shotgun
a faster rate of fire for shotgun
a little more spread on rifles
grenades explode on surface
thats the top of my head.
so what did marines get that wasn't a nerf?
a welder
a new mine skin which isn't even finished
a power box which was removed but added in again
pretty nano sprites
can sprint faster
yeah nano sprites and faster sprinting.
so lets look at what marines could use
rifle bash stun on skulks/lerks/gorges
rifle bash back to it's old range
reloading while bashing
a damage buff to flamethrower
more spread to shotgun
a faster rate of fire for shotgun
a little more spread on rifles
grenades explode on surface
thats the top of my head.
Comments
(...)
<b>reloading while bashing</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to see this, the way L4D2 did it.
+1
Also exos.
It's a video game, nobody cares, focus on what makes the game better.
Anyways, I agree that marines are currently outmatched but I don't feel like any of the existing mechanics really need changing, rather they need new mechanics (like the exosuit) to deal with alien mechanics that currently have no response.
Marine vs Skulk is the only thing I could see fully fixed by balance changes to existing mechanics, but I know there's more marines can do in those fights that they aren't doing. I rarely see marines switching to hand-axe when both guns need reloading, but those that do are the most successful players on the team. I don't see much point in rebalancing when the average player is still ignoring a third of their tools. Some tutorials would be great when the devs (or some community members) have time to make them.
The hell they do, marines have guns for a reason and if one cant kill the enemy in 50 bullets one should not have an easy out melee stun that can be employed at no cost whatsoever. The game should not be balanced around 1v1 combat but around team combat and marines have far superior synergy to skulks due to being able to support each other anywhere with LoS (heck, its even easier to hit skulks who arent right next to you but rather are trying to kill a not too distant team mate). Let us see what the exosuit does then we can discuss marine balance, without it it's like discussing alien balance without onos or fade in the game.
When?
Any Gorilla kind of event? Any BUS?
ONOS -> GORILLA
EXO -> BFG?
i get it exosuits will save the day and make the game fun, no.
<!--quoteo(post=1930868:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:01 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 28 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this, everything else on your list isn't really an issue imo. Yes aliens have been getting a lot of attention, but let's not forget a lot of that attention has been in the form of reworks and nerfs. UWE are working hard on improving balance and the mechanics responsible for the current poor balance, most of these mechanics lie on the alien end of things. (Because in the NS 1 to NS 2 conversion aliens received the biggest make-over, as a result they require and will continue requiring more attention)
Also exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if most of the balance issues are on the aliens side then why did they undo hive lifeforms? which is a clearly a buff, get a good Khamm that spams augment on RT's and they'll have onos/fades by the time marines have any upgrades to level 3 with 2-3 RT's.
<!--quoteo(post=1930873:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 28 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering exo is suppose to be the tier 3 of tech like onos is the tier 3 of aliens, it's a pretty big deal. It's also a commonly cited source of balance that will bring alot of material in the game into equilibrium. So yes, it is a very important part of the game that direly needs implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with life forms unlink to hives aliens don't have a tier tree now all they have to do is save up 50/75 res.
<!--quoteo(post=1930951:date=Apr 28 2012, 03:58 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Apr 28 2012, 03:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The hell they do, marines have guns for a reason and if one cant kill the enemy in 50 bullets one should not have an easy out melee stun that can be employed at no cost whatsoever. The game should not be balanced around 1v1 combat but around team combat and marines have far superior synergy to skulks due to being able to support each other anywhere with LoS (heck, its even easier to hit skulks who arent right next to you but rather are trying to kill a not too distant team mate). Let us see what the exosuit does then we can discuss marine balance, without it it's like discussing alien balance without onos or fade in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you do know 50 bullets don't mean jack when you cant hit the skulk when it's doing 360 cartwheels around you and like you said "(heck, its even easier to hit skulks who arent right next to you but rather are trying to kill a not too distant team mate)".
<!--quoteo(post=1930957:date=Apr 28 2012, 04:09 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 28 2012, 04:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reloading while bashing completely trivializes the decision of when to reload. Reloading should leave you vulnerable. Think about what the zombies have to counter the firepower of the survivors in L4D - they have guaranteed kill lockdown moves on almost every class. Give aliens that and then we'll talk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and what leave aliens vulnerable after they've used a ability? fades after bilnk? lerks after landing? skulks after leaping? yeah nothing leaves aliens vulnerable.
Flamethrower in it's current state should cost 10 - 15 resources from the normal armory
I was never bothered by it in NS:1, but the poor performance of the Shottie in NS:2 does make me really want to speak out against it and ask for a "higher tech" version that lets you continuously shoot without pumping it each time?
I don't know if I agree with rifle stun. . . I'm with most people that stun mechanics in this game are a bad idea
Would like to see grenade not become a useless weapon if aliens have a single whip out tucked behind a wall, however
<i>(The Rock, Paper, Scissors balance is nauseating if you're a competitive player)</i>
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why was it needed? because you had to work for better life forms? so you can have it easy? even when marines are winning they can still pull an onos out of their arse and win thanks to this unlinked hive BS.
<!--quoteo(post=1931066:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:52 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Apr 28 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting 90% through a reload and bashing because a skulk gets on top of you and it's either that or risk dieing before you get another shot off is kinda annoying when it cancels said reload and the bash isn't enough damage to finish off the skulk
Flamethrower in it's current state should cost 10 - 15 resources from the normal armory
I was never bothered by it in NS:1, but the poor performance of the Shottie in NS:2 does make me really want to speak out against it and ask for a "higher tech" version that lets you continuously shoot without pumping it each time?
I don't know if I agree with rifle stun. . . I'm with most people that stun mechanics in this game are a bad idea
Would like to see grenade not become a useless weapon if aliens have a single whip out tucked behind a wall, however
<i>(The Rock, Paper, Scissors balance is nauseating if you're a competitive player)</i>
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed on the flamethower and the shotgun in NS1 had a faster RoF and was still a pump action so why the slow shotgun in NS2? by the time you get two shots off skulks are biting you. rifle's butt stun could be 0.5-0.7sec stun time, enough to get your bearings and if people didn't want stun mechanics in game why can the onos stun both player and building
The problem with stuns is the obvious stun lock
Seriously. . . 2 Marines in a vent. . .
What is a skulk going to do if they are both flailing bash?
I'm way more for a disorient or a knockback than just hardlocking enemies because "congrats, you landed the initial blow"
Also. . .
I seriously have way more fun with the Onos when I don't have Augment
<i>(I realize good Marines can just jump out of stomp, but there is no satisfaction in killing helpless enemies that you do catch in them)</i>
-
Killed alot of Onoses that were almost back at the hive
And if you use the Obstacles in the map, f.e. Summit Reception on Summit, you can even solo a Onos with no JP.
The Marine Update is every performance update we see. The better the Server and Client performance, the better marines are, fact. 1 LMG Mag can kill every Alien but the Onos.
Also Marines have a free ESP with the HudMap.
And the EXO can solo a 2 Hives, or 10 Onos without reloading, putting out 12500 heavy DMG.
The resource system is flawed in this regard, there's no way to stop multiple players from going onos once 1 player can, unless you start hardcapping them based on number of hives, which probably isn't an ideal solution either. I suggested before that a good way to solve this would be to remove p.res, have the comm make lifeforms available with t.res. Though I doubt UWE is keen on reworking their resource model. Another solution would be to scale onos strenght with number of hives or specific tech, but that too is something UWE, for no legit reason really, doesn't want to do. (It's really frustrating how this forum is filled with so many good and often simple ideas on how to address some core balance issues that don't receive nearly as much attention as they should)
And no exo's won't solve this, because like I said numerous times already, exo's will never come out as quickly as the first onos does. (Since exos require a significant t.res investment and tech research time, onos is essentially unlocked from the start and only requires p.res)
The problem with stuns is the obvious stun lock
Seriously. . . 2 Marines in a vent. . .
What is a skulk going to do if they are both flailing bash?
I'm way more for a disorient or a knockback than just hardlocking enemies because "congrats, you landed the initial blow"
Also. . .
I seriously have way more fun with the Onos when I don't have Augment
<i>(I realize good Marines can just jump out of stomp, but there is no satisfaction in killing helpless enemies that you do catch in them)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree that bring stunned to death is no fun but have a look at onos, he can keep you down long enough to kill you so why not bring in diminishing returns for BOTH teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1931100:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what thr problem is with Onos? They are very easy to kill if 4 Marines shoot 1 mag + pistol into a Onos it is dead, and if a Onos runs away, no matter how much HP you have, chace him because often 1 LMG mag is then enough to kill that fat thing.
Killed alot of Onoses that were almost back at the hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 rifle mags and a pistol mag to down a onos is total BS and you know it, i've seen 6+ marines open up on a onos and he just runs off or just stomps us.
<!--quoteo(post=1931100:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if you use the Obstacles in the map, f.e. Summit Reception on Summit, you can even solo a Onos with no JP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's not a game mechanic thats using your head.
<!--quoteo(post=1931100:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Marine Update is every performance update we see. The better the Server and Client performance, the better marines are, fact. 1 LMG Mag can kill every Alien but the Onos.
Also Marines have a free ESP with the HudMap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it might take 15 hits to kill a skulk and it might take 25 hits to kill a lerks but in no way can you kill an alien with less then 50 bullets when he's moving around and every performance update don't just benefit marines it also helps the aliens and marine might have a map but you've got sonar and hive vision we've a flashlight that dont even work right.
<!--quoteo(post=1931100:date=Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the EXO can solo a 2 Hives, or 10 Onos without reloading, putting out 12500 heavy DMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what are you smoking? there's no way in hell the exeosuit will be able to solo 10 onos or 2 hives with or without reloading.
Did everyone read this? It's pretty important.
The exosuit isn't going to solve all the marines' problems. In fact, it probably won't solve any of them. Just like the jetpack, it won't be useful outside of games that you have already won, but can't figure out how to end. If it's any different (and the rest of the game is similar) it will be another boring imbalanced trashcan like ARCs!
The exosuit isn't going to solve all the marines' problems. In fact, it probably won't solve any of them. Just like the jetpack, it won't be useful outside of games that you have already won, but can't figure out how to end. If it's any different (and the rest of the game is similar) it will be another boring imbalanced trashcan like ARCs!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
4x50x(10-5)= 1000 normal DMG
4x10x(25-5)= 800 Light DMG
Base Onos HP againts normal DMG = 600+400+400 = 1400
So infact 4 marines with lvl 0 LMG and 5 shots out of pistol, can kill an onos, without cara, in 3 seconds. With cara it needs some pistol shots more.
[added hide armor, ty Techriser]
<!--quoteo(post=1931138:date=Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM:name=krakadict)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krakadict @ Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree that bring stunned to death is no fun but have a look at onos, he can keep you down long enough to kill you so why not bring in diminishing returns for BOTH teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just jump when you see the stomp animation starting, you will jump overt the wave and not getting stunned.
<!--quoteo(post=1931138:date=Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM:name=krakadict)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krakadict @ Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's not a game mechanic thats using your head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Using your head is a game mechanic. There are enough games that you don't need to think. My opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1931138:date=Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM:name=krakadict)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krakadict @ Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it might take 15 hits to kill a skulk and it might take 25 hits to kill a lerks but in no way can you kill an alien with less then 50 bullets when he's moving around and every performance update don't just benefit marines it also helps the aliens and marine might have a map but you've got sonar and hive vision we've a flashlight that dont even work right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know enough players that can track ultrafast objects. And if every shot is registrey correctly, soon, Marines gona be buffed alot. LMG need 10 hits for a skulk, 29 for a gorge, 19 for a lerk and 30 for a Fade (Weapons 0 and no cara). So only 30 of 50 bullets need to hit to kill a base fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1931138:date=Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM:name=krakadict)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krakadict @ Apr 28 2012, 05:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what are you smoking? there's no way in hell the exeosuit will be able to solo 10 onos or 2 hives with or without reloading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I some what I wan't.
An EXO comes with a minigun. The minigun does 25DMG per shot and has a total of 250 bullets in the mag. There will be an option to hold a 2. Minigun.
So you have 2x 250shots of 25 heavy DMG. 25x250x2=12500 DMG.
A base onos has 600HP and 400AP = a total of 1000HP (heavy DMG deals 1:1 DMG to armor)
12500/1000= 12,5 onoses dead, with Cara 10.
[ignored hide armor]
Edit for Info: An EXO with 2 Miniguns will need 1.2s to kill an onos with cara.
Any more questions?
4x10x25= 1000 Light DMG
Base Onos HP againts normal DMG = 600+400+400 = 1400
So infact 4 marines with lvl 0 LMG can kill an onos, without cara, in 2 seconds. With cara it needs some pistol shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone's forgetting hide armor.
Uh... you don't know this? That's quite an assumption you are making there buddy. Especially considering Pres and cost discussions lately. What about the patches lately make you think that grand scale changes aren't easy to make? lol and that sorta change is a simple number change! Balance, especially in regards to timings, will occur after the remaining features are implemented. One of those is the Exo.
Have some faith :)
<!--quoteo(post=1931142:date=Apr 28 2012, 07:05 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 28 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exosuit isn't going to solve all the marines' problems. In fact, it probably won't solve any of them. Just like the jetpack, it won't be useful outside of games that you have already won, but can't figure out how to end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above as well ^
Have some faith :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know it's going to require a proto lab, which requires an advanced armory, that's enought to know you're not going to get it in 6 minutes to be honest :p
And I honestly would rather they not ruin the early game even more, they need to address the onos, not offer an exo at 6 minutes to counter the onos.
4x10x(25-5)= 800 Light DMG
Base Onos HP againts normal DMG = 600+400+400 = 1400
So infact 4 marines with lvl 0 LMG and 5 shots out of pistol, can kill an onos, without cara, in 3 seconds. With cara it needs some pistol shots more.
[added hide armor, ty Techriser]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're saying that 4 marines can kill an onos in 3 seconds flat when the rifle takes longer to empty and then you've got to switch to the pistol and by that time the onos is gone.
<!--quoteo(post=1931247:date=Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just jump when you see the stomp animation starting, you will jump overt the wave and not getting stunned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
even if you jump over the stomp (which imo is really silly) you can still be gore stunned to death
<!--quoteo(post=1931247:date=Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Using your head is a game mechanic. There are enough games that you don't need to think. My opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might as well use your head to kill skulks, it'll probably kill them faster using headbutt
<!--quoteo(post=1931247:date=Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know enough players that can track ultrafast objects. And if every shot is registrey correctly, soon, Marines gona be buffed alot. LMG need 10 hits for a skulk, 29 for a gorge, 19 for a lerk and 30 for a Fade (Weapons 0 and no cara). So only 30 of 50 bullets need to hit to kill a base fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not every player can track ultrafast objects, and making the hitreg better doesn't mean it's a buff to marine because it ALSO have a effect on the aliens hitreg.
<!--quoteo(post=1931247:date=Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 28 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I some what I wan't.
An EXO comes with a minigun. The minigun does 25DMG per shot and has a total of 250 bullets in the mag. There will be an option to hold a 2. Minigun.
So you have 2x 250shots of 25 heavy DMG. 25x250x2=12500 DMG.
A base onos has 600HP and 400AP = a total of 1000HP (heavy DMG deals 1:1 DMG to armor)
12500/1000= 12,5 onoses dead, with Cara 10.
[ignored hide armor]
Edit for Info: An EXO with 2 Miniguns will need 1.2s to kill an onos with cara.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they wont let an onos die in 1.2 seconds that'll be absurd and you're doing the math in a controlled environment with non moving/attacking targets.
<!--quoteo(post=1931266:date=Apr 28 2012, 07:11 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh... you don't know this? That's quite an assumption you are making there buddy. Especially considering Pres and cost discussions lately. What about the patches lately make you think that grand scale changes aren't easy to make? lol and that sorta change is a simple number change! Balance, especially in regards to timings, will occur after the remaining features are implemented. One of those is the Exo.
Have some faith :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
he's right the cost of Tres build time and research time is far far longer then aliens getting onos, which they only need to save up 75 Pres.
i'd love to see what the Devs point of view on this is.
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->probably in favor of the aliens community because thats where most of the moaning comes from.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></span>
And I honestly would rather they not ruin the early game even more, they need to address the onos, not offer an exo at 6 minutes to counter the onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, that sort of change is an easy numbers change that will be done after implementation.
Hell, your concern regarding Onos timing (and all alien timings)<b> is based on the current build.</b>
The Onos is fine for the most part?