Tactic against Arcs?
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Now i had a lot of games, even with 206 but i notice its not possible to kill arcs before they kill the hive.
I think its not very balanced, because my whole team attack them and we just knock one by one.
<b>Wait, before you troll here...</b>
Sure, a lerk bilebomb could help BUT not if the marine put the arcs in diffrent places (and if no one is lerk or can go lerk because of res...), also it takes still very long specialy if marines spam arcs.
And if there marines defending them, its like impossible to kill all arcs before they destroy the hive and i don't talk about 4, in the most games, the marine commander got like 6-10 or more and im not kidding!
There is no tactic to kill them, so how kill them? one by one takes way to much...even as any lifeform of aliens.
Bilebomb helps but only if the marine commander put them in a line...
A good commander put them in the whole hive room.
So tell me a good tactic to kill all arcs without lerk bilebomb?
There is NONE!
The only thing you can do is going lerk or be lerk and even if you are lerk you have no chance, because like i said, if the arcs well placed, you can only hit 3 or 4 but while the health of them goes very slow down, they killed the hive.
p.s. i know its very hard and mostly impossible, but please do not troll...
I think its not very balanced, because my whole team attack them and we just knock one by one.
<b>Wait, before you troll here...</b>
Sure, a lerk bilebomb could help BUT not if the marine put the arcs in diffrent places (and if no one is lerk or can go lerk because of res...), also it takes still very long specialy if marines spam arcs.
And if there marines defending them, its like impossible to kill all arcs before they destroy the hive and i don't talk about 4, in the most games, the marine commander got like 6-10 or more and im not kidding!
There is no tactic to kill them, so how kill them? one by one takes way to much...even as any lifeform of aliens.
Bilebomb helps but only if the marine commander put them in a line...
A good commander put them in the whole hive room.
So tell me a good tactic to kill all arcs without lerk bilebomb?
There is NONE!
The only thing you can do is going lerk or be lerk and even if you are lerk you have no chance, because like i said, if the arcs well placed, you can only hit 3 or 4 but while the health of them goes very slow down, they killed the hive.
p.s. i know its very hard and mostly impossible, but please do not troll...
Comments
You'll need a fade or onos to deal with the marines guarding the train, then get skulks lerks and other onos to attack the arcs ASAP.
By the time the train arrives at the hive there should be maybe 3 or 4 left, then you can quickly get rid of them and heal the hive.
The main thing is to get all the team to attack the arc train without delay.
1 Onos with augment and ARCs are useless in it's wake
2 Lerks with augment can burn down ARCs with BB very quickly
Future patches might actually allow Gorge Clogs to block ARCs <i>(again /w augment)</i>
so if you're pubbing the choice is obvious; go straight for Onos and yell at your comm until they get aug
1 Onos with augment and ARCs are useless in it's wake<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Today i noticed a bug though. I stomped and some arc's did not disable even though they were in the stomp zone.
1 Onos with augment and ARCs are useless in it's wake
2 Lerks with augment can burn down ARCs with BB very quickly
Future patches might actually allow Gorge Clogs to block ARCs <i>(again /w augment)</i>
so if you're pubbing the choice is obvious; go straight for Onos and yell at your comm until they get aug<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 onos stomp don't work, i try 1 minute ago, i got a line of arcs in my front, i stomped and nothing happend, they fire...i attacked them but i died because of marines spamming nades and shoot with shotguns.
But its great, that onos switch the attack automatic to gore on arcs.
2 Lerks are realy useless if like i said, the arcs aren't in a row also the lerks die fast, don't forget marines are playing too ^^.
And onos is expensive, so its not "natural" saying just go onos to kill marines defending the arcs ;)
They just have to shoot nade spam near the arcs (every rine has 6 nades) or shotguns take down lerks very fast.
Most of the time its one room next to the hive, filled with sentrys.
I realy try to kill them also my team does, but its realy not possible if there comming so many arcs.
Only if the arcs stand next to each other...but no rine commander do that.
<!--quoteo(post=1930782:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll need a fade or onos to deal with the marines guarding the train, then get skulks lerks and other onos to attack the arcs ASAP.
By the time the train arrives at the hive there should be maybe 3 or 4 left, then you can quickly get rid of them and heal the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade is to hard, i notice that not many people play fade anymore in 206, very less people, because i guess he die to fast, thats the reason why i don't play him anymore.
But yeah Onos is a good counterpart to kill marines defending the train but the onos itself is to slow to kill the arcs then.
<!--quoteo(post=1930782:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Apr 27 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The main thing is to get all the team to attack the arc train without delay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats what we do all the time, i was lerk and bilebomb them, my teammates are skulks and bite all the arcs, but while we killed one by one, the other arcs killed the hive so quick.
Don't forget, the arcs are not the only enemys, why the aliens attack the arcs, they have to attack the marines, marines also can shoot the hive and aliens, which makes it impossible to defend.
<!--quoteo(post=1930775:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:56 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Apr 27 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->p.s. i know its very hard and mostly impossible, but please do not troll...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you are playtester, what a shame...damn troll.
This whole thread is actually trolling. It's pretty blatant tbh but hey, it got responses. 4/10 would nearly ignore again.
Your only other real option here is an Onos who just stands there and manages his stomp timing while his team goes at it. Then again if the Marines know how to hit the space bar the Onos is probably dead.
So... send the Lerks in, have the Aliens bumrush the Marine team and <b><u>if</u></b> you kill them <b><u>then</u></b> by that point the Lerks have probably managed to make to the fight at their snail pace where they can then sit around dropping bile bomb.
If aliens try to kill the Marines defending the ARCs train, they will likely lose the Hive, simply because the ARCs have enough toughness and the DPS to take down their target EVEN when being focused on.
Apart from Lerk Bilebomb, Onos Stomp, there is little Aliens can do, short of killing ARCs with brute force.
If aliens try to kill the Marines defending the ARCs train, they will likely lose the Hive, simply because the ARCs have enough toughness and the DPS to take down their target EVEN when being focused on.
Apart from Lerk Bilebomb, Onos Stomp, there is little Aliens can do, short of killing ARCs with brute force.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can not belive this, there is realy more then trolls in this forum?
Thank you twiliteblue, finaly someone with a brain and not just "oh its price, i have to troll" mood...
Its exactly the problem what you say and is exactly what i try to say.
But its horrible that playtesters now troll the forums and nobody do something...thats why this whole forum has such a aggresive mood, because of the trolls.
Why not make them cost more, have more armour, and actually cause real fights in certain points in the game.
I was playing a game yesterday, and the marines sent 6 ARCs + in groups to different hives. It is an unorganized mess of spam.
I wish those days would come back, but I think they're long gone now...
Something you have to look after, rather than sending x8 to each hive... really tedious.
There shouldnt be a<i> hard counter</i> to arcs. they are nothing special. they are slow, easy to spot, slow to wind up and armor-less when deployed. <b>They can be killed by ANY alien class.</b> (to include a swarm of drifters :-P) Onos stomp SHOULD work, if it doesn't please provide reproducing steps / a video and we'll get on it. But stomp just delays it, the Onos can still smash those things quickly, and ofc BB works great too, and so do skulk bites.
Basically, what im saying is, there is a dozen general ways and a few specific ways to destroy these things and they are a viable tactic! They dont get much play in competitive games for a reason - because they aren't as OP as some feel they are in pubs, <i>they just require more <b>teamwork </b>to battle.</i>
I mean look, some of the first posts for this patch were people saying that HYDRA FARMS were killing arcs before they could deploy. HYDRA FARMS!
What i think would help this situation is increasing the HP/armor of the hive again. The numbers are still lower compared to Pre-kneejerk-reaction-to-stalemates levels, so two marines with shotguns can bring it down sometimes.
Lastly, and least important, whether the word "whining" should be taken as trolling or not is debatable, but Quotivas still has a point - there is no argument if the marines are still standing. (Oh yea, and PTers are subject to making errors, having opinions etc, this job doesn't make us perfect posters suddenly? We're human, too, ya know)
Something you have to look after, rather than sending x8 to each hive... really tedious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good point, i though about the same.
Or maybe give the arc itself some upgrades to increase the armor and health but also the cost of it.
So over time it get stronger but also expensive.
<!--quoteo(post=1931262:date=Apr 28 2012, 09:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There shouldnt be a<i> hard counter</i> to arcs. they are nothing special. they are slow, easy to spot, slow to wind up and armor-less when deployed. <b>They can be killed by ANY alien class.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, everyone can get killed by everyone...the time matters!
Today again some arc rushes and it was like 7 or more and ALL aliens attack them, even me and another lerk, we finaly destroyed them but the hive got 10% left it was just very big luck the marines don't move with them.
I guess it was a coordination problem.
To the hydra thing, this is a big diffrence, because there tons of ways to kill hydras effective, but only bilebomb on alien side to kill arcs.
And if i ask people ingame, they totaly agree...on alien side :P
Something you have to look after, rather than sending x8 to each hive... really tedious.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would see an almost identical scenario but with fewer arcs being sent to each location.
The problem with arcs is slightly deeper I feel. Nerfing arc cost/damage/hp/ap will only delay the inevitable. Part of the issue is the fact that they can be built in secure bases and will never be realistically targetable until they move out. On top of this, it means that there is literally no build-time at the point of contention so every marine is free to expend all their efforts fighting off enemies.
One solution might be to make it so that arcs have to be deployed by marines. A commander would create a set number of arcs, send them to the desired location and then activate them for deployment in very much the same way as we have currently. At this point, however, the arcs wouldn't actually deploy. Instead, they would have to be 'built' by marines before they could start firing. Once their role has been fulfilled, they could either be 'unbuilt' or undeployed by the commander (I would give the comm this ability because I have a sneaky feeling asking marines to 'unbuild' arcs would be a mission in itself). They could then move on to the next location. This would be good for a few reasons:
(1) It adds vulnerability to marines at siege locations and incentivises costly phase-tech/armoury entrenchments a little more
(2) The effectiveness of arcs would be staggered in such a way that hives don't get instagibbed
(3) Sneaky arc rushes would require time and presence to set up - replacing a "push while they're preoccupied and mass-deploy" approach
(4) Marines would still be crucial for the success of an arc push and, better still, the more marines the quicker the impact
(5) Arc deployment spots would be highly important because of the time invested in setting them up
(6) Arcs still stay mobile!
I had other games today and it seems sometimes it works, sometimes the stomp don't work.
Thanks to a onos who stomp the arcs, i could bilebomb the arcs.
So maybe its just a bug, but arc train always drain the fps.
(2) The effectiveness of arcs would be staggered in such a way that hives don't get instagibbed
(3) Sneaky arc rushes would require time and presence to set up - replacing a "push while they're preoccupied and mass-deploy" approach
(4) Marines would still be crucial for the success of an arc push and, better still, the more marines the quicker the impact
(5) Arc deployment spots would be highly important because of the time invested in setting them up
(6) Arcs still stay mobile!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hate to jump on this so soon but
1) they are already vulnerable locations, often spotted by hivesight way ahead of time from infestation OR drifters (this patch) and then they take a while to get there, then deploy, get close enough , have marines fight off the incoming aliens, protect the arcs, and possibly weld them. This is already a laundry list against them!
2) hives get instagibbed cuz of their health, (as i mentioned above) not because they can deploy at the same time.
3) A sneaky rush wouldnt be very sneaky if it took a while to set up, now would it? ppl would just ninja PG with GLs instead if this happened - especially given that sneaky is hard enough given hivesight!
4) Marines are still currently crucial for the success of arcs? try sending an arc train into an alien base without any covering marine in a comp game.
5) Arc pathfinding / range / setup is already a pain for the commander - it doesnt need to be increased. Removing the drifter due to lack of ease of use is a good example here.
decreasing the amount of arcs merely requires less teamwork. not sure if that should occur??
Yes, AI pathfinding for all units is a huge drain on the server right now. It's a real shame UWE lost their guy for that, it hasn't been updated since.
1) they are already vulnerable locations, often spotted by hivesight way ahead of time from infestation OR drifters (this patch) and then they take a while to get there, then deploy, get close enough , have marines fight off the incoming aliens, protect the arcs, and possibly weld them. This is already a laundry list against them!
2) hives get instagibbed cuz of their health, (as i mentioned above) not because they can deploy at the same time.
3) A sneaky rush wouldnt be very sneaky if it took a while to set up, now would it? ppl would just ninja PG with GLs instead if this happened - especially given that sneaky is hard enough given hivesight!
4) Marines are still currently crucial for the success of arcs? try sending an arc train into an alien base without any covering marine in a comp game.
5) Arc pathfinding / range / setup is already a pain for the commander - it doesnt need to be increased. Removing the drifter due to lack of ease of use is a good example here.
decreasing the amount of arcs merely requires less teamwork. not sure if that should occur??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) My vulnerability was referring not to the location but to the added task of 'building' the arc. The mish-mash of duties you list can be summarised by "follow the arcs, kill the aliens". The point of the thread to begin with was that arc rushes, when implemented, can always be unstoppable given the right number of arcs. My suggestion addresses this.
2) Hives get instagibbed because arcs all deploy and fire in unison ('building' addresses this). Low hive health contributes to the ease of this but is not the cause of it. It's pretty weird to throw that up as a defence of the current implementation of arcs anyway. :/
3) I was working of the premise that sneaky arc rushes are bad because they require zero marine effort if there are enough arcs. For sneaky siege-fans I was merely illustrating that is still possible, albeit with at least one marine is required (hivesight does scupper it somewhat but it is endemic and I don't see hivesight lasting anyway).
4) The point is that given enough arcs, any arc train can be successful and that is retarded. Emphasing marines more in this role is the OPPOSITE of discouraging teamwork, clearly. Even competitively, you end up with multiple mini-arc rushes accompanied by two-man squads. Killing these marines is only part of the story because the arcs still pose a serious threat and every second invested in destroying those arcs is a second that the other arc team is using to advance. Rinse and repeat.
5) Pathfinding is pretty much irrelevant but, like range, is important regardless of whether you implement my suggestion or not. The setup process is pretty much the same too. I don't know why you're comparing it to the removal of the drifter because the number of actions for the commander would be absolutely identical. I could start to justify self-building armouries using your logic: "just get rid of the drifter a.k.a marine". I'm sure you can spot the fallacy here... In every respect, the commander makes the decision in the same way, except that he needs to be wary of future pushing (not immediately pressing) and he needs to be sure that marines are actually there (a good thing).
Also, decreasing the amount of arcs does barely anything to teamwork because marines still adopt the overriding principle of "follow arcs and shoot aliens". The only way this affects teamwork is through the increased time spent-welding and if arcs get spread out all over the place like an uncorrelated scatterplot (they don't). 'Building' arcs by comparison demands far more teamwork.
Basically, I don't really feel like you've done anything to refute my suggestion at all really.