Lets talk about having fun as a marine
Freemantle
Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Members
Join Date: 2002-06-16 Member: 783Members
<!--QuoteBegin-"Design Summary"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Design Summary")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->NS2 is a shooter first, and RTS second... Ultimately about teamplay, communication and working together.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing Marines in the current build could be a lot more enjoyable. Much of the non-combat gameplay revolves around travelling as a team and listening to your commander -- this is the good part. Much of the combat revolves around your rifle aim vs. a “dancing†skulk. If you are able to solo a skulk, or multiple skulks, the commander will be able to hold extractors with fewer soldiers and expand. If your team loses the skulk/rifle dance, your commander will turtle and bank resources, hoping an opportunity presents itself to push. The window for this opportunity closes after aliens hit tier 2 (Used to be 2nd hive, then it was Onos, now it is augmentation).
The closing of this window is what many players are complaining about.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Design Summary"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Design Summary")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Knowing that a team is executing a strategy should allow an equally skilled team to defeat that strategy.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines rarely get this opportunity, as responding with a change in tactics requires resources to be invested at the commander (t.res) level. Resources that are scarce if the marines are turtling. Also, the marine response to most escalation is “make our armor thicker and our guns do more damage,†which lacks depth and is directly in conflict with...
<!--QuoteBegin-"Design Summary"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Design Summary")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->There aren’t “magic†numbers unless absolutely necessary.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current armor and weapon upgrades may not be “magic†in the sense of the design document, but they are certainly dogmatic. “Fights are in my favor now because my commander clicked a button and I have a badge on my hud.†That really isn’t engaging for anyone except the commander, who will now see his team miraculously winning fights a little more than they were previously. This is procedural, not tactical or even fun.
Ninja phase gates and gl rushes are not the norm. The more common tactical plays that the whole marine team participates in include:
<ol type='1'><li>Beacon and Push</li><li>Protect the Arc Train<b>*</b></li><li>Jetpack / Shotgun rush<b>*</b></li></ol>
Of the three, the first is the only one that can be done without an exorbitant amount of resources. The 2nd and 3rd would only come into play if you were trying to break the mid and late game stalemate. Stale is a double entendre here, because the combat feels pretty meaningless at this stage of the game. Aliens attack structures, hoping to destroy them before they are killed or chased away and the structures are welded. Marines pour lead into higher life forms, hoping to kill them before they run away or kill every marine in the room.
This combat is actually <i>worse</i> for marines. The aliens will identify the weakness of the marine team and counter it with bile bombs, spores, stomp, blink, or WoL. The marine players will see this as “abusive†because their gameplay does not dynamically shift like the alien team does. It sucks to lose as a marine, because you feel helpless and the combat just isn’t fun unless you win.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>I have a fleshed-out idea on how to make marine combat a little more fun. I’ll share the seed of it here:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Weapons are free, but cost armory energy:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Must still be researched. More armories = more energy.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Healing at an armory costs energy.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Marine weapon upgrades are no longer flat damage upgrades, they allow marines to purchase weapon customizations:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Each level of upgrades the commander researches allows the marines to equip more upgrades per weapon.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Marine weapons all have 3 customizations available:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Examples would be an extended clip size, enhanced accuracy, reduced shotgun fall-off, armor piercing, incendiary effect, etc. The commander would need to research weapons 3 for marines to be able to equip all three upgrades on a weapon. </li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b> Customizations cost p.res:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> They are bought at the armory at the same time the weapon is purchased. 3 customizations is very expensive, 2 is moderately expensive, 1 is semi-trivial. A weapon purchased without upgrades is free. Customizations must be bought with each new weapon, and also must be bought to “switch†on a currently equipped weapon. Weapons cost the same amount of armory energy regardless of how customized they are. Weapons dropped near the armory are auto-recycled back into energy, but the p.res is lost.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Tweak balance numbers for subdued damage progression from marine weapons:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This might be fewer changes than you think.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Armor customizations:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You can just go wild here... auto medpack every 60 seconds, puncture resistance, re-breather, whatever you think will allow the marines to become a more tactical tool for the commander to wield.</li></ul>
Playing Marines in the current build could be a lot more enjoyable. Much of the non-combat gameplay revolves around travelling as a team and listening to your commander -- this is the good part. Much of the combat revolves around your rifle aim vs. a “dancing†skulk. If you are able to solo a skulk, or multiple skulks, the commander will be able to hold extractors with fewer soldiers and expand. If your team loses the skulk/rifle dance, your commander will turtle and bank resources, hoping an opportunity presents itself to push. The window for this opportunity closes after aliens hit tier 2 (Used to be 2nd hive, then it was Onos, now it is augmentation).
The closing of this window is what many players are complaining about.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Design Summary"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Design Summary")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Knowing that a team is executing a strategy should allow an equally skilled team to defeat that strategy.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines rarely get this opportunity, as responding with a change in tactics requires resources to be invested at the commander (t.res) level. Resources that are scarce if the marines are turtling. Also, the marine response to most escalation is “make our armor thicker and our guns do more damage,†which lacks depth and is directly in conflict with...
<!--QuoteBegin-"Design Summary"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Design Summary")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->There aren’t “magic†numbers unless absolutely necessary.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current armor and weapon upgrades may not be “magic†in the sense of the design document, but they are certainly dogmatic. “Fights are in my favor now because my commander clicked a button and I have a badge on my hud.†That really isn’t engaging for anyone except the commander, who will now see his team miraculously winning fights a little more than they were previously. This is procedural, not tactical or even fun.
Ninja phase gates and gl rushes are not the norm. The more common tactical plays that the whole marine team participates in include:
<ol type='1'><li>Beacon and Push</li><li>Protect the Arc Train<b>*</b></li><li>Jetpack / Shotgun rush<b>*</b></li></ol>
Of the three, the first is the only one that can be done without an exorbitant amount of resources. The 2nd and 3rd would only come into play if you were trying to break the mid and late game stalemate. Stale is a double entendre here, because the combat feels pretty meaningless at this stage of the game. Aliens attack structures, hoping to destroy them before they are killed or chased away and the structures are welded. Marines pour lead into higher life forms, hoping to kill them before they run away or kill every marine in the room.
This combat is actually <i>worse</i> for marines. The aliens will identify the weakness of the marine team and counter it with bile bombs, spores, stomp, blink, or WoL. The marine players will see this as “abusive†because their gameplay does not dynamically shift like the alien team does. It sucks to lose as a marine, because you feel helpless and the combat just isn’t fun unless you win.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>I have a fleshed-out idea on how to make marine combat a little more fun. I’ll share the seed of it here:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Weapons are free, but cost armory energy:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Must still be researched. More armories = more energy.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Healing at an armory costs energy.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Marine weapon upgrades are no longer flat damage upgrades, they allow marines to purchase weapon customizations:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Each level of upgrades the commander researches allows the marines to equip more upgrades per weapon.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Marine weapons all have 3 customizations available:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Examples would be an extended clip size, enhanced accuracy, reduced shotgun fall-off, armor piercing, incendiary effect, etc. The commander would need to research weapons 3 for marines to be able to equip all three upgrades on a weapon. </li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b> Customizations cost p.res:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> They are bought at the armory at the same time the weapon is purchased. 3 customizations is very expensive, 2 is moderately expensive, 1 is semi-trivial. A weapon purchased without upgrades is free. Customizations must be bought with each new weapon, and also must be bought to “switch†on a currently equipped weapon. Weapons cost the same amount of armory energy regardless of how customized they are. Weapons dropped near the armory are auto-recycled back into energy, but the p.res is lost.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Tweak balance numbers for subdued damage progression from marine weapons:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This might be fewer changes than you think.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Armor customizations:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You can just go wild here... auto medpack every 60 seconds, puncture resistance, re-breather, whatever you think will allow the marines to become a more tactical tool for the commander to wield.</li></ul>
Comments
There are already threads about this. Let's not talk about the aliens. At all. Let's talk about marines. Like:
<ul><li>Marine armor upgrade to call out aliens through spores.</li><li>Marine armor upgrade to remove knockdown.</li></ul>
It's a lot like what you said, just without being negative or repetitive. Bonus points: adding counters gives marines the ability to give hell back.
At this point (after seeing TF2 become the worst game ever, with new ideas continually flooding in and complicating the gameplay), I'm really against players making any suggestions like this. At some level, like it or not, you have to respect the fact that Flayra has been designing the NS series for 10 years. He has a pretty good idea what the 'core mechanics' are, and how they relate...it's just a matter of tweaking them, in a lot of cases. I made<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118104" target="_blank"> a post </a>about this recently, because the amount of new stuff going into this game is making it too difficult to ever balance or release.
With that said, I'll respond to each of your ideas to illustrate what I mean:
<!--quoteo(post=1931933:date=Apr 30 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Freemantle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Freemantle @ Apr 30 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>I have a fleshed-out idea on how to make marine combat a little more fun. I’ll share the seed of it here:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Weapons are free, but cost armory energy:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Must still be researched. More armories = more energy.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Healing at an armory costs energy.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Marine weapon upgrades are no longer flat damage upgrades, they allow marines to purchase weapon customizations:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Each level of upgrades the commander researches allows the marines to equip more upgrades per weapon.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Marine weapons all have 3 customizations available:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Examples would be an extended clip size, enhanced accuracy, reduced shotgun fall-off, armor piercing, incendiary effect, etc. The commander would need to research weapons 3 for marines to be able to equip all three upgrades on a weapon. </li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b> Customizations cost p.res:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> They are bought at the armory at the same time the weapon is purchased. 3 customizations is very expensive, 2 is moderately expensive, 1 is semi-trivial. A weapon purchased without upgrades is free. Customizations must be bought with each new weapon, and also must be bought to “switch†on a currently equipped weapon. Weapons cost the same amount of armory energy regardless of how customized they are. Weapons dropped near the armory are auto-recycled back into energy, but the p.res is lost.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Tweak balance numbers for subdued damage progression from marine weapons:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> This might be fewer changes than you think.</li><li><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>Armor customizations:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> You can just go wild here... auto medpack every 60 seconds, puncture resistance, re-breather, whatever you think will allow the marines to become a more tactical tool for the commander to wield.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>This takes away from the core "RTS" aspect of NS. The problems with the "energy" resource have been identified pretty clearly in some other threads recently. The game is about getting resources and using them - there's no need to de-emphasize that.</li><li>This puts aggravating gaps in the most fundamental, common tasks of marine players. It doesn't add much in the way of "alien tactics" (since armories are often in protected areas) - it would only serve to make things more annoying for marines.</li><li>How are any of these new mechanics necessary? What problems in the game would they solve? If you continuously add things to a game "just for fun", you end up with a giant unmanageable trashpile.</li><li>This is overcomplicating the idea of "buy a gun, use the gun, repeat" - simple ideas like that are what make NS great. It's easy for new players to understand everything about the grenade launcher in 30 seconds, but they'll spend the next 300 hours learning how it fits in with everything else in the game. Why should they have to spend 3 hours to realize the basics?</li><li>This is a lot of new ideas to achieve a very simple goal ("more variety") and will be very difficult to balance within the larger context of the game. The armory already offers customizability, just in a very straightforward and easy manner. Why do we need more complexity?</li><li>I don't exactly know what you mean here so I'll leave it alone</li><li>There is already 'armor customisation' as a core NS mechanic. In NS1 you use no armor (free), jetpack (small pres cost), or heavy (large pres cost). In NS2, it will be the same - no armor, jetpack, exosuit. There isn't a need for "more" armor customisation, when we haven't even seen the planned implementation yet.</li></ol>
It's good that you want to help in the design of the game, but that doesn't have to mean adding more ideas. Try to think of ways you can change (or remove) the existing mechanics to achieve the same goals, and you get my vote!
There is also such a thing as too complicated, the base idea worked well for NS1 and I think it could work for NS2 as well with some tweaking. However I do like the idea of wep's costing armoury energy, that seems like it has potential.
It's good that you want to help in the design of the game, but that doesn't have to mean adding more ideas. Try to think of ways you can change (or remove) the existing mechanics to achieve the same goals, and you get my vote!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really couldn't agree more. The idea of having each weapon have multiple variants takes the game to a whole new level that might be fun in a few years, but certainly can't be implemented or researched before the release of the game. I didn't buy NS2 to play a "tactical" shooter in the sense that I need to worry about specific customization of the player beyond a few items like the jetpacks, exosuit, or simple weapon type. The main tactics should be in the team's approach to a specific game rather than the player's approach to a customizable loadout. The question that players should be asking themselves is, "What do I pick that's appropriate for the situation?" as opposed to "What's the endgame loadout that I'm trying to achieve?"
This could boil down for many things, for many people, but for me it boils down to this:
<ol type='1'><li>I've followed this game for a decade.</li><li>I try to play it at least once a night.</li><li>More often than not, I just don't have fun.</li></ol>
I put the emphasis on try. I try to get through at least two rounds because I know that there is a game in here that other people are enjoying (I don't have performance issues, so I can't blame it on that). This could be for a number of reasons, perhaps many of them personal, in terms of my bare expectations from a modern shooter. After a night of shooting hit and run Onos with a rifle/welding bile-bombed structures for another consecutive night, the thought occurred to me that if we didn't need p.res to switch between shoguns and grenade launchers, we might be able to come together as a team and eliminate each threat individually. Thus "weapons don't cost p.res" was born.
The rest, admittedly, is diarrhea of the mind. I really, really want to like this game.
I enjoyed reading all of your ideas and I think they could all add a new dynamic to the game that is missing which would make the game more interesting and entertaining. It could be a little difficult to balance Since Marines are RANGED and Aliens are Melee/hybrid. A good mathematician could probably figure out how to balance all this though.
That being said though I think the aliens would need some more dynamic ideas as well. :)