I've often had scrims where both teams were asking me to merc for them (though that really only shows how desperate they both were :p), or even once where between two rounds I switched teams!
it can be incredibly frustrating to lose to mercs, and I agree that any clan can choose not to fight against teams with mercs, but the only way to fix that would be to increase team sizes. And I for one prefer to play in a team where I get to play every time but needs a few mercs, than have just one european clan that can always field 6 players, but where half the time half the team isn't allowed to play (with the even worse internal politics of "who gets to play").
The european teams atm simply do not have the player strength to field 6 clan people 80% of the time, mostly because people don't like playing certain patches, or are waiting for release or anything like that. And I can really understand not wanting to replace people that are simply taking a break because of patches.
<!--quoteo(post=1925815:date=Apr 16 2012, 03:44 AM:name=-[420]-Papageorgio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-[420]-Papageorgio @ Apr 16 2012, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> All that we are saying is that when a scrim is planned as one team vs the other, that is what we expect. If you can't get all of your players together, we will wait and re-schedule it for another time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you would rather not play at all than play with a team using mercs? That makes no sense to me. What does it matter if they are in the team or not? If they were bad players then you wouldn't care. It's only because you are losing that you come and cry about it. The community is too small and if it isn't an official match in a tournament then I don't see the big deal. Of course, it's up to you guys if you want to play or not, but I expect you'll be playing a lot less if you refuse to play against players better than you. You'll just need to wait until the community is bigger or improve if you want to start winning.
<!--quoteo(post=1925909:date=Apr 16 2012, 02:07 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 16 2012, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, you would rather not play at all than play with a team using mercs? That makes no sense to me. What does it matter if they are in the team or not? If they were bad players then you wouldn't care. It's only because you are losing that you come and cry about it. The community is too small and if it isn't an official match in a tournament then I don't see the big deal. Of course, it's up to you guys if you want to play or not, but I expect you'll be playing a lot less if you refuse to play against players better than you. You'll just need to wait until the community is bigger or improve if you want to start winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about there are also teams who just want to play the occasional game and not get squashed by an unknown quantity that is a random merc. They agreed to play Team X because they know they would have a decent game that way.
It's not an efficient way to improve, granted, but unless they're willing to play a lot more often (which is not always possible due to IRL time constraints or the simple fact that they just don't want to) then telling them they have to accept playing against whoever or they're not welcome in the community is really ###### stupid.
The community is too small to scare away those at the bottom by forcing the way you want to play on them. How would you like it if they just stopped playing and now instead of poor babby you the individual playing slightly less frequently there is one less team around willing to play all together.
They are the teams with so little invested that they can easily transition back to just playing gathers/pubs together and not give a damn about competitive matches. They are the base on which every growing competitive community is built.
You are seriously underestimating how ###### it is to have to your only option being forced to play teams who are significantly more experienced the whole time.
Instead of attempting to bend them to your will, try communicating and meeting somewhere in the middle (e.g. if there is really no other player available have the experienced merc go gorge or commander).
It will pay off in the long run for the health of the community.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
Numbered list, because it makes everything seem very serious!
1. If you want to improve, the best way to do so is to practice as much as possible, against any opponents that are within your skill bracket (it's pointless if your opponent is so much better (or worse) than your team that every round is completely one-sided). From this point of view (maximizing improvement), rejecting opponents because they use ringers/mercs is counter-productive.
2. Each team has the right to choose who they want to or don't want to play against, including not wanting to play against mixed teams. If they don't care about maximizing improvement, it doesn't even necessarily make logical sense for them to allow ringers/mercs. Criticising them for it is pretty silly in any case.
3. Clans placing any sort of value, other than for predictive purposes, on practice match results, is a good indication of a community that's too small to be truly conducive to organized competitive play.
4. Bragging/talking/caring about practice match results, as if they mean anything, is bad form. You haven't achieved anything by winning a practice match, period.
<!--quoteo(post=1925914:date=Apr 16 2012, 04:05 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 16 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are seriously underestimating how ###### it is to have to your only option being forced to play teams who are significantly more experienced the whole time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't, but it's tough luck at the moment with the community being so small. The problem is not that mercs are playing, the problem is good players are often playing competitive matches and lesser skilled teams wish to avoid them. I'm simply saying that with the community being so small you don't really have much choice if you want to play a match. There simply aren't enough teams / players. If they want to pick and choose then they'll probably be playing a lot less matches.
I agree with all your points, Fana, and just to add to this one:
<!--quoteo(post=1925917:date=Apr 16 2012, 03:34 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 16 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Clans placing any sort of value, other than for predictive purposes, on practice match results, is a good indication of a community that's too small to be truly conducive to organized competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet when they're put on display by shoutcasters the simple practice match becomes a showmatch and the stakes are raised. For teams who don't play often it could easily be the choice of having to play a showmatch or not at all (especially when the primary method of organising the game is highly visible i.e. via these forums).
I understand that shoutcasters are invited to the match by both teams, but this can easily put one side into the dilemma of having to accept substitutes on the other team or letting down the shoutcaster and hundreds of spectators, making you look bad either way. We have to be careful not to put teams who play with low frequency into no-win situations or they'll just go play something else because they have so little invested in the competitive community.
I don't mean any offense because I know the casting is done largely for fun and it is deffo a very good (and enjoyable!) thing, but the weight NS2HD carries as a shoutcaster in the community inherently exacerbates this problem. How can you say no to the lovable, official community lead?
It's probably just something to be aware of as the community grows right up until we hit the critical mass of teams needed so that nobody has to play outside of their skill-bracket.
Basically, look at the issue from the point of view that courting the low-experience, low-frequency players who show interest is more important to the growth and health of a competitive scene than enforcing top-down prescriptive my-way-or-the-high-way community traditions. If you really have to see it from an objectivist position then investing (sacrificing) a little bit of enjoyment of sheer competition now will yield fantastic returns later.
The atmosphere we foster and how we act now is so important to the future of this community and we have an unequaled opportunity to avoid the mistakes (which I can regretfully say I took part in perpetuating) of the hardcore-only NS1 scene that we shouldn't create an uphill struggle for ourselves before it's even begun.
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1925920:date=Apr 16 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 16 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't, but it's tough luck at the moment with the community being so small. The problem is not that mercs are playing, the problem is good players are often playing competitive matches and lesser skilled teams wish to avoid them. I'm simply saying that with the community being so small you don't really have much choice if you want to play a match. There simply aren't enough teams / players. If they want to pick and choose then they'll probably be playing a lot less matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Organising games in advance is meant to circumvent having to play the guys who are available literally all the time. Don't take that away from these teams under the excuse of the scene being too small. What is more important: encouraging new teams or playing slightly more frequently? I understand that the top players demand a higher frequency of games but (now it's my turn to use it as an excuse) it's just something they're going to have to put up with until the community is of a more robust size.
At the end of the day it comes down to communicating openly with each other and for the higher tier teams to sometimes accept that 1) they may not be welcome and they have no entitlement to play whoever they wish, 2) it's better for the higher skilled players to adhere to the demands of the lower tier players and 3) if there really are no other options available (such as being shoutcasted or whatever), agree to skill-cap yourself in a support role.
Furthermore, if the issue lies with there being literally no other teams of the same experience level then the issue is obviously a lack of public -> organised transitions. How can this be addressed? <ul><li>Official backing (and publicising) of gather systems</li><li>High skilled or high profile patronage of said gather systems to promote player mixing</li><li>"Farmteams" leading to open knowledge sharing between experienced and new players</li><li>Creating a basic framework on these forums for players to congregate into new teams (with some sort of sticky guide of the basics of where to find opponents and some basic strats)</li><li>Sharing the use of private servers for new teams to play on</li><li>Not acting like exploiting elitist loudmouthed idiots on public servers</li><li>Draft tournaments</li><li>Frequent micro-tournaments limited to an appropriate skill level</li></ul>
So basically a mix between official backing, ease of entry encouraged by player (and therefore knowledge) mixing and some kind of basic incentive system to stick with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1925921:date=Apr 16 2012, 05:08 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 16 2012, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, look at the issue from the point of view that courting the low-experience, low-frequency players who show interest is more important to the growth and health of a competitive scene than enforcing top-down prescriptive my-way-or-the-high-way community traditions. If you really have to see it from an objectivist position then investing (sacrificing) a little bit of enjoyment of sheer competition now will yield fantastic returns later.
The atmosphere we foster and how we act now is so important to the future of this community and we have an unequaled opportunity to avoid the mistakes (which I can regretfully say I took part in perpetuating) of the hardcore-only NS1 scene that we shouldn't create an uphill struggle for ourselves before it's even begun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you MuYeah. I think many competitive players often forget that they were once noobs playing on publics for the first time. If you really enjoy playing the game then you should want it to be popular and have an accessible competitive community. Often public players will form a team only to get stomped on over and over and then give up because there are no teams around at their skill level. I definitely think this is a problem, but right now in NS2 there isn't much you can do about it with the player base being so small.
MuYeah has the right mind set when it comes to this discussion.
As for Wilson all you seem to think about when a topic like this arises is pride and ego. Please get your head out of your a$$ and try to expand your mind for 2 seconds. I know for some people this is an impossible task, and you just may be one of them.
It has nothing to do with pride or ego and yes we would still be bringing this up if we scheduled matches weeks in advance and they brought in mercs that were way below our skill level.
When we plan the matches, we know the teams and what to expect. We plan it around what players we will have available for that match and the overall skill level of both teams.
You should always want a match to be balanced and interesting. It isn't too exciting to watch a team get completely wrecked because the rounds to follow become a predictable outcome. Thats why in pro sports you don't see a college team going up against a pro team. Why you ask? Maybe because the college team would lose every single time when faced against a team of pros.
As for our team, yes we are still a medium to lower skilled team and when we are constantly playing against literally the best merc/player(s) in ns2 it gets frustrating because it creates an unrealistic scenario. The best player(s) can't be on every team and play in every match because they are only one person, one entity. So how are we supposed to know where we really stand as a team?
Stop using the community is too small excuse. Thousands of people play NS2 and it only take 12 players to get a competitive match going.
Like MuYeah said, it really is a big turn off to see the way that certain people react to a thread like this. It makes the competitive community look insensitive with a huge lack of empathy for other teams and players. The key word here is empathy. If you were in our shoes, I would like to think that you would be frustrated as well. If that is not the case then I am playing the wrong game with the wrong group of players and I will gladly focus my efforts elsewhere.
<!--quoteo(post=1925927:date=Apr 16 2012, 06:03 PM:name=-[420]-Papageorgio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-[420]-Papageorgio @ Apr 16 2012, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It has nothing to do with pride or ego and yes we would still be bringing this up if we scheduled matches weeks in advance and they brought in mercs that were way below our skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt it. At least be honest and say that you don't want to play against certain players because they are too good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop using the community is too small excuse. Thousands of people play NS2 and it only take 12 players to get a competitive match going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the truth. Until there are more players and teams then you will be pretty limited to who you play against in a match.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like MuYeah said, it really is a big turn off to see the way that certain people react to a thread like this. It makes the competitive community look insensitive with a huge lack of empathy for other teams and players. The key word here is empathy. If you were in our shoes, I would like to think that you would be frustrated as well. If that is not the case then I am playing the wrong game with the wrong group of players and I will gladly focus my efforts elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even part of the competitive community. I'm just a guy posting my opinion. Don't get so worked up about it. I'm sure there will be more teams and players in the coming months.
<!--quoteo(post=1925938:date=Apr 16 2012, 12:43 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Apr 16 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So Wilson why do you have a point in this thread then ... ? Seems like a troll stirring the pot....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think anybody with an objective view can tell that's what is going on here.
Just for the sake of completeness, though, I'd like to repeat that we at -[420]- have no problem at all playing high-skill teams or players who straight up outperform us. We enjoy the challenge of a good match, and even when we get pasted, it's an opportunity to learn and grow as a group. What we do take issue with is playing these same handful of people every match regardless of who we're actually scheduled to fight.
I think some people are missing the point, entirely, so I'm going to post my opinion on the issue so that nobody misunderstands.
It isn't about this or any particular scrim. It isn't about these or any particular clans/teams. I hope nobody was offended by the OP; I don't think anyone has any hard feelings towards any players or teams.
The problem is not that people need to get ringers every now and then. We all know things come up at the last minute and scheduling can be hard; kids get sick, work calls, whatever. I don't mind grabbing ringers when something comes up and someone couldn't show or has to leave. I don't think anyone is saying there should never be ringers or it's unacceptable and we're going to cancel a scrim with 11 people in the server ready the play because a team had to grab a ringer. That's not the issue.
The problem is that ALMOST EVERY scrim we've played lately has 2 ringers. When 1/3 of the opposing team is ringers 75% of the time, we might as well just stop scheduling scrims and get impromptu games together and/or play on Gathers. It's an incredibly common occurrence, and I think the frequency of it is the crux of the issue.
That's why calling attention to this to a wide audience is a good idea. We aren't going to cancel scrims when there's 10 people in-game ready to play or there's a bunch of people watching the cast; at that point we just play on. To say "don't play them if you don't like who's in the game" is literally the worst possible solution. It's a bad solution for our players, their players, and NS2 in general if the game is being cast. We also don't want to tell teams we won't play them if they have to get a ringer because we all know sometimes ringers are necessary and we understand that.
I think the point that is trying to be made is that teams should try harder to get their actual members in, especially if the scrim is scheduled well in advance. We are also letting people know that we are flexible and willing to reschedule, which I think is important for people to know. A team might feel obligated to start a scrim on the agreed time so they grab ringers rather than start an hour later or reschedule for the next day. We are putting it out there that if there is a better time for teams when more of their members will be able to participate we are happy to work with them to make that happen.
I honestly appreciate the opportunity to play a more skilled team and get beat (sometimes I worry about the opposite - that good teams might be bored playing a lower skill team), I'd just like to get beat that THAT team. There's nothing wrong with pick-up games, either, but we aren't scheduling a week in advance to play a pick-up game.
I hope none of the teams we scrim against took offense to the thread (especially the ones pictured), we enjoy playing all of you :)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1925921:date=Apr 16 2012, 08:08 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 16 2012, 08:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet when they're put on display by shoutcasters the simple practice match becomes a showmatch and the stakes are raised. For teams who don't play often it could easily be the choice of having to play a showmatch or not at all (especially when the primary method of organising the game is highly visible i.e. via these forums).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MuYeah you have impressed me. Every post of yours in this thread is exactly on the mark - i recommend everyone read them. Exactly the sort of mentality I'd encourage the NS2 community to embody. The fact that Hugh will be getting his live stream posted on the front page of twitch tv will only further this point. Its sorta hard to call it "practice" when potentially thousands of people can see your clan name lose.
Like everyone said: this is just a change in policy for our clan, we will have to make sure that this sort of thing is settled up front ahead of time. I like the "1 ringer max" rule, and if so they are gorge or commander - regardless of skill. <i>This is a good compromise i believe.</i> Anything more is 33% not your clan, and that just seems silly to get a win that way - i personally wouldn't feel as if it was our clan's win if that happened.
Thanks everyone for remaining civil in a potentially inflammatory thread.
Its not like i dont understand 420 point, but counting the many games that were cast in the past with ringers in almost all teams...
I think it shouldnt just be a fixed rule just yet (i mean we can do it but it would mean a lot less casts for ns2hd until the competitive community grows a lot bigger or sort out their member problems), its something clans have to talk about individually for now before scheduling a match, and to make sure both team accept the other teams ringers - otherwise dont accept to play.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
It should be common etiquette to not ask a ringer to play for your team when you know they are going to be better than every player that's actually in your clan. The ringer is there to fill a spot, not carry your team.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
Ringers are required because there is no active competitive scene.
The competitive community is tiny and inactive, because there is no reason to be otherwise. The game is still in a bad state (performance and balance wise). On top of this there is nothing to aim for, no tournaments and no good clans.
Whether you are casted or not, its still an amateur match in a badly performing and unbalanced game. Trying to pretend it is <b>serious</b> might make you feel good, but doesnt change the facts.
Until we have decent performance, balance, leagues and tournaments the competitive scene matches will be meaningless. Getting egos about winning (or worrying about losing) at this stage is crazy.
<!--quoteo(post=1925948:date=Apr 16 2012, 10:26 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 16 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think anybody with an objective view can tell that's what is going on here.
Just for the sake of completeness, though, I'd like to repeat that we at -[420]- have no problem at all playing high-skill teams or players who straight up outperform us. We enjoy the challenge of a good match, and even when we get pasted, it's an opportunity to learn and grow as a group. What we do take issue with is playing these same handful of people every match regardless of who we're actually scheduled to fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lesson to learn is that you lost because your opponents had better computers. They don't have any practical knowledge of this game that you don't.
The game itself and your attitude are the culprits, not who you play against. Do what you can to address one or the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1926657:date=Apr 18 2012, 01:40 AM:name=hampton)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hampton @ Apr 18 2012, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lesson to learn is that you lost because your opponents had better computers. They don't have any practical knowledge of this game that you don't.
The game itself and your attitude are the culprits, not who you play against. Do what you can to address one or the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have an amazing computer that almost never drops under 60fps (though in the last few builds it has started happening every couple of games), and I can't aim for crap. Believe me when I say that it isn't hard to be more skilled at aiming than I am. Believe me also when I say that I have no problem playing against players so good I have to keep telling myself they don't aimbot; it's a chance to try new tactics, new ways to dodge, new distractions, in an environment that truly doesn't take half-assed screw ups sitting down.
Playing the exact same amazing shot/shots in five different games against what were supposed to be five different teams though, does start to get old as it happens more and more. There's only so many times I can work on my dodging before I start wanting to play against players who require different tactics, and it really does kind of invalidate all the pre-match work you might go through to change your style and tactics for each team.
<!--quoteo(post=1925956:date=Apr 16 2012, 11:53 AM:name=Synsless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Synsless @ Apr 16 2012, 11:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that ALMOST EVERY scrim we've played lately has 2 ringers. When 1/3 of the opposing team is ringers 75% of the time, we might as well just stop scheduling scrims and get impromptu games together and/or play on Gathers. It's an incredibly common occurrence, and I think the frequency of it is the crux of the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I watched the live casts over the weekend. And, when I saw 420's reluctance to play against a team with a ringer, I thought, what's the big deal? As the commenters mentioned, it's not like it's a tournament or some sort of "real" game.
But upon more reflection, I'll echo that live casting with commentators and spectators, along with archived videos, does make it more of a game with a little more stakes... it's something from experience having played competitively numerous games/sports -- either online, such as NS1, TF2, CS... or real-life, such as basketball, volleyball, and hockey. Team names do get put on the line a little bit more. Reputation and memories get formed. It's only natural.
So, we can argue all day about who's right or wrong, but I think everyone realizes it is an issue, whether you think it's minor or major. But so far, only 2 solutions have really only been presented:
1) Don't play the match 2) Restrict said ringer to a particular position
Both are really good possible solutions. But I don't think they really address the root of the problem(s).
So, I will add more solutions for you all to consider as we continue this discussion. :)
A) Increase Roster
Why do people get ringers? People get sick, can't make it, last minute emergencies, etc. All very valid... and *good* reasons.
But why not be more active in recruiting and increasing your roster so you do have more people to call on that can be considered more from your own team? I mean, almost all sports teams have benches that are at least double what they have on the floor. Injuries happen, suspensions happen, players just are off and aren't playing well, etc.... and that is when you go to your bench.
I am sure there are many people messaging teams/leaders that they want to join. Or I see all these team members play in pubs... do they not see familiar "faces"/names of those who aren't actively on teams yet...because I know I do. Why aren't these teams actively trying to increase their roster by actually recruiting? Is it not possible to carry a roster of 10 or more players?
I see things like you have to try-out. Fair enough. But what if they don't have the skill? I will, perhaps wrongly, guess that some teams will feel a particular individual may not be good, and thus not worthy to be on the team. But we were all "not good" at one point in time. But here's your chance to help someone get better. And who knows... the student may surpass the teacher! ;)
And guess what... doing so helps to <b>GROW the NS2 player base. </b> There'll be more active and "educated" players! Which is what we all want, right?! Or at least, that's what I seem to keep hearing everyone say. People say there is no active competitive scene? Or it's too small? Well, help grow it! Teams do have the power to do so, do they not?
B) "Super" Gather
If a team must take a ringer or two, why not have everyone take off their tags and mix-up the teams, and have a super competitive gather. You'll have 12 very good competitive players on the team. I can still learn from watching 12 good players play "competitively", even if it's a mixed team... and I'm sure it will still be exciting to watch. And teams can benefit from learning from each other... sharing of knowledge if you will. Which will only make competitive play even better as strategies and tactics become more efficient.
If the object is to "just play" and it really isn't a big deal, as I keep hearing many people say, then <b>mixing it up fulfills the objective. </b> Otherwise, it is a big deal, and that only serves to reinforce the idea that there is indeed a little more "at stake" and that team reputations are on the line, even if it isn't a "tournament" or something like that. ;)
Anyhow, just some thoughts. Be gentle. I am just throwing more solutions out to help brainstorm this issue. :) Good games this past weekend folks. I quite enjoyed them.
^ good thoughts. Randomizing teams can sort of mess up a group's strategies and cohesion, but it's an option if people really want to have a match at that moment.
We caught a lot of flak for asking ringers to go Com/Gorge this weekend, but it hasn't changed our stance. We didn't make that decision because we had anything against our opponents or the people they brought in, we made it because we believe in these policies. Plus, it led to some amazing and entertaining experiences with Hugh, so everything worked itself out. ^.^
Now it's not my place to enter this debate, but I have a humble request: Please, if you are live on a stream on the official Natural Selection 2 twitch page with hundreds of people watching, put the ringer debates aside until you are off the stream.
What about trial players(e.g. hbz had 3)? They are not really that much different to ringers in some way... if its all about real clan vs. clan policy.
Sometimes you might have well known badass players as trials that might want to switch from another teams into yours. (since it kinda seems like it matters to some more who the player is and less the fact that it is a merc/trial whatever - just because someone is on trial doesnt also mean that he will join the team, he might change his decision and try another or go back to his old team etc.)
So in theory you cant accept to play against teams with trials either?
This issue isn't so much trial members or ringers in general, just simply ringers that are invited with the intent to tip the skill level in favor of one team. Now that brings up the issue of if that was the intent of the opposing team to do in the first place. Maybe they are just good friends with player "X". So where and how do you draw the line? Simple answer would be to ask permission from both teams and agree with ringer before game start. Now in regards to Sunday, we got hit with it 5 mins before game start and the decision had to be made on the spot and kinda made us look like the bad guys. Is the juice worth the squeeze, ya know?
I personally just like to play and have fun but its not just about me.
It was flipping awesome laughing at Hugh last night watching him play. Nothing like -[420]-Moo Jr Bites Strayan (NS2HD) popping up right after he gets all excited about having a "flamer".
<!--quoteo(post=1932075:date=May 1 2012, 11:42 AM:name=MooJr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MooJr @ May 1 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was flipping awesome laughing at Hugh last night watching him play. Nothing like -[420]-Moo Jr Bites Strayan (NS2HD) popping up right after he gets all excited about having a "flamer".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moo Jr you've got big talk but I remember who got the first kill ;)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1932075:date=May 1 2012, 02:42 AM:name=MooJr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MooJr @ May 1 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This issue isn't so much trial members or ringers in general, just simply ringers that are invited with the intent to tip the skill level in favor of one team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had Koruyo and Hackepeter from ARC as ringers,ok. If you think we ask them cause we need a better skilllevel, you are totally wrong. believe me.
And please stop your discussion in an live-stream as hugh suggestet in the future. This is/was not a tournament, its just for practice and having fun and maybe to present the own clan.
IMO if it's stream it's just as close as a match. It's live and it mean's something. If you can't farm a solid 6 find them. You EU teams gotta start keeping up with the NA teams with you're rosters. It's getting old. Or just combine you're teams.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I saw ALL-IN players as mercs these days. So, playing as merc for another team is ok for you, but to play against a team with mercs not? This is a kind of double moral.
<!--quoteo(post=1931921:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 30 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now it's not my place to enter this debate, but I have a humble request: Please, if you are live on a stream on the official Natural Selection 2 twitch page with hundreds of people watching, put the ringer debates aside until you are off the stream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.
Curiously, it was that debate led you to be the ringer which was THE BEST solution! Best match of the day BY FAR.
Comments
it can be incredibly frustrating to lose to mercs, and I agree that any clan can choose not to fight against teams with mercs, but the only way to fix that would be to increase team sizes. And I for one prefer to play in a team where I get to play every time but needs a few mercs, than have just one european clan that can always field 6 players, but where half the time half the team isn't allowed to play (with the even worse internal politics of "who gets to play").
The european teams atm simply do not have the player strength to field 6 clan people 80% of the time, mostly because people don't like playing certain patches, or are waiting for release or anything like that. And I can really understand not wanting to replace people that are simply taking a break because of patches.
All that we are saying is that when a scrim is planned as one team vs the other, that is what we expect. If you can't get all of your players together, we will wait and re-schedule it for another time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you would rather not play at all than play with a team using mercs? That makes no sense to me. What does it matter if they are in the team or not? If they were bad players then you wouldn't care. It's only because you are losing that you come and cry about it. The community is too small and if it isn't an official match in a tournament then I don't see the big deal. Of course, it's up to you guys if you want to play or not, but I expect you'll be playing a lot less if you refuse to play against players better than you. You'll just need to wait until the community is bigger or improve if you want to start winning.
How about there are also teams who just want to play the occasional game and not get squashed by an unknown quantity that is a random merc. They agreed to play Team X because they know they would have a decent game that way.
It's not an efficient way to improve, granted, but unless they're willing to play a lot more often (which is not always possible due to IRL time constraints or the simple fact that they just don't want to) then telling them they have to accept playing against whoever or they're not welcome in the community is really ###### stupid.
The community is too small to scare away those at the bottom by forcing the way you want to play on them. How would you like it if they just stopped playing and now instead of poor babby you the individual playing slightly less frequently there is one less team around willing to play all together.
They are the teams with so little invested that they can easily transition back to just playing gathers/pubs together and not give a damn about competitive matches. They are the base on which every growing competitive community is built.
You are seriously underestimating how ###### it is to have to your only option being forced to play teams who are significantly more experienced the whole time.
Instead of attempting to bend them to your will, try communicating and meeting somewhere in the middle (e.g. if there is really no other player available have the experienced merc go gorge or commander).
It will pay off in the long run for the health of the community.
1. If you want to improve, the best way to do so is to practice as much as possible, against any opponents that are within your skill bracket (it's pointless if your opponent is so much better (or worse) than your team that every round is completely one-sided). From this point of view (maximizing improvement), rejecting opponents because they use ringers/mercs is counter-productive.
2. Each team has the right to choose who they want to or don't want to play against, including not wanting to play against mixed teams. If they don't care about maximizing improvement, it doesn't even necessarily make logical sense for them to allow ringers/mercs. Criticising them for it is pretty silly in any case.
3. Clans placing any sort of value, other than for predictive purposes, on practice match results, is a good indication of a community that's too small to be truly conducive to organized competitive play.
4. Bragging/talking/caring about practice match results, as if they mean anything, is bad form. You haven't achieved anything by winning a practice match, period.
I don't, but it's tough luck at the moment with the community being so small. The problem is not that mercs are playing, the problem is good players are often playing competitive matches and lesser skilled teams wish to avoid them. I'm simply saying that with the community being so small you don't really have much choice if you want to play a match. There simply aren't enough teams / players. If they want to pick and choose then they'll probably be playing a lot less matches.
<!--quoteo(post=1925917:date=Apr 16 2012, 03:34 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 16 2012, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Clans placing any sort of value, other than for predictive purposes, on practice match results, is a good indication of a community that's too small to be truly conducive to organized competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet when they're put on display by shoutcasters the simple practice match becomes a showmatch and the stakes are raised. For teams who don't play often it could easily be the choice of having to play a showmatch or not at all (especially when the primary method of organising the game is highly visible i.e. via these forums).
I understand that shoutcasters are invited to the match by both teams, but this can easily put one side into the dilemma of having to accept substitutes on the other team or letting down the shoutcaster and hundreds of spectators, making you look bad either way. We have to be careful not to put teams who play with low frequency into no-win situations or they'll just go play something else because they have so little invested in the competitive community.
I don't mean any offense because I know the casting is done largely for fun and it is deffo a very good (and enjoyable!) thing, but the weight NS2HD carries as a shoutcaster in the community inherently exacerbates this problem. How can you say no to the lovable, official community lead?
It's probably just something to be aware of as the community grows right up until we hit the critical mass of teams needed so that nobody has to play outside of their skill-bracket.
Basically, look at the issue from the point of view that courting the low-experience, low-frequency players who show interest is more important to the growth and health of a competitive scene than enforcing top-down prescriptive my-way-or-the-high-way community traditions. If you really have to see it from an objectivist position then investing (sacrificing) a little bit of enjoyment of sheer competition now will yield fantastic returns later.
The atmosphere we foster and how we act now is so important to the future of this community and we have an unequaled opportunity to avoid the mistakes (which I can regretfully say I took part in perpetuating) of the hardcore-only NS1 scene that we shouldn't create an uphill struggle for ourselves before it's even begun.
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1925920:date=Apr 16 2012, 04:07 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 16 2012, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't, but it's tough luck at the moment with the community being so small. The problem is not that mercs are playing, the problem is good players are often playing competitive matches and lesser skilled teams wish to avoid them. I'm simply saying that with the community being so small you don't really have much choice if you want to play a match. There simply aren't enough teams / players. If they want to pick and choose then they'll probably be playing a lot less matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Organising games in advance is meant to circumvent having to play the guys who are available literally all the time. Don't take that away from these teams under the excuse of the scene being too small. What is more important: encouraging new teams or playing slightly more frequently? I understand that the top players demand a higher frequency of games but (now it's my turn to use it as an excuse) it's just something they're going to have to put up with until the community is of a more robust size.
At the end of the day it comes down to communicating openly with each other and for the higher tier teams to sometimes accept that 1) they may not be welcome and they have no entitlement to play whoever they wish, 2) it's better for the higher skilled players to adhere to the demands of the lower tier players and 3) if there really are no other options available (such as being shoutcasted or whatever), agree to skill-cap yourself in a support role.
Furthermore, if the issue lies with there being literally no other teams of the same experience level then the issue is obviously a lack of public -> organised transitions. How can this be addressed? <ul><li>Official backing (and publicising) of gather systems</li><li>High skilled or high profile patronage of said gather systems to promote player mixing</li><li>"Farmteams" leading to open knowledge sharing between experienced and new players</li><li>Creating a basic framework on these forums for players to congregate into new teams (with some sort of sticky guide of the basics of where to find opponents and some basic strats)</li><li>Sharing the use of private servers for new teams to play on</li><li>Not acting like exploiting elitist loudmouthed idiots on public servers</li><li>Draft tournaments</li><li>Frequent micro-tournaments limited to an appropriate skill level</li></ul>
So basically a mix between official backing, ease of entry encouraged by player (and therefore knowledge) mixing and some kind of basic incentive system to stick with it.
The atmosphere we foster and how we act now is so important to the future of this community and we have an unequaled opportunity to avoid the mistakes (which I can regretfully say I took part in perpetuating) of the hardcore-only NS1 scene that we shouldn't create an uphill struggle for ourselves before it's even begun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with you MuYeah. I think many competitive players often forget that they were once noobs playing on publics for the first time. If you really enjoy playing the game then you should want it to be popular and have an accessible competitive community. Often public players will form a team only to get stomped on over and over and then give up because there are no teams around at their skill level. I definitely think this is a problem, but right now in NS2 there isn't much you can do about it with the player base being so small.
As for Wilson all you seem to think about when a topic like this arises is pride and ego. Please get your head out of your a$$ and try to expand your mind for 2 seconds. I know for some people this is an impossible task, and you just may be one of them.
It has nothing to do with pride or ego and yes we would still be bringing this up if we scheduled matches weeks in advance and they brought in mercs that were way below our skill level.
When we plan the matches, we know the teams and what to expect. We plan it around what players we will have available for that match and the overall skill level of both teams.
You should always want a match to be balanced and interesting. It isn't too exciting to watch a team get completely wrecked because the rounds to follow become a predictable outcome. Thats why in pro sports you don't see a college team going up against a pro team. Why you ask? Maybe because the college team would lose every single time when faced against a team of pros.
As for our team, yes we are still a medium to lower skilled team and when we are constantly playing against literally the best merc/player(s) in ns2 it gets frustrating because it creates an unrealistic scenario. The best player(s) can't be on every team and play in every match because they are only one person, one entity. So how are we supposed to know where we really stand as a team?
Stop using the community is too small excuse. Thousands of people play NS2 and it only take 12 players to get a competitive match going.
Like MuYeah said, it really is a big turn off to see the way that certain people react to a thread like this. It makes the competitive community look insensitive with a huge lack of empathy for other teams and players. The key word here is empathy. If you were in our shoes, I would like to think that you would be frustrated as well. If that is not the case then I am playing the wrong game with the wrong group of players and I will gladly focus my efforts elsewhere.
It has nothing to do with pride or ego and yes we would still be bringing this up if we scheduled matches weeks in advance and they brought in mercs that were way below our skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt it. At least be honest and say that you don't want to play against certain players because they are too good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop using the community is too small excuse. Thousands of people play NS2 and it only take 12 players to get a competitive match going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the truth. Until there are more players and teams then you will be pretty limited to who you play against in a match.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like MuYeah said, it really is a big turn off to see the way that certain people react to a thread like this. It makes the competitive community look insensitive with a huge lack of empathy for other teams and players. The key word here is empathy. If you were in our shoes, I would like to think that you would be frustrated as well. If that is not the case then I am playing the wrong game with the wrong group of players and I will gladly focus my efforts elsewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even part of the competitive community. I'm just a guy posting my opinion. Don't get so worked up about it. I'm sure there will be more teams and players in the coming months.
I think anybody with an objective view can tell that's what is going on here.
Just for the sake of completeness, though, I'd like to repeat that we at -[420]- have no problem at all playing high-skill teams or players who straight up outperform us. We enjoy the challenge of a good match, and even when we get pasted, it's an opportunity to learn and grow as a group. What we do take issue with is playing these same handful of people every match regardless of who we're actually scheduled to fight.
It isn't about this or any particular scrim. It isn't about these or any particular clans/teams. I hope nobody was offended by the OP; I don't think anyone has any hard feelings towards any players or teams.
The problem is not that people need to get ringers every now and then. We all know things come up at the last minute and scheduling can be hard; kids get sick, work calls, whatever. I don't mind grabbing ringers when something comes up and someone couldn't show or has to leave. I don't think anyone is saying there should never be ringers or it's unacceptable and we're going to cancel a scrim with 11 people in the server ready the play because a team had to grab a ringer. That's not the issue.
The problem is that ALMOST EVERY scrim we've played lately has 2 ringers. When 1/3 of the opposing team is ringers 75% of the time, we might as well just stop scheduling scrims and get impromptu games together and/or play on Gathers. It's an incredibly common occurrence, and I think the frequency of it is the crux of the issue.
That's why calling attention to this to a wide audience is a good idea. We aren't going to cancel scrims when there's 10 people in-game ready to play or there's a bunch of people watching the cast; at that point we just play on. To say "don't play them if you don't like who's in the game" is literally the worst possible solution. It's a bad solution for our players, their players, and NS2 in general if the game is being cast. We also don't want to tell teams we won't play them if they have to get a ringer because we all know sometimes ringers are necessary and we understand that.
I think the point that is trying to be made is that teams should try harder to get their actual members in, especially if the scrim is scheduled well in advance. We are also letting people know that we are flexible and willing to reschedule, which I think is important for people to know. A team might feel obligated to start a scrim on the agreed time so they grab ringers rather than start an hour later or reschedule for the next day. We are putting it out there that if there is a better time for teams when more of their members will be able to participate we are happy to work with them to make that happen.
I honestly appreciate the opportunity to play a more skilled team and get beat (sometimes I worry about the opposite - that good teams might be bored playing a lower skill team), I'd just like to get beat that THAT team. There's nothing wrong with pick-up games, either, but we aren't scheduling a week in advance to play a pick-up game.
I hope none of the teams we scrim against took offense to the thread (especially the ones pictured), we enjoy playing all of you :)
MuYeah you have impressed me. Every post of yours in this thread is exactly on the mark - i recommend everyone read them. Exactly the sort of mentality I'd encourage the NS2 community to embody.
The fact that Hugh will be getting his live stream posted on the front page of twitch tv will only further this point. Its sorta hard to call it "practice" when potentially thousands of people can see your clan name lose.
Like everyone said: this is just a change in policy for our clan, we will have to make sure that this sort of thing is settled up front ahead of time. I like the "1 ringer max" rule, and if so they are gorge or commander - regardless of skill. <i>This is a good compromise i believe.</i> Anything more is 33% not your clan, and that just seems silly to get a win that way - i personally wouldn't feel as if it was our clan's win if that happened.
Thanks everyone for remaining civil in a potentially inflammatory thread.
I think it shouldnt just be a fixed rule just yet (i mean we can do it but it would mean a lot less casts for ns2hd until the competitive community grows a lot bigger or sort out their member problems), its something clans have to talk about individually for now before scheduling a match, and to make sure both team accept the other teams ringers - otherwise dont accept to play.
But we are working on solving member problems(guess other clans too) to not have to rely on ringers in the future. (so no drama needed)
PS: I like trains<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRHmvy5eaG4&feature=related" target="_blank">!</a>
The competitive community is tiny and inactive, because there is no reason to be otherwise. The game is still in a bad state (performance and balance wise). On top of this there is nothing to aim for, no tournaments and no good clans.
Whether you are casted or not, its still an amateur match in a badly performing and unbalanced game. Trying to pretend it is <b>serious</b> might make you feel good, but doesnt change the facts.
Until we have decent performance, balance, leagues and tournaments the competitive scene matches will be meaningless. Getting egos about winning (or worrying about losing) at this stage is crazy.
Just for the sake of completeness, though, I'd like to repeat that we at -[420]- have no problem at all playing high-skill teams or players who straight up outperform us. We enjoy the challenge of a good match, and even when we get pasted, it's an opportunity to learn and grow as a group. What we do take issue with is playing these same handful of people every match regardless of who we're actually scheduled to fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lesson to learn is that you lost because your opponents had better computers. They don't have any practical knowledge of this game that you don't.
The game itself and your attitude are the culprits, not who you play against. Do what you can to address one or the other.
The game itself and your attitude are the culprits, not who you play against. Do what you can to address one or the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have an amazing computer that almost never drops under 60fps (though in the last few builds it has started happening every couple of games), and I can't aim for crap. Believe me when I say that it isn't hard to be more skilled at aiming than I am. Believe me also when I say that I have no problem playing against players so good I have to keep telling myself they don't aimbot; it's a chance to try new tactics, new ways to dodge, new distractions, in an environment that truly doesn't take half-assed screw ups sitting down.
Playing the exact same amazing shot/shots in five different games against what were supposed to be five different teams though, does start to get old as it happens more and more. There's only so many times I can work on my dodging before I start wanting to play against players who require different tactics, and it really does kind of invalidate all the pre-match work you might go through to change your style and tactics for each team.
I watched the live casts over the weekend. And, when I saw 420's reluctance to play against a team with a ringer, I thought, what's the big deal? As the commenters mentioned, it's not like it's a tournament or some sort of "real" game.
But upon more reflection, I'll echo that live casting with commentators and spectators, along with archived videos, does make it more of a game with a little more stakes... it's something from experience having played competitively numerous games/sports -- either online, such as NS1, TF2, CS... or real-life, such as basketball, volleyball, and hockey. Team names do get put on the line a little bit more. Reputation and memories get formed. It's only natural.
So, we can argue all day about who's right or wrong, but I think everyone realizes it is an issue, whether you think it's minor or major. But so far, only 2 solutions have really only been presented:
1) Don't play the match
2) Restrict said ringer to a particular position
Both are really good possible solutions. But I don't think they really address the root of the problem(s).
So, I will add more solutions for you all to consider as we continue this discussion. :)
A) Increase Roster
Why do people get ringers? People get sick, can't make it, last minute emergencies, etc. All very valid... and *good* reasons.
But why not be more active in recruiting and increasing your roster so you do have more people to call on that can be considered more from your own team? I mean, almost all sports teams have benches that are at least double what they have on the floor. Injuries happen, suspensions happen, players just are off and aren't playing well, etc.... and that is when you go to your bench.
I am sure there are many people messaging teams/leaders that they want to join. Or I see all these team members play in pubs... do they not see familiar "faces"/names of those who aren't actively on teams yet...because I know I do. Why aren't these teams actively trying to increase their roster by actually recruiting? Is it not possible to carry a roster of 10 or more players?
I see things like you have to try-out. Fair enough. But what if they don't have the skill? I will, perhaps wrongly, guess that some teams will feel a particular individual may not be good, and thus not worthy to be on the team. But we were all "not good" at one point in time. But here's your chance to help someone get better. And who knows... the student may surpass the teacher! ;)
And guess what... doing so helps to <b>GROW the NS2 player base. </b> There'll be more active and "educated" players! Which is what we all want, right?! Or at least, that's what I seem to keep hearing everyone say. People say there is no active competitive scene? Or it's too small? Well, help grow it! Teams do have the power to do so, do they not?
B) "Super" Gather
If a team must take a ringer or two, why not have everyone take off their tags and mix-up the teams, and have a super competitive gather. You'll have 12 very good competitive players on the team. I can still learn from watching 12 good players play "competitively", even if it's a mixed team... and I'm sure it will still be exciting to watch. And teams can benefit from learning from each other... sharing of knowledge if you will. Which will only make competitive play even better as strategies and tactics become more efficient.
If the object is to "just play" and it really isn't a big deal, as I keep hearing many people say, then <b>mixing it up fulfills the objective. </b> Otherwise, it is a big deal, and that only serves to reinforce the idea that there is indeed a little more "at stake" and that team reputations are on the line, even if it isn't a "tournament" or something like that. ;)
Anyhow, just some thoughts. Be gentle. I am just throwing more solutions out to help brainstorm this issue. :) Good games this past weekend folks. I quite enjoyed them.
We caught a lot of flak for asking ringers to go Com/Gorge this weekend, but it hasn't changed our stance. We didn't make that decision because we had anything against our opponents or the people they brought in, we made it because we believe in these policies. Plus, it led to some amazing and entertaining experiences with Hugh, so everything worked itself out. ^.^
Sometimes you might have well known badass players as trials that might want to switch from another teams into yours. (since it kinda seems like it matters to some more who the player is and less the fact that it is a merc/trial whatever - just because someone is on trial doesnt also mean that he will join the team, he might change his decision and try another or go back to his old team etc.)
So in theory you cant accept to play against teams with trials either?
I personally just like to play and have fun but its not just about me.
It was flipping awesome laughing at Hugh last night watching him play. Nothing like -[420]-Moo Jr Bites Strayan (NS2HD) popping up right after he gets all excited about having a "flamer".
Moo Jr you've got big talk but I remember who got the first kill ;)
*tries to forget final scoreline*
We had Koruyo and Hackepeter from ARC as ringers,ok.
If you think we ask them cause we need a better skilllevel, you are totally wrong. believe me.
And please stop your discussion in an live-stream as hugh suggestet in the future.
This is/was not a tournament, its just for practice and having fun and maybe to present the own clan.
So, playing as merc for another team is ok for you, but to play against a team with mercs not?
This is a kind of double moral.
Absolutely.
Curiously, it was that debate led you to be the ringer which was THE BEST solution! Best match of the day BY FAR.