SintJoin Date: 2007-01-09Member: 59540Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1932163:date=May 1 2012, 01:16 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ May 1 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO if it's stream it's just as close as a match. It's live and it mean's something. If you can't farm a solid 6 find them. You EU teams gotta start keeping up with the NA teams with you're rosters. It's getting old. Or just combine you're teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is not everyone's opinion at least. PCW is PCW and not a tournament match. Scores are kept randomly atm. Forfeiting a stream PCW match without getting enough players would be lot worser than playing with 1-2 mercs even for the audience. If you play with more than two mercs then merc team can't be considered to be a clan and its a mix. Its beta and does not have full player base yet, so mercs in PCWs should be OK. Proper matches should be arranged so that six on the team can play yes. Maybe people are not getting the difference between match and PCW sometimes even and its unclear.
Since everyone is still learning the game because game mechanics change often, rules should be more flexible until beta is over. There is huge difference how much clans even play PCWs during the weeks. Some play 1 game per week and some play 20 games per week. So in time the solid clans should come out of the unsolid ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1932172:date=May 1 2012, 08:12 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 1 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I saw ALL-IN players as mercs these days. So, playing as merc for another team is ok for you, but to play against a team with mercs not? This is a kind of double moral.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who have we been ringing for? That's been on twitch?
So we see DS and ALL-IN form a new Clan soon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good call good call *puts foot in mouth*. Well i can't say much to that. But the EU teams do it alot and that's whats becoming the issue i think.It's becoming the norm. Some team's wanna see how they do, you cant find that out when you play 3 different teams. What is the issue with farming a 6-8 man team? I have 12 i think. Like 10 of them active.
<!--quoteo(post=1932130:date=May 1 2012, 03:44 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 1 2012, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We had Koruyo and Hackepeter from ARC as ringers,ok. If you think we ask them cause we need a better skilllevel, you are totally wrong. believe me.
And please stop your discussion in an live-stream as hugh suggestet in the future. This is/was not a tournament, its just for practice and having fun and maybe to present the own clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didnt mean to say thats why you guys had them there. Only reason it came up was the fact you had ringers after this post was created and our clan leaders didnt know. Just had to start enforcing the policy somewhere and it just happened to be your team first. I enjoy playing no matter what so im glad it did work out. I watched HBZ on the first casts so it was cool playing with you guys now.
<!--quoteo(post=1931921:date=Apr 30 2012, 02:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 30 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now it's not my place to enter this debate, but I have a humble request: Please, if you are live on a stream on the official Natural Selection 2 twitch page with hundreds of people watching, put the ringer debates aside until you are off the stream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please believe me Hugh when I say that hate delays, especially bureaucratic ones, on streams and casts with a passion, even more so with ones that are on our end. Though it led to some fun gameplay on your part, the mid-round delay that match dragged on far too long, and even though I don't feel that our actions were wrong, I would like to apologize to you, if not as a representative, as a player, for the issues that this caused for your cast.
That being said, Moo is right on the money.
<!--quoteo(post=1932075:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:42 PM:name=MooJr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MooJr @ Apr 30 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So where and how do you draw the line? Simple answer would be to ask permission from both teams and agree with ringer before game start. Now in regards to Sunday, we got hit with it 5 mins before game start and the decision had to be made on the spot and kinda made us look like the bad guys. Is the juice worth the squeeze, ya know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we'd been contacted a day or two in advance about the possibility of Koruyo ringing, I don't think anyone would have minded him running combat roles, even if he'd wound up mopping the floor with us afterwards (Not saying for sure whether he would or would not though, that's something to find out on another day). When it was just sprung on us with no warning, however, we did ask they limit their ringer to a non-combat roll, which has been a frequent suggestion in this thread.
I've been saying it for the past few weeks, but I'd like to take the opportunity to say it once again: Talk to us if you think you might have issues getting your team together for a match, please. We are extremely flexible in rescheduling games to meet whatever situations you need for your team to get together. If you need to run a replacement for whatever reason, give us a heads up. Even a quick message 20-30 min before the game gives us time to discuss terms and adjust our strats accordingly; waiting until it's time for the game to kick off before announcing it just leads to delays and confusion. To cut down on lengthy delaying negotiations, our knee-jerk reaction will usually be "1 ringer Com/Gorge" if we have to make a snap decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1931921:date=Apr 30 2012, 02:59 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 30 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now it's not my place to enter this debate, but I have a humble request: Please, if you are live on a stream on the official Natural Selection 2 twitch page with hundreds of people watching, put the ringer debates aside until you are off the stream.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more Hugh, there is a time and place for the ringer issue to be discussed and during a live stream is not one of them. I am still very happy with the way it worked out though and glad we got to play against you Hugh. You did awesome!
As for DePara, by no means were we implying that Kory was going to carry your team. HBZ is a extremely skilled team and you guys have definitely been in the NS2 scene longer than we have, which truly showed in our scrim. We really enjoyed our match against you guys and hope to have many more in the near future.
When it comes down to the ringer issue, it really helps to know other clans and their players. That way when a ringer is put in during a live stream we know who we are up against. As for Kory, I really didn't have a problem with him ringing. That is why you didn't hear much out of me when the subject came up. If I do have a problem with a ringer and I think the match should be rescheduled or that the ringer should play a designated roll, I will say so. The key word here is "I" will say so and I'll make sure that the rest of our krew understands that.
I wanted to say thanks again to all of the teams and casters who made last week happen. You all rock and I am proud to be apart of the NS2 community and be able to play with such a great group of people.
<!--quoteo(post=1932163:date=May 1 2012, 03:16 AM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ May 1 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932163"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO if it's stream it's just as close as a match. It's live and it mean's something. If you can't farm a solid 6 find them. You EU teams gotta start keeping up with the NA teams with you're rosters. It's getting old. Or just combine you're teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am glad 420 is taking a stand on this. I think in order to really solve it, something has to be put in place, otherwise the issue just keeps coming up over and over and over again. Is it really that hard to have no ringers? I don't really know... I'm not currently on any team... the last team I was on was in NS1... so maybe the state of affairs at the moment is different. But hey, we just found players we liked on pubs (e.g. team players, eager to learn, etc.) or had players message us, and we took the time to train them. There are people who will work hard to be a team player and will steadily improve when joining a team.
Can anyone answer the following two questions for me? Educate me:
<b>1) What is the reason why a given team's roster cannot be increased, when many other teams have rosters that have 8 to 10+?? </b>
<b>2) What is the disadvantage of having a slightly larger roster?</b>
Grow this game! Take a chance on players. Teach them how to play this game properly... to understand the depth of the gameplay and teamwork needed that makes this game so glorious.
As mentioned by many others, this game is in beta. So, I think the goal of all those playing, especially those considered to be role models (just like offline sports, good players/teams tend to be looked at as role models or someone to look up to) should be to try and grow the player base at this point in time. Think of skiing and snowboarding. Skiers used to hate snowboarders on mountains (maybe they still do now, but not nearly as much as in the early days of snowboarding), but it was the growth of snowboarding that helped to increase the number of mountain resorts... and their facilities and amenities, like better chair lifts, more runs, nicer washrooms, etc. More people using the resorts and facilities helped to fund this growth. Everyone wins in the long run.
If we don't work on growing the player base, and have a "boys club" with a few select players at the top who will only play with each other, the player base will likely die... or start to plateau fast. We need to gather more critical mass... I don't think it's sustainable to only have a steady, small player base... the developers need to eat and pay their bills too. ;)
On a related tangent, this also goes towards team-stacking/skill-stacking on public servers... and I'm seeing it more and more as people are starting to recognize each other's aliases. Imagine a newer player coming on only to lose time after time after time again, or be berated for lack of skill. Do you think they'll play again? They'll probably just go play BF or COD or SC... which I know some of you are okay with... but think about it for a second....<b> this game needs to capture new players... and retain them... in order to have longevity... especially at this "early" stage of development. </b> Please try and keep teams even, especially if you're wearing your tags? :)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932302:date=May 1 2012, 07:38 PM:name=Furious_Gorge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Furious_Gorge @ May 1 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game needs to capture new players... and retain them... in order to have longevity... especially at this "early" stage of development.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
New players join the game and play on servers that cant handle the game well, getting an bad game experince and leave for a while. Or the new players have bad computers and poor fps and leave.
Its too early for real competition right now. And i dont think new players stay with the game, cause of some clans.
And yes, its not easy all the time to bring up a 6 men team. We have a long weekend here in germany for example cause of an holiday and we have very nice weather here, so most of us have no time. This called REAL LIFE. Or people getting sick suddenly and cant play, wich called real life too.
On sunday for example, i try over 1 hour to organize 2 more players. 3 casters spend 6 hours for casting and over 100 want to watch the match. And then we heard "no, we dont want to play against you". This was a slap in the face for the 3 casters, the people who want to watch the match and me trying all my best to organize players. Thx to papageorgio at this point, i think we clarify this issue and im sure we play against soon in a friendlier way.
And i say it again: These casts are to show the future potential of the game and no real competition cause lack of performance, features and we have no tournament so they are for fun and training also.
I try to recruite more atm, but something like this take time (HBZ is active again since 1,5 weeks)
<!--quoteo(post=1932214:date=May 1 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ May 1 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we'd been contacted a day or two in advance about the possibility of Koruyo ringing, I don't think anyone would have minded him running combat roles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.
<!--quoteo(post=1932310:date=May 1 2012, 12:10 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 1 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, its not easy all the time to bring up a 6 men team. We have a long weekend here in germany for example cause of an holiday and we have very nice weather here, so most of us have no time. This called REAL LIFE. Or people getting sick suddenly and cant play, wich called real life too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the difficulties of real life, and in fact, spoke of it as well... but that is why I asked why not field a roster that has 10+ players? I know in HBZ's case, you guys just started... so completely understandable.
But I do truly believe part of the onus is on teams to actively and aggressively recruit and/or be less selective and try and bring someone up to a satisfactory level to compete with your team.
Btw, I totally understand long weekends/holidays, or having no time... but then why schedule (this is not just directed at dePARA and his team, but in general)? If you know of these predictable "real life" interruptions, why waste another team's time by scheduling a match? I don't know... just seems like it might be common sense?
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 12:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In real life, whether it be recreational sports, a work meeting, a group project, etc., it is possible to get organized 2 days before. And, you can increase the chances of having a full team ready if you field a roster of 10+ or more.
There are many people interested in the game beyond pub-type play, as you can see by the responses on Ascension's thread.
So I respectfully and humbly ask again, because I haven't yet really heard an answer to them...
<b>1) What is the reason why a given team's roster cannot be increased, when many other teams have rosters that have 8 to 10+??
2) What is the disadvantage of having a slightly larger roster?</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1932310:date=May 1 2012, 02:10 PM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ May 1 2012, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On sunday for example, i try over 1 hour to organize 2 more players. 3 casters spend 6 hours for casting and over 100 want to watch the match. And then we heard "no, we dont want to play against you". This was a slap in the face for the 3 casters, the people who want to watch the match and me trying all my best to organize players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody in -[420]- ever wanted to say that we refused to play against HBZ, dePARA. If that was the message that was conveyed, I apologize for the miscommunication. What we intended to say both on Steam and in-game was that you were welcome to bring in a ringer if you needed to, but due to the suddenness of this event and the lack of forewarning about this development, we would have to ask that you limit your ringer to a non-combat Gorge/Com roll, or to reschedule with us for a time that worked better for your team as a whole.
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We at -[420]- always confirm our members will be present several days before the match, and have replacements standing by in case something occurs on the day-of. I don't think we've run a ringer in months, and the last match we weren't completely prepared for was due to a scheduling snafu where half our team's information said it was on Sat and the other half said it was on Sun; in that case we simply apologized and offered to reschedule.
That being said Wilson, you've already proclaimed yourself "not a part of the competitive community" in this thread, so how you would know with such vitriolic certainty what teams are capable of scheduling for eludes me.
i agree ringers PISS ME OFF!! they make me almost as mad as the designers vehemently catering to the every whim of competitive players while ignoring the far more important pubbers such as my self. good on team 420 for finally bringing this ringer problem to the community's attention, i say.
I agree it's a problem that I haven't been asked to ring in many competitive scrims yet.
Any team that wants to win, call Jerkstoresup, America's ringer. I'll put an end to this problem once and for all, and I won't even notice if the other team is using ringers because I can't see over my giant balls.
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy for you to say all this is a joke, but you're talking about a <b>professionally commentated and broadcast HD stream viewed by thousands of people. It's a main advertising campaign by UW and it's selling copies of NS2 which leads to NS2 being released.
It's worth paying respect to the casters, players, and viewers to show up to a match with such gravitas.</b>
Anyway, without further ado I present another image to add to the original post:
Usually ringers in PCWs are a great thing, and I really don't see a problem here. I'll gladly play vs any clan that has up to 2 ringers. If there are more ringers, it's a mix, which I'll gladly play against as well! ;) ... Ringers are great for getting more matches going and maybe also for spreading new ideas around different clans, which should be good for the community. That being said, I do think that having a ringer - even a very highly skilled one - can be a disadvantage, since they're often unfamiliar with your clans style of play and team dynamics. NS2 is all about teamwork after all!
I also understand a limit to ringers in tournaments and leagues. We are however in beta with a small community and only PCWs, so I don't see a reason for disallowing ringers. However, since this issue is splitting the community, maybe there should be some kind of ruling or agreement regarding ringers in casted matches? We've already had to wait and watch this argument occupy a live stream, so it could be time to either: make a ruling on mercs on NS2HD casted matches or make sure that all clans are on the same page regarding mercs.
Also, in the absence of a ruling I'm hoping that match arrangers (for casted matches at least) could maybe make sure beforehand that both clans understand, if the opposing clan wants any special house rules like "no mercs" or "mercs can only gorge" or "no hydra spam" or "no 1st hive onos" etc... If one of these house rules is an absolutely necessary precondition for your clan to play, PLEASE make sure the other clan knows this is so!
PS. I have no idea how clear 420 was on this requirement before that game, though I know they've been vocal on the subject. All that really doesn't matter now. I'm writing this just to state my opinion on this and to maybe save us some trouble later on!
PSS. More games please! Bring all the ringers you want! ;)
PSSS. Treffnix played against vs us one day with Arc, Duplex and HBZ, and he is a deadly shot. I found it amusing by getting plastered by the same guy in all the games... Maybe he has a vendetta or something ;)
with such a small community trying to play so many matches on the same day you,ve got to expect that some players are gonna go missing and some teams will need to replace them with ringers.
If some teams are letting allstars ringers play for them on purpose then shame on them but i dont think its the case with nothing at stakes.
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 03:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you clearly have never played a raiding-oriented MMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1932821:date=May 3 2012, 03:18 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ May 3 2012, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you clearly have never played a raiding-oriented MMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres a slight difference between specific 6 of 8, than random 20 of 50.
<!--quoteo(post=1933108:date=May 3 2012, 03:56 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ May 3 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres a slight difference between specific 6 of 8, than random 20 of 50.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what's wrong with this...let's begin.
First you assume all NS2 clans are made up of 8 people with this statement.
Second, you've got completely backwards; MMOs have specific classes and inflexible character builds rather than NS2 which is an FPS and everyone can flexibly choose their roles.
First you assume all NS2 clans are made up of 8 people with this statement.
Second, you've got completely backwards; MMOs have specific classes and inflexible character builds rather than NS2 which is an FPS and everyone can flexibly choose their roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference with raids and small competitive matches is that you don't need team play when raiding. In dungeon raids you need people who can play their own class (pressing the buttons in the correct order, equipping correctly, etc) and who know the strategies of those scripted boss fights. You don't need actual team play, because everyone knows what he has to do.
Competitive matches on the other hand are much more dynamic and require the player to know how his team mates think. This can only be achieved by practicing together.
You can compare competitive matches in NS2 with arena matches in World of Warcraft (dunno if you played that). You couldn't simply change two players with new ones, because those wouldn't know the play style of the team (positioning, tactics, communication).
edit: in both cases you need a leader with good coordination and communication skills of course.
Ringers are not some kind of secret weapon that win games for your team?
There is a reason why some clans dont care about ringers, they know that individual k/d rarely wins matches... solid teamwork communication and tactics do.
Also its nice to play against very challenging players - no matter if they help out other teams or come with their own... i would love to play against sick combos with ppl like fana, treffnix etc. in it, sure i would maybe blame it on them at first for pushing the teams in case we lose - tho in the end it would be our own fault, lack of teamplay communications - so it pushes your team into getting better and improve, you analyze footage, figure out mistakes, practice more etc. ringers are the last thing you should worry about. (especially in ns2 where you have lots of possible strategical options that dont rely on pure k/d to win)
But maybe i just dont get it, im sorry.
PS: (from the own team perspective) i know that it would be better to not play with ringers, but those games are still practice for your team... while not perfect(because ringer instead of your member) you can still learn and improve a lot more, than not playing at all or having to play public that day.
In a game where you cant get a match at any time without much planning - its important to play as often as you can in a competitive setup. (especially if its american vs Europe- which you can only play on weekends)
<!--quoteo(post=1933600:date=May 4 2012, 10:19 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ May 4 2012, 10:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Growing presence of ringers in <b>competitive</b><i></i> scrims.
Well they gave you a challenge didn't they? By the look of it they handed your arse to you. Can't get more competitive than that.
Would have thought that would be a good thing for <b>competitive</b><i></i> play to face harder opponents.........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spoken like someone who has never competed in a game before. It's possible to play against people that outmatch you by so much that you can't learn anything from the experience, except that you don't want to play them again until you're much better.
Comments
That is not everyone's opinion at least. PCW is PCW and not a tournament match. Scores are kept randomly atm. Forfeiting a stream PCW match without getting enough players would be lot worser than playing with 1-2 mercs even for the audience. If you play with more than two mercs then merc team can't be considered to be a clan and its a mix. Its beta and does not have full player base yet, so mercs in PCWs should be OK. Proper matches should be arranged so that six on the team can play yes. Maybe people are not getting the difference between match and PCW sometimes even and its unclear.
Since everyone is still learning the game because game mechanics change often, rules should be more flexible until beta is over. There is huge difference how much clans even play PCWs during the weeks. Some play 1 game per week and some play 20 games per week. So in time the solid clans should come out of the unsolid ones.
So, playing as merc for another team is ok for you, but to play against a team with mercs not?
This is a kind of double moral.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who have we been ringing for? That's been on twitch?
So we see DS and ALL-IN form a new Clan soon?
So we see DS and ALL-IN form a new Clan soon?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good call good call *puts foot in mouth*. Well i can't say much to that. But the EU teams do it alot and that's whats becoming the issue i think.It's becoming the norm. Some team's wanna see how they do, you cant find that out when you play 3 different teams. What is the issue with farming a 6-8 man team? I have 12 i think. Like 10 of them active.
P.S. HBZ when can All-In come tap dat ass? :)
If you think we ask them cause we need a better skilllevel, you are totally wrong. believe me.
And please stop your discussion in an live-stream as hugh suggestet in the future.
This is/was not a tournament, its just for practice and having fun and maybe to present the own clan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didnt mean to say thats why you guys had them there. Only reason it came up was the fact you had ringers after this post was created and our clan leaders didnt know. Just had to start enforcing the policy somewhere and it just happened to be your team first. I enjoy playing no matter what so im glad it did work out. I watched HBZ on the first casts so it was cool playing with you guys now.
@hugh lol you did take me down a few times :x.
Please believe me Hugh when I say that hate delays, especially bureaucratic ones, on streams and casts with a passion, even more so with ones that are on our end. Though it led to some fun gameplay on your part, the mid-round delay that match dragged on far too long, and even though I don't feel that our actions were wrong, I would like to apologize to you, if not as a representative, as a player, for the issues that this caused for your cast.
That being said, Moo is right on the money.
<!--quoteo(post=1932075:date=Apr 30 2012, 08:42 PM:name=MooJr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MooJr @ Apr 30 2012, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So where and how do you draw the line? Simple answer would be to ask permission from both teams and agree with ringer before game start. Now in regards to Sunday, we got hit with it 5 mins before game start and the decision had to be made on the spot and kinda made us look like the bad guys. Is the juice worth the squeeze, ya know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we'd been contacted a day or two in advance about the possibility of Koruyo ringing, I don't think anyone would have minded him running combat roles, even if he'd wound up mopping the floor with us afterwards (Not saying for sure whether he would or would not though, that's something to find out on another day). When it was just sprung on us with no warning, however, we did ask they limit their ringer to a non-combat roll, which has been a frequent suggestion in this thread.
I've been saying it for the past few weeks, but I'd like to take the opportunity to say it once again: Talk to us if you think you might have issues getting your team together for a match, please. We are extremely flexible in rescheduling games to meet whatever situations you need for your team to get together. If you need to run a replacement for whatever reason, give us a heads up. Even a quick message 20-30 min before the game gives us time to discuss terms and adjust our strats accordingly; waiting until it's time for the game to kick off before announcing it just leads to delays and confusion. To cut down on lengthy delaying negotiations, our knee-jerk reaction will usually be "1 ringer Com/Gorge" if we have to make a snap decision.
I couldn't agree more Hugh, there is a time and place for the ringer issue to be discussed and during a live stream is not one of them. I am still very happy with the way it worked out though and glad we got to play against you Hugh. You did awesome!
As for DePara, by no means were we implying that Kory was going to carry your team. HBZ is a extremely skilled team and you guys have definitely been in the NS2 scene longer than we have, which truly showed in our scrim. We really enjoyed our match against you guys and hope to have many more in the near future.
When it comes down to the ringer issue, it really helps to know other clans and their players. That way when a ringer is put in during a live stream we know who we are up against. As for Kory, I really didn't have a problem with him ringing. That is why you didn't hear much out of me when the subject came up. If I do have a problem with a ringer and I think the match should be rescheduled or that the ringer should play a designated roll, I will say so. The key word here is "I" will say so and I'll make sure that the rest of our krew understands that.
I wanted to say thanks again to all of the teams and casters who made last week happen. You all rock and I am proud to be apart of the NS2 community and be able to play with such a great group of people.
I am glad 420 is taking a stand on this. I think in order to really solve it, something has to be put in place, otherwise the issue just keeps coming up over and over and over again. Is it really that hard to have no ringers? I don't really know... I'm not currently on any team... the last team I was on was in NS1... so maybe the state of affairs at the moment is different. But hey, we just found players we liked on pubs (e.g. team players, eager to learn, etc.) or had players message us, and we took the time to train them. There are people who will work hard to be a team player and will steadily improve when joining a team.
Can anyone answer the following two questions for me? Educate me:
<b>1) What is the reason why a given team's roster cannot be increased, when many other teams have rosters that have 8 to 10+?? </b>
<b>2) What is the disadvantage of having a slightly larger roster?</b>
Grow this game! Take a chance on players. Teach them how to play this game properly... to understand the depth of the gameplay and teamwork needed that makes this game so glorious.
As mentioned by many others, this game is in beta. So, I think the goal of all those playing, especially those considered to be role models (just like offline sports, good players/teams tend to be looked at as role models or someone to look up to) should be to try and grow the player base at this point in time. Think of skiing and snowboarding. Skiers used to hate snowboarders on mountains (maybe they still do now, but not nearly as much as in the early days of snowboarding), but it was the growth of snowboarding that helped to increase the number of mountain resorts... and their facilities and amenities, like better chair lifts, more runs, nicer washrooms, etc. More people using the resorts and facilities helped to fund this growth. Everyone wins in the long run.
If we don't work on growing the player base, and have a "boys club" with a few select players at the top who will only play with each other, the player base will likely die... or start to plateau fast. We need to gather more critical mass... I don't think it's sustainable to only have a steady, small player base... the developers need to eat and pay their bills too. ;)
On a related tangent, this also goes towards team-stacking/skill-stacking on public servers... and I'm seeing it more and more as people are starting to recognize each other's aliases. Imagine a newer player coming on only to lose time after time after time again, or be berated for lack of skill. Do you think they'll play again? They'll probably just go play BF or COD or SC... which I know some of you are okay with... but think about it for a second....<b> this game needs to capture new players... and retain them... in order to have longevity... especially at this "early" stage of development. </b> Please try and keep teams even, especially if you're wearing your tags? :)
New players join the game and play on servers that cant handle the game well, getting an bad game experince and leave for a while.
Or the new players have bad computers and poor fps and leave.
Its too early for real competition right now.
And i dont think new players stay with the game, cause of some clans.
And yes, its not easy all the time to bring up a 6 men team.
We have a long weekend here in germany for example cause of an holiday and we have very nice weather here, so most of us have no time. This called REAL LIFE.
Or people getting sick suddenly and cant play, wich called real life too.
On sunday for example, i try over 1 hour to organize 2 more players. 3 casters spend 6 hours for casting and over 100 want to watch the match.
And then we heard "no, we dont want to play against you". This was a slap in the face for the 3 casters, the people who want to watch the match and me trying all my best to organize players.
Thx to papageorgio at this point, i think we clarify this issue and im sure we play against soon in a friendlier way.
And i say it again: These casts are to show the future potential of the game and no real competition cause lack of performance, features and we have no tournament so they are for fun and training also.
I try to recruite more atm, but something like this take time (HBZ is active again since 1,5 weeks)
Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.
We have a long weekend here in germany for example cause of an holiday and we have very nice weather here, so most of us have no time. This called REAL LIFE.
Or people getting sick suddenly and cant play, wich called real life too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the difficulties of real life, and in fact, spoke of it as well... but that is why I asked why not field a roster that has 10+ players? I know in HBZ's case, you guys just started... so completely understandable.
But I do truly believe part of the onus is on teams to actively and aggressively recruit and/or be less selective and try and bring someone up to a satisfactory level to compete with your team.
Btw, I totally understand long weekends/holidays, or having no time... but then why schedule (this is not just directed at dePARA and his team, but in general)? If you know of these predictable "real life" interruptions, why waste another team's time by scheduling a match? I don't know... just seems like it might be common sense?
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 12:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In real life, whether it be recreational sports, a work meeting, a group project, etc., it is possible to get organized 2 days before. And, you can increase the chances of having a full team ready if you field a roster of 10+ or more.
There are many people interested in the game beyond pub-type play, as you can see by the responses on Ascension's thread.
So I respectfully and humbly ask again, because I haven't yet really heard an answer to them...
<b>1) What is the reason why a given team's roster cannot be increased, when many other teams have rosters that have 8 to 10+??
2) What is the disadvantage of having a slightly larger roster?</b>
And then we heard "no, we dont want to play against you". This was a slap in the face for the 3 casters, the people who want to watch the match and me trying all my best to organize players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody in -[420]- ever wanted to say that we refused to play against HBZ, dePARA. If that was the message that was conveyed, I apologize for the miscommunication. What we intended to say both on Steam and in-game was that you were welcome to bring in a ringer if you needed to, but due to the suddenness of this event and the lack of forewarning about this development, we would have to ask that you limit your ringer to a non-combat Gorge/Com roll, or to reschedule with us for a time that worked better for your team as a whole.
<!--quoteo(post=1932322:date=May 1 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ May 1 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, get real! No one knows 2 days before if they will have a team ready. This whole thread is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We at -[420]- always confirm our members will be present several days before the match, and have replacements standing by in case something occurs on the day-of. I don't think we've run a ringer in months, and the last match we weren't completely prepared for was due to a scheduling snafu where half our team's information said it was on Sat and the other half said it was on Sun; in that case we simply apologized and offered to reschedule.
That being said Wilson, you've already proclaimed yourself "not a part of the competitive community" in this thread, so how you would know with such vitriolic certainty what teams are capable of scheduling for eludes me.
Any team that wants to win, call Jerkstoresup, America's ringer. I'll put an end to this problem once and for all, and I won't even notice if the other team is using ringers because I can't see over my giant balls.
Jerkstoresup, America's ringer
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/id/jerkstoresup" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/id/jerkstoresup</a>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/wgIbZ.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Easy for you to say all this is a joke, but you're talking about a <b>professionally commentated and broadcast HD stream viewed by thousands of people. It's a main advertising campaign by UW and it's selling copies of NS2 which leads to NS2 being released.
It's worth paying respect to the casters, players, and viewers to show up to a match with such gravitas.</b>
Anyway, without further ado I present another image to add to the original post:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/c1Vjq.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
RINGER TEAM STACK LOLOL
Hugh if you get TEAM UW together we will have to rematch!!
I also understand a limit to ringers in tournaments and leagues. We are however in beta with a small community and only PCWs, so I don't see a reason for disallowing ringers. However, since this issue is splitting the community, maybe there should be some kind of ruling or agreement regarding ringers in casted matches? We've already had to wait and watch this argument occupy a live stream, so it could be time to either: make a ruling on mercs on NS2HD casted matches or make sure that all clans are on the same page regarding mercs.
Also, in the absence of a ruling I'm hoping that match arrangers (for casted matches at least) could maybe make sure beforehand that both clans understand, if the opposing clan wants any special house rules like "no mercs" or "mercs can only gorge" or "no hydra spam" or "no 1st hive onos" etc... If one of these house rules is an absolutely necessary precondition for your clan to play, PLEASE make sure the other clan knows this is so!
PS. I have no idea how clear 420 was on this requirement before that game, though I know they've been vocal on the subject. All that really doesn't matter now. I'm writing this just to state my opinion on this and to maybe save us some trouble later on!
PSS. More games please! Bring all the ringers you want! ;)
PSSS. Treffnix played against vs us one day with Arc, Duplex and HBZ, and he is a deadly shot. I found it amusing by getting plastered by the same guy in all the games... Maybe he has a vendetta or something ;)
If some teams are letting allstars ringers play for them on purpose then shame on them but i dont think its the case with nothing at stakes.
you clearly have never played a raiding-oriented MMO.
Theres a slight difference between specific 6 of 8, than random 20 of 50.
So what's wrong with this...let's begin.
First you assume all NS2 clans are made up of 8 people with this statement.
Second, you've got completely backwards; MMOs have specific classes and inflexible character builds rather than NS2 which is an FPS and everyone can flexibly choose their roles.
First you assume all NS2 clans are made up of 8 people with this statement.
Second, you've got completely backwards; MMOs have specific classes and inflexible character builds rather than NS2 which is an FPS and everyone can flexibly choose their roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference with raids and small competitive matches is that you don't need team play when raiding.
In dungeon raids you need people who can play their own class (pressing the buttons in the correct order, equipping correctly, etc) and who know the strategies of those scripted boss fights. You don't need actual team play, because everyone knows what he has to do.
Competitive matches on the other hand are much more dynamic and require the player to know how his team mates think. This can only be achieved by practicing together.
You can compare competitive matches in NS2 with arena matches in World of Warcraft (dunno if you played that). You couldn't simply change two players with new ones, because those wouldn't know the play style of the team (positioning, tactics, communication).
edit: in both cases you need a leader with good coordination and communication skills of course.
There is a reason why some clans dont care about ringers, they know that individual k/d rarely wins matches... solid teamwork communication and tactics do.
Also its nice to play against very challenging players - no matter if they help out other teams or come with their own... i would love to play against sick combos with ppl like fana, treffnix etc. in it, sure i would maybe blame it on them at first for pushing the teams in case we lose - tho in the end it would be our own fault, lack of teamplay communications - so it pushes your team into getting better and improve, you analyze footage, figure out mistakes, practice more etc. ringers are the last thing you should worry about. (especially in ns2 where you have lots of possible strategical options that dont rely on pure k/d to win)
But maybe i just dont get it, im sorry.
PS: (from the own team perspective) i know that it would be better to not play with ringers, but those games are still practice for your team... while not perfect(because ringer instead of your member) you can still learn and improve a lot more, than not playing at all or having to play public that day.
In a game where you cant get a match at any time without much planning - its important to play as often as you can in a competitive setup. (especially if its american vs Europe- which you can only play on weekends)
Well they gave you a challenge didn't they? By the look of it they handed your arse to you. Can't get more competitive than that.
Would have thought that would be a good thing for <b>competitive</b><i></i> play to face harder opponents.........
Well they gave you a challenge didn't they? By the look of it they handed your arse to you. Can't get more competitive than that.
Would have thought that would be a good thing for <b>competitive</b><i></i> play to face harder opponents.........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spoken like someone who has never competed in a game before.
It's possible to play against people that outmatch you by so much that you can't learn anything from the experience, except that you don't want to play them again until you're much better.
I see a thread that was bumped for no good reason
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