Sneaky Marines?
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">it doesn't quite fit</div>Back in the original natural-selection, each team had their own distinct traits. The marines were slow and had cumbersome technology, but came with great force, while the aliens were agile and elusive (for the most part) and attacked with surprise. The roles were cliche perhaps, but each team was completely different and it was a great dynamic.
For the sake of this post, I will focus on the specific attributes of the marine team. They were slow.. really slow. A good 50% slower than the aliens, and that's if the aliens weren't bhopping. They were also predictable. Always starting in the same location, while aliens could be in any of three possible places. When a marine was parasited, it was a big deal, because he knew that every alien on the map now had permanent knowledge of his location, no matter where they were. Even without parasite, it was easy to monitor marine actions because they were always in plain sight.
Because of all these factors, marines were essentially <b>forced</b> to move in groups. Their slow speed meant that dying was a major set back, taking ages to regain what ever progress had been made. Their predictable movements meant that encounters were inevitable, they couldn't merely slip under the radar, they had to use firepower to overwhelm whatever obstacles they encountered.
This also meant that an unseen marine was a deadly marine. Failing to keep track of an enemy marine could be devastating to the alien team, and was frequently the cause for lost hives and games. But it wasn't easy, a single footstep would give you away. It took time skill and patience to get to the ideal location to attack from, and it was rewarding.
In NS2 however, this seems to have changed greatly. Aliens are now only marginally faster than marines, and no more elusive. Marines can appear anywhere at any time, and most alien structures are so weak that they are essentially undefendable once a marine gets up to them. The entire marine team can prepare a shotgun rush on a hive location, and the aliens will only know once the marines are directly outside the room. There is almost no reason to move as a group, because no matter where you die on the map, you know you can get back to that exact location in no more than 30 seconds tops.
In my opinion, the marine team's extreme mobility is destroying the strategic dynamic of this game. Its gotten to the point where it is the marines that are the sneaky ones, appearing where you least expect them, attacking quickly and devastatingly. Its the aliens who are slow and predictable now.
<b>tl;dr remove sprint from the game</b>
For the sake of this post, I will focus on the specific attributes of the marine team. They were slow.. really slow. A good 50% slower than the aliens, and that's if the aliens weren't bhopping. They were also predictable. Always starting in the same location, while aliens could be in any of three possible places. When a marine was parasited, it was a big deal, because he knew that every alien on the map now had permanent knowledge of his location, no matter where they were. Even without parasite, it was easy to monitor marine actions because they were always in plain sight.
Because of all these factors, marines were essentially <b>forced</b> to move in groups. Their slow speed meant that dying was a major set back, taking ages to regain what ever progress had been made. Their predictable movements meant that encounters were inevitable, they couldn't merely slip under the radar, they had to use firepower to overwhelm whatever obstacles they encountered.
This also meant that an unseen marine was a deadly marine. Failing to keep track of an enemy marine could be devastating to the alien team, and was frequently the cause for lost hives and games. But it wasn't easy, a single footstep would give you away. It took time skill and patience to get to the ideal location to attack from, and it was rewarding.
In NS2 however, this seems to have changed greatly. Aliens are now only marginally faster than marines, and no more elusive. Marines can appear anywhere at any time, and most alien structures are so weak that they are essentially undefendable once a marine gets up to them. The entire marine team can prepare a shotgun rush on a hive location, and the aliens will only know once the marines are directly outside the room. There is almost no reason to move as a group, because no matter where you die on the map, you know you can get back to that exact location in no more than 30 seconds tops.
In my opinion, the marine team's extreme mobility is destroying the strategic dynamic of this game. Its gotten to the point where it is the marines that are the sneaky ones, appearing where you least expect them, attacking quickly and devastatingly. Its the aliens who are slow and predictable now.
<b>tl;dr remove sprint from the game</b>
Comments
I would argue that while marines could be a bit slower, the key issue in build 206 regarding ninja-marines everywhere is actually two-fold: a) harvesters are so weak, that once a marine is on it, you do not have any time to react and b) 20s spawn wave shuts down alien map control which creates ample opportunities for ninja-marines to expoit. I believe these will be changed in the next patch, although I could be wrong.
PS. I don't think sneaky marines are actually all that bad; good players in the right place at the right time should be allowed to be effective. It's just that sometimes every time and every place seem like the right one ;)
+9 billion
Drop sprint and make the marine base-speed a bit faster.
Of course skulks should become a hellofalot faster too, when is that finally gonna happen...
Its not so much an issue of the sneakiness being outright bad. If they want to take it in that direction then so be it. The problem is the marines sacrifice nothing for it. Essentially the aliens have been added unchanged (talking early game here), and perhaps even slightly slower, while the marines have been added exactly as they were, but their speed has been increased massively.
<!--quoteo(post=1932575:date=May 2 2012, 03:08 PM:name={LoC}Blue_Leader)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({LoC}Blue_Leader @ May 2 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aren't Aliens still winning a large amount of games compared to Marines? Haven't played recently but there was some severe balance issues that should be looked first before nerfing Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It started off that way, but now that people understand how to win, aliens lose almost every game (in my experience anyway). The only time I see aliens win is when the marines either have no comm, or a very inexperienced one. Also its not so much a balance issue as a core mechanic issue. I feel the marines are losing their distinct identity.
As far as marines suprising aliens goes however, this never happens if the aliens just check on the minimap :P Aliens are still able to suprise marines with skulks able to hide on walls and their cloaking abilities, without adjusting running speeds.
This is actually one of the main reasons I want sprint removed. If I spawn as a marine in Flight Control, check the minimap, and suddenly see a skulk begin attacking a res tower in Sub-Access, I can sprint there and make it in time to save it. That is just ridiculous. The marine team has to put absolutely no effort into taking and controlling almost all the res towers on the map. In NS1 (I know this isn't NS1, but its a good reference for what is balanced and fun) an extractor was either electrified, or fortified with an outpost. If it wasn't, it had a permanent guard, or it was lost.
The real solutions such as cheap fortification or defence for this scenario havn't made it into the game (nanoshield isn't enough by itself). I hope that marines do become slower, but only if they have more options for suplying cheap defence which only acts to buy them enough time to reach an outpost before it is destroyed by a lonely skulk
I think the numbers might have completely turned around in this build. Before it was the skulks chomping down marine RTs constantly but that's not nearly as viable anymore due to the 20 sec spawn. Now instead we have marines that respawn almost instantly and run almost as fast as skulks (those that can't walljump well anyway) and axe harvesters down in under 10 seconds ALONE.
.02
Aliens with 4 res towers from the start get blinking carapace fades at around 6 minutes. Good marine offences at harvesters can delay this as much as 4-6 minutes. Before the fades come out, marines dominate the map. This is due to 20s spawn waves. On public servers the waves and a tendency of many players to go gorge and be generally defensive often combine to give marines free reign of the map save for a hydra-fortified harvester or two. This can be mitigated by good lerks.
Now, if the aliens reach the first blinking fades, they have a really really good chance of getting the win. Good fades do not currently die, and this is very evident on public servers. If the fades can be shut down, the marines can still win after this, but they tend to lose map control to fades really quickly. In clan matches I've seen mass fade tactics where 3 fades go down almost right after they appear and the 2 remaining fades (the luckiest and/or the most skilled ones) still manage to shut down marine map control almost completely.
On clan matches, I still would say the aliens are definitely stronger in Summit. In Turtle it is around. Mineshaft is all aliens and on Tram im not certain... Could be 50/50 or something like that.
On publics the wins are often won by a) good aggressive marine teamplay and ninja-kills on harvesters and b) good alien players with lerks/fades. On the other hand the games are often lost by a) marines camping and allowing aliens to get fades b) and aliens using the game as some kind of Farmwille with snotballs for walls and hydras for fun... Right now I think the balance on public is pretty good in Summit at least, and games are more often determined by skilled play than by imbalance issues...
a marine should never be able to run away from a skulk, NEVER!
a marine should never be able to run away from a skulk, NEVER!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can't? Wall jump to give your self more speed. All it takes is one successful hop and you are now faster than him.
Then there is leap. That one should be pretty obvious.
a marine should never be able to run away from a skulk, NEVER!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And they shouldn't be able to. Marine sprint speed is 6, skulk base speed is 7. Not to mention getting a few well timed wall jumps in as a skulk can boost your speed to some (currently) ridiculous speeds. Not to mention celerity, which as far as I know is still planned as an upgrade. And there's leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1932584:date=May 2 2012, 01:31 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 2 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I spawn as a marine in Flight Control, check the minimap, and suddenly see a skulk begin attacking a res tower in Sub-Access, I can sprint there and make it in time to save it. That is just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is, Summit is just one map example that is on the small side. Larger maps like Mineshaft are already hard for marines to get around in order to defend their RTs, with sprint. Removing sprint would be crippling on a map like that.
--Cory
The problem is, Summit is just one map example that is on the small side. Larger maps like Mineshaft are already hard for marines to get around in order to defend their RTs, with sprint. Removing sprint would be crippling on a map like that.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be true. However, in my opinion (and the numbers agree) maps like eclipse, nothing, hera, are all larger than mineshaft. Marines weren't crippled then, and I can't tell what's changed.
2. Alien scouting: Infestation, parasite, drifter scout, players in your team using voice.
Parasite is still awesome as ever + there are so many more scouting options that its almost impossible to not know where marines are at any given time in ns2.
Like in ns1, ns2 is about good pressure - if marines do it right(split pushing) it appears to you that they are appearing everywhere... but thats a mistake by your team, either you fail at a lot of small battles or you are distributing your forces incorrectly. (maybe you also got 1-2 perma gorges playing minecraft in a useless place => players missing on the field)
It sure is a bit crappy atm since harvester hp is too low, but well every player in the alien team can currently spam 3 hydras and switch lifeform back again to help securing at least 3rts - they might still go down every now and then but pressure to the hive is not possible until arcs or some very good gl use.
eh.. no? i will not learn some artificial movementmechanic that disrupts my natural skulkplay. i dont understand it and it makes no sense to me.
focus has to lie on the normal movement. if there is some way for the "pro´s" to get themselfs a little speedbuff by jumping around its fine with me, but it has to be small and can not be considdered normal movement.
it has been many years that i played ns1, but i dont remember bunnyhopping giving you a speedboost tbh.
walljumping is as normal as it gets considering teleporting aliens, bellysliding fatties, flying humans and... wallwalking and walljumping dogs.
get used to it.
its a mechanic that can be learned in 5 minutes, although mastered in a much longer time. ever played ns1? guess you didn't, because thats where the "pro's" had a benefit that was insane. a non-strafejumping skulk was a dead one. even onos strafejumped, while being ducked. lerk had to pancake like being on serious drugs to evade effectively.
THAT was absurd movement to the max.
a jump to the wall and immediate offjump in about 90 degrees sound pretty managable.
The problem is, Summit is just one map example that is on the small side. Larger maps like Mineshaft are already hard for marines to get around in order to defend their RTs, with sprint. Removing sprint would be crippling on a map like that.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was knowingly exagourating to make a point. the point is, if you are running behind a marine that hasnt noticed you yet it feels like ages until you finaly overcome the few meters he was in front.(normaly by the time you catch up, he reached his destination[base, group of marines, etc.] and you are ****ed.)
and in that situation in which i find myself quite often you dont want to use walljump because it makes noise.
i agree, that walljumping is rediculous.(i know you didnt say that, just let me have the illusion)
are you serious? bunnyhop was the "natural" skulk movement and it did give you a massive speedboost.
marines on the other side had walk. i want walk back. sometimes you have to be silent.
Would it really be crippling though?
Marines were slower in NS1 and the maps were larger. They held their RTs by defending key locations. I don't see why that couldn't also work in NS2.
(Mind you the hp of unbuilt harvesters is fine IMO, it's just the built ones that have become a little too fragile in 205. This is the first build in which you actually see aliens getting 'reslocked' now and then. Extremely annoying)
focus has to lie on the normal movement. if there is some way for the "pro´s" to get themselfs a little speedbuff by jumping around its fine with me, but it has to be small and can not be considdered normal movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wall-Jumping is massively useful and it's not hard to learn, I don't see why you would want to limit yourself for the sake of lofty principles.
Even then, bhopping was massively more effective than wall jumping is now. Whereas wall jumping offers maybe a 50% speed increase with a fair amount of practice, bhopping was easily doubling the speeds of people who had barely grasped the concept. Real pro bhoppers could go up to 3-4 times faster. I think its safe to say that, wall jumping or not, marines are much closer to the speed of aliens, which I don't think is a good thing.