attack radius was reduced to give skulks a safe place to sit & munch away. in practice not needed as much since lerk can confuse turrets now. logical & cool, but an unnecessary complication. can live with it though.
arcs are mostly coolness, but have mobility & dont need support buildings. probably should be more rare & robust (not spammable unless res dominance). to ninja, i guess you'd need a sneaky robo factory. as for the arc procession - closest analog i can think of in NS1 is the heavy/hmg/welder train that would start from a marine base & go kill a hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1933087:date=May 3 2012, 10:25 AM:name=goblin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (goblin @ May 3 2012, 10:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's a beta, there are missing features<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta" target="_blank">Yeah?</a> Seems like a bit of a mistake to me. Not just the fact that it's called a beta, either. The mistake is believing that the OP's caring about missing core gameplay elements does not belong in a beta. It belongs in an alpha (which was clearly not completed properly), and it belongs in a beta too (since adding the things that make it "NS" after release is incredibly foolish). This isn't just a gripe about word choice - we can see all around us the problems that come with giving thousands of biased players (who are not game designers) access to an NS game that doesn't have celerity or heavies in it.
Posting "it's a beta" everywhere isn't cool anymore okay?
<!--quoteo(post=1933134:date=May 3 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ May 3 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are still many who believe the same as you DJ. But alot of them have moved on. The game is being forced into a linear style of play, and is just not as fun as NS1 was. Thats the only point I have about ns2. I dont have some "misguided" love for NS1 that I cant see beyond, I just dont see ns2 being as dynamic, or enjoyable as NS1 was, and the direction it is going, does not show promise for ever being that way.
I know alot of people who have the same concerns as you, and many of us have been very vocal about the whole thing, but in alot of ways feel ignored.
NS2 just isnt what NS1 was, and it may never be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:/
That is unfortunate, I was ecstatic when I heard about this sequel, but it feels like a completely different game. I have to wonder if UWE actually knows what people loved about NS1 when they set out to make NS2...
NS2 is better than ns1 and its still in beta. Its no longer all about bunnyhop and how good aim you have, its more teamplay and teamwork. I can't wait to see exo suit.
<!--quoteo(post=1933355:date=May 3 2012, 11:33 PM:name=aldea-queso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aldea-queso @ May 3 2012, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is better than ns1 and its still in beta. Its no longer all about bunnyhop and how good aim you have, its more teamplay and teamwork. I can't wait to see exo suit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
invTempestJoin Date: 2003-03-02Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933355:date=May 3 2012, 10:33 PM:name=aldea-queso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aldea-queso @ May 3 2012, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is better than ns1 and its still in beta. Its no longer all about bunnyhop and how good aim you have, its more teamplay and teamwork. I can't wait to see exo suit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 - I would advise aldea-queso to stop posting as he is obviously trying to stir up the pot.
Do you ever get the feeling like someone from the inside is trying to set you up so that they can ban you? Wonder why I'm getting this feeling right now.
I've been following ns2's progress quietly for a long time and i have to agree with the op, much of what i loved about ns1 is missing or altered in a bad way in ns2. I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.
<!--quoteo(post=1933368:date=May 4 2012, 06:52 AM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ May 4 2012, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been following ns2's progress quietly for a long time and i have to agree with the op, much of what i loved about ns1 is missing or altered in a bad way in ns2. I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does active player count bother the developers at all? I don't play much NS2 not because of performance issues or it is a "beta", I don't play it because it isn't all that fun. Why all the restrictions/changes from NS1 to NS2. You guys don't need to reinvent your game, just improve it, not over complicate it with things like clogs.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933368:date=May 4 2012, 07:52 AM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ May 4 2012, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been following ns2's progress quietly for a long time and i have to agree with the op, much of what i loved about ns1 is missing or altered in a bad way in ns2. I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1933437:date=May 4 2012, 04:12 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 4 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Does active player count bother the developers at all? I don't play much NS2 not because of performance issues or it is a "beta", I don't play it because it isn't all that fun. Why all the restrictions/changes from NS1 to NS2. You guys don't need to reinvent your game, just improve it, not over complicate it with things like clogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1933365:date=May 4 2012, 01:27 AM:name=SilverAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SilverAx @ May 4 2012, 01:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never liked bhopping.
I agree that what kept NS1 'fresh' for all this time was being able to be dynamic.
Too many restrictions are never a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
re: bhopping. while this is a loaded term - the idea of strafejump/air control acceleration has been a *standard* for so long. for that reason alone it is a better mechanic than wall jumping. Originally I didnt care. Sure using walls makes more 'sense', but in reality walls are just another layer added in between you and the core thing your are trying to accomplish. I've come around on this.
now let me add that I dont think wall jumping is fundamentally flawed & I'm sure it will end up working fine. I just dont think bhopping was this big problem that needed to be solved/replaced.
it sure has led to some entertaining posts here though.
<!--quoteo(post=1933480:date=May 4 2012, 05:55 PM:name=jbaker8935)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jbaker8935 @ May 4 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->re: bhopping. while this is a loaded term - the idea of strafejump/air control acceleration has been a *standard* for so long. for that reason alone it is a better mechanic than wall jumping. Originally I didnt care. Sure using walls makes more 'sense', but in reality walls are just another layer added in between you and the core thing your are trying to accomplish. I've come around on this.
now let me add that I dont think wall jumping is fundamentally flawed & I'm sure it will end up working fine. I just dont think bhopping was this big problem that needed to be solved/replaced.
it sure has led to some entertaining posts here though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would agree that the limiting of building to certain areas is a step backwards. Like many have said some of the most memorable moments come from building bases/defense in strange locations and all the strategy that comes with it.
Gorges.... They just aren't fun to play right now, the spit is worthless and needs to be buffed. Also you can't build hydras without infestation, they just feel really ponderous atm.
Phase gating to a hive.... This is still possible but limited by infestation vision, I kind of like the idea of infestation vision though so I dunno.
Reiterations of the same concept with the same mechanics are a nostalgic artifact that needs to accept its death. There will be deviations because it is a new game, and if you wish to play the same game then you can either make mods, or go play the original.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933625:date=May 5 2012, 12:26 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 5 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reiterations of the same concept with the same mechanics are a nostalgic artifact that needs to accept its death. There will be deviations because it is a new game, and if you wish to play the same game then you can either make mods, or go play the original.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is basically it. Things will change. For different reasons. The big thing to understand is that NS2 is an undertaking much in the same way NS1 was, it evolved and NS2 shall as well
<!--quoteo(post=1933626:date=May 5 2012, 04:39 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ May 5 2012, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is basically it. Things will change. For different reasons. The big thing to understand is that NS2 is an undertaking much in the same way NS1 was, it evolved and NS2 shall as well<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it doesnt need to be this way. Go crazy once you have a solid NS2 and you create NS3. Why change what wasnt broken? NS1 was years of hard work and balancing and they threw it all out the window.
Tap into that nostalgia so you get your old fan base back since as a small company the community is what you are really relying on for a chunk of opening sales.
The one change i dont like but can understand is the Res model. It would be hard to scale it to different player sizes, but why ravage the rest of the game? A lot of members have posted very well thought out threads on why some of the changes never fixed the original problem, and they only added more problems which required more off the wall solutions (see what i did there).
If you are ok with NS2 turning into COD:AliensVsMarines then i am sad you gave up your original love of NS to back the direction NS2 is heading.
Now i am NOT talking about the current state of things. I know Marines have no end game and we are close to feature complete. UWE is balancing to make the Beta fun to play so they can continue to promote it since they are going against HUGE companies who, as has been said before, have very polished betas. They rely heavily on the community for free advertising and their near religious fever for this game. I understand all this.
What makes me cringe from this game is they took ideas from NS:Combat and added it to Classic. While doing this they lowered EVERY skill ceiling for EVERY weapon, movement system, and lifeform.
They are selling out in a way to appease the masses and give them COD:AliensVsMarines, but i can't blame them. They need money and NS2 is unique enough to stand on it's own legs and make a big splash. What makes me truly sad is players will never experience a game like NS1 ever again. Not even the creators were willing to take a chance and throw their game in the faces of the main stream. Call me an Emo Gamer but i hate the games of today. In the end if i was in UWE's shoes i would probably go the same way if my livelihood was on the line (though i am pretty damn stubborn).
There is a fairly good article on gamasutra that talks about sequels that have mixed reviews and goes into a little detail about (according to the author) what gamers want and expect in a followup.
Here is a little snippet from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37152/Analysis_Can_A_Good_Game_Be_A_Bad_Sequel.php" target="_blank">that article.</a> "Especially with sequels, what gamers want is more than just general "fun" (if there was such a thing) but <b>a specific experience rooted in their memories of the game.</b> A good game, then, is what a gamer wants. When this gamer goes to a store and looks at the boxes on the shelves, all we know is that the one that she won't return is not the "best" game but the one that meets her expectations."
It is not only a philosophy I share as a developer, but as a gamer. I'm not trying to troll or say UWE should do this or that as I stated in my original post, just providing feedback to them as all developers (including myself) always want be it positive or negative, and I certainly don't think my opinion is useless.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933682:date=May 5 2012, 04:29 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 5 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There is a fairly good article on gamasutra that talks about sequels that have mixed reviews and goes into a little detail about (according to the author) what gamers want and expect in a followup.
Here is a little snippet from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37152/Analysis_Can_A_Good_Game_Be_A_Bad_Sequel.php" target="_blank">that article.</a> "Especially with sequels, what gamers want is more than just general "fun" (if there was such a thing) but <b>a specific experience rooted in their memories of the game.</b> A good game, then, is what a gamer wants. When this gamer goes to a store and looks at the boxes on the shelves, all we know is that the one that she won't return is not the "best" game but the one that meets her expectations."
It is not only a philosophy I share as a developer, but as a gamer. I'm not trying to troll or say UWE should do this or that as I stated in my original post, just providing feedback to them as all developers (including myself) always want be it positive or negative, and I certainly don't think my opinion is useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1933368:date=May 3 2012, 10:52 PM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ May 3 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been following ns2's progress quietly for a long time and i have to agree with the op, much of what i loved about ns1 is missing or altered in a bad way in ns2. I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933693:date=May 5 2012, 05:39 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 5 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Man, reading this just made me sad.. I miss NS :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1933368:date=May 4 2012, 03:52 PM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ May 4 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933368"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been following ns2's progress quietly for a long time and i have to agree with the op, much of what i loved about ns1 is missing or altered in a bad way in ns2. I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know what is funny this same freedom to build do what every you want is what made Minecraft so bloody successful as well...
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933701:date=May 5 2012, 06:19 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ May 5 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what is funny this same freedom to build do what every you want is what made Minecraft so bloody successful as well...
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
There is not enough focus on fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. Feels like UWE is weighing too much importance to competetive gaming and balance.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933704:date=May 5 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True. Feels like UWE is weighing too much importance to competetive gaming and balance.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...what? Are you on drugs? Not a single one of the changes they've made have been to the benefit of "competitive gaming and balance". Pretty much every change from ns1 has been an attempt to make it more compelling for "casual gamers".
<!--quoteo(post=1933701:date=May 5 2012, 04:19 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ May 5 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what is funny this same freedom to build do what every you want is what made Minecraft so bloody successful as well...
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
There is not enough focus on fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Welllll I wouldn't say they were minor, public servers in NS1 had a tendency to be pretty ###### awful all around (this became less later on, but only through the increased competence of the playing public, which you can't bank on if you're making a mainstream game). They just went about that entirely the wrong way in NS2, namely by not really directly adressing the issues, and just introduce more mechanics that didn't actually solve a damn thing, but only introduce more things to fix. It's hard to remain sympathetic to their development-misère when they keep giving themself more work with these things.
<!--quoteo(post=1933704:date=May 5 2012, 05:29 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 5 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True. Feels like UWE is weighing too much importance to competetive gaming and balance.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, many older competetive players are thinking that NS2 is just another completely casual oriented game. I think right now the UWE folks trying to get the game into a shape where it can ship - which involves quite a bit of balancing and refining regardless of the actual design priorities such as competetive or casual play.
Also, I think right now competetive games probably suffer less from some issues - such as stalemates-, which makes them suitable for showcasing NS2. That's probably at least part of the reason why there's so much visibility for the comp games now. I certainly appreciate any 'official' visibility and interest towards the comp play while it lasts, but I in no way expect it to last further than it suits UWE's own purposes.
Edit: And I by no means mean any of the present comp support as negative regardless of the motives they have. I just expect UWE to work like a smart company does, everything added to that is a bonus if it ends up going that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1933706:date=May 5 2012, 12:35 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ May 5 2012, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much every change from ns1 has been an attempt to make it more compelling for "casual gamers".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not just that, but <i>at the cost of competitive play and balance</i>. Casual and competitive play aren't mutually exclusive (TF2, Quake Live, Starcraft 2, Counterstrike...are all good examples) but a lot of people in this community act like they are. Dare I say it seems to influence the developers..?
Please stop "Streamlining" games and remember that freedom of gameplay is the whole reason we want to play games.
If we wanted rails and limits, we'd go outside into the real world.
This means let me drop my chairs wherever I want.
Also the gorge is worthless. No one wants to spend 10 res and heal spray a hive or a weak resource tower that will just die in 10 seconds. If that is the "big plan" for the gorge then good luck with that.
This game looks more and more like it was produced by EA.
/I hope this doesn't sound too angry or bad, I'm not trying to tell devs what to do obviously so please do not take this the wrong way.
Comments
logical & cool, but an unnecessary complication. can live with it though.
arcs are mostly coolness, but have mobility & dont need support buildings. probably should be more rare & robust (not spammable unless res dominance). to ninja, i guess you'd need a sneaky robo factory. as for the arc procession - closest analog i can think of in NS1 is the heavy/hmg/welder train that would start from a marine base & go kill a hive.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#Beta" target="_blank">Yeah?</a> Seems like a bit of a mistake to me. Not just the fact that it's called a beta, either. The mistake is believing that the OP's caring about missing core gameplay elements does not belong in a beta. It belongs in an alpha (which was clearly not completed properly), and it belongs in a beta too (since adding the things that make it "NS" after release is incredibly foolish). This isn't just a gripe about word choice - we can see all around us the problems that come with giving thousands of biased players (who are not game designers) access to an NS game that doesn't have celerity or heavies in it.
Posting "it's a beta" everywhere isn't cool anymore okay?
I know alot of people who have the same concerns as you, and many of us have been very vocal about the whole thing, but in alot of ways feel ignored.
NS2 just isnt what NS1 was, and it may never be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:/
That is unfortunate, I was ecstatic when I heard about this sequel, but it feels like a completely different game. I have to wonder if UWE actually knows what people loved about NS1 when they set out to make NS2...
you're bad
<!--quoteo(post=1933361:date=May 3 2012, 11:13 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 3 2012, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're bad<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 - I would advise aldea-queso to stop posting as he is obviously trying to stir up the pot.
Do you ever get the feeling like someone from the inside is trying to set you up so that they can ban you? Wonder why I'm getting this feeling right now.
I agree that what kept NS1 'fresh' for all this time was being able to be dynamic.
Too many restrictions are never a good thing.
Lmao. I read what he typed and then I realized he was calling himself bad.
I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.
I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does active player count bother the developers at all? I don't play much NS2 not because of performance issues or it is a "beta", I don't play it because it isn't all that fun. Why all the restrictions/changes from NS1 to NS2. You guys don't need to reinvent your game, just improve it, not over complicate it with things like clogs.
I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.
in ns2 they took away a lot of the freedom that ns1 had, for example marines can't build anywhere anymore... imagine if starcraft2 forced you to build only within the vicinity of your main base and or expansions... that would really take away a lot from the game, all the proxy buildings, hidden pylons, hidden tech, etc. Blizzard knew that this was a core part of what made sc1 so good, so they made sure to keep it in sc2.
Dont fix what ain't broken, i understand that ns2 is a sequel to ns1 and that they won't be the same, we're not asking to make them the same, we're simply asking to keep what made ns1 so great in ns2 much like blizzard kept what made sc1 so great in sc2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1933437:date=May 4 2012, 04:12 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 4 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Does active player count bother the developers at all? I don't play much NS2 not because of performance issues or it is a "beta", I don't play it because it isn't all that fun. Why all the restrictions/changes from NS1 to NS2. You guys don't need to reinvent your game, just improve it, not over complicate it with things like clogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
I agree that what kept NS1 'fresh' for all this time was being able to be dynamic.
Too many restrictions are never a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
re: bhopping. while this is a loaded term - the idea of strafejump/air control acceleration has been a *standard* for so long. for that reason alone it is a better mechanic than wall jumping. Originally I didnt care. Sure using walls makes more 'sense', but in reality walls are just another layer added in between you and the core thing your are trying to accomplish. I've come around on this.
now let me add that I dont think wall jumping is fundamentally flawed & I'm sure it will end up working fine. I just dont think bhopping was this big problem that needed to be solved/replaced.
it sure has led to some entertaining posts here though.
now let me add that I dont think wall jumping is fundamentally flawed & I'm sure it will end up working fine. I just dont think bhopping was this big problem that needed to be solved/replaced.
it sure has led to some entertaining posts here though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Gorges.... They just aren't fun to play right now, the spit is worthless and needs to be buffed. Also you can't build hydras without infestation, they just feel really ponderous atm.
Phase gating to a hive.... This is still possible but limited by infestation vision, I kind of like the idea of infestation vision though so I dunno.
This stuff came up years ago.
NS2 will sell ok on steam, it presents well.
But it was always a gamble to sell ns2 on the original then make so many core gameplay changes.
I think this is basically it. Things will change. For different reasons. The big thing to understand is that NS2 is an undertaking much in the same way NS1 was, it evolved and NS2 shall as well
But it doesnt need to be this way. Go crazy once you have a solid NS2 and you create NS3. Why change what wasnt broken? NS1 was years of hard work and balancing and they threw it all out the window.
Tap into that nostalgia so you get your old fan base back since as a small company the community is what you are really relying on for a chunk of opening sales.
The one change i dont like but can understand is the Res model. It would be hard to scale it to different player sizes, but why ravage the rest of the game? A lot of members have posted very well thought out threads on why some of the changes never fixed the original problem, and they only added more problems which required more off the wall solutions (see what i did there).
If you are ok with NS2 turning into COD:AliensVsMarines then i am sad you gave up your original love of NS to back the direction NS2 is heading.
Now i am NOT talking about the current state of things. I know Marines have no end game and we are close to feature complete. UWE is balancing to make the Beta fun to play so they can continue to promote it since they are going against HUGE companies who, as has been said before, have very polished betas. They rely heavily on the community for free advertising and their near religious fever for this game. I understand all this.
What makes me cringe from this game is they took ideas from NS:Combat and added it to Classic. While doing this they lowered EVERY skill ceiling for EVERY weapon, movement system, and lifeform.
They are selling out in a way to appease the masses and give them COD:AliensVsMarines, but i can't blame them. They need money and NS2 is unique enough to stand on it's own legs and make a big splash. What makes me truly sad is players will never experience a game like NS1 ever again. Not even the creators were willing to take a chance and throw their game in the faces of the main stream. Call me an Emo Gamer but i hate the games of today. In the end if i was in UWE's shoes i would probably go the same way if my livelihood was on the line (though i am pretty damn stubborn).
Sad Panda - (")( ; - ; )(")
/wrist
Here is a little snippet from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37152/Analysis_Can_A_Good_Game_Be_A_Bad_Sequel.php" target="_blank">that article.</a>
"Especially with sequels, what gamers want is more than just general "fun" (if there was such a thing) but <b>a specific experience rooted in their memories of the game.</b> A good game, then, is what a gamer wants. When this gamer goes to a store and looks at the boxes on the shelves, all we know is that the one that she won't return is not the "best" game but the one that meets her expectations."
It is not only a philosophy I share as a developer, but as a gamer. I'm not trying to troll or say UWE should do this or that as I stated in my original post, just providing feedback to them as all developers (including myself) always want be it positive or negative, and I certainly don't think my opinion is useless.
There is a fairly good article on gamasutra that talks about sequels that have mixed reviews and goes into a little detail about (according to the author) what gamers want and expect in a followup.
Here is a little snippet from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37152/Analysis_Can_A_Good_Game_Be_A_Bad_Sequel.php" target="_blank">that article.</a>
"Especially with sequels, what gamers want is more than just general "fun" (if there was such a thing) but <b>a specific experience rooted in their memories of the game.</b> A good game, then, is what a gamer wants. When this gamer goes to a store and looks at the boxes on the shelves, all we know is that the one that she won't return is not the "best" game but the one that meets her expectations."
It is not only a philosophy I share as a developer, but as a gamer. I'm not trying to troll or say UWE should do this or that as I stated in my original post, just providing feedback to them as all developers (including myself) always want be it positive or negative, and I certainly don't think my opinion is useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true.
I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.
I remember this one game, i sneaked to the marines start early on through the vents, we had sc upgrade, i hid in a nearby room, turned into a gorge, built a sc and then proceeded to build an entire front base right there, it was really amazing the freedom that we had in ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man, reading this just made me sad.. I miss NS :(
Me too. :(
I loved the freedom that ns1 had, you can build anywhere, and i truely mean anywhere... my best moments as a gorge were when i would built a mini-base in the weirdest places, like underwater with dc for constant heal, and we would hide and travel underwater dumbfounding the marines, awesome moments. Or build a base in a vent which had some space, that was really cool too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what is funny this same freedom to build do what every you want is what made Minecraft so bloody successful as well...
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
There is not enough focus on fun!
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
There is not enough focus on fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. Feels like UWE is weighing too much importance to competetive gaming and balance.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...what? Are you on drugs? Not a single one of the changes they've made have been to the benefit of "competitive gaming and balance". Pretty much every change from ns1 has been an attempt to make it more compelling for "casual gamers".
I think the dev's are to focused on balance and in their minds have blown out of proportion the problems which NS1 had which in all honestly where fairly minor..
There is not enough focus on fun!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welllll I wouldn't say they were minor, public servers in NS1 had a tendency to be pretty ###### awful all around (this became less later on, but only through the increased competence of the playing public, which you can't bank on if you're making a mainstream game). They just went about that entirely the wrong way in NS2, namely by not really directly adressing the issues, and just introduce more mechanics that didn't actually solve a damn thing, but only introduce more things to fix. It's hard to remain sympathetic to their development-misère when they keep giving themself more work with these things.
Unlike NS1, theres just not enough fun stuff to do as "for fun" or casual gamer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, many older competetive players are thinking that NS2 is just another completely casual oriented game. I think right now the UWE folks trying to get the game into a shape where it can ship - which involves quite a bit of balancing and refining regardless of the actual design priorities such as competetive or casual play.
Also, I think right now competetive games probably suffer less from some issues - such as stalemates-, which makes them suitable for showcasing NS2. That's probably at least part of the reason why there's so much visibility for the comp games now. I certainly appreciate any 'official' visibility and interest towards the comp play while it lasts, but I in no way expect it to last further than it suits UWE's own purposes.
Edit: And I by no means mean any of the present comp support as negative regardless of the motives they have. I just expect UWE to work like a smart company does, everything added to that is a bonus if it ends up going that way.
Not just that, but <i>at the cost of competitive play and balance</i>. Casual and competitive play aren't mutually exclusive (TF2, Quake Live, Starcraft 2, Counterstrike...are all good examples) but a lot of people in this community act like they are. Dare I say it seems to influence the developers..?
If we wanted rails and limits, we'd go outside into the real world.
This means let me drop my chairs wherever I want.
Also the gorge is worthless. No one wants to spend 10 res and heal spray a hive or a weak resource tower that will just die in 10 seconds. If that is the "big plan" for the gorge then good luck with that.
This game looks more and more like it was produced by EA.
/I hope this doesn't sound too angry or bad, I'm not trying to tell devs what to do obviously so please do not take this the wrong way.