<!--quoteo(post=1933213:date=May 3 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the fact that a single ARC will just completely shut down a whip rush. (Which is the real issue imo)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're at the point of the game where u have arcs and whip rushes, i think u can find a lerk to bb the arc, or an onos that can completely disable the arc from quite a distance.
<!--quoteo(post=1933159:date=May 4 2012, 05:06 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 4 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Excuse me dear sir, but you need to be nicer. You should also get your facts straight before making a criticism like this.
2250 + 4x125 = 2750/1200. That's four salvos. Which is 24 seconds. Do you think it should take longer than 24 seconds for bombard to take out an IP? Jeeesh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2750/1200 is actually 2.3 or 3 salvos (nevermind that the changelog actually says damage to armour is half instead of the 4 times less that light damage does). I said it was almost half the hp of an IP, and it is. Which is a one shot with only 3 whips or only 6 seconds with 2 whips if you want to put it that way.
It isn't actually anywhere near 24 seconds :s.. No one actually uses one whip when attacking marine bases with marines in them and after figuring out the damage maths behind whip bombard ever will. I was being realistic. With lerk bilebomb it also isn't unrealistic to see the whip 2 shot partially damaged IP's. Even if one were to use 1 whip, it would be 12 seconds, not 24.
Bombard - Time 1 - 0s 2 - 6s 3 - 12s
I didn't mean to pick a fight or be rude. The damage is so high that i really only found it amusing in a non-personal way.
*edit* to put this all in perspective. All i would ever do is hilariously OP shade cloaked whip surprises to insta win games.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Build 207 is officially the build that killed my NS2 :( Performance has dropped by a few frames consistently since about 199, and now I am under 15 in an empty server on an unstarted game.
I know there is a mad rush for 2 weeks on performance, and I hope something good comes of it, as my low spec machine is now officially unable to run NS2 to any playable level.
I really hope 208 has at least some performance fixes, just have to concentrate on my own mods for 2 weeks...
So ya say NS2s gonna be alright now but how do you really know? And I know NS2s gonna be alright now cos that's the seed I sow woh oh And the universe told me that's how I that's how I think I know oh oh So ya say NS2s gonna be alright now and that's how I know
YbarraJoin Date: 2012-03-29Member: 149621Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933327:date=May 3 2012, 05:27 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ May 3 2012, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this came out today, felt it was very relevant to the way we argue our problems on here ;)
personally I don't like how structures the gorge has build will start to be destroyed after 60 seconds of that player not being a gorge anymore. I believe aliens spending the pRes to go gorge then build them and perhaps even going back to skulk or w/e just adds more strategy to the game. Just my opinion though.
Also massive arc rushes still seem to be a problem
Also Also it seems even if 1 side has all the res nodes and earning massive amounts of resources, it still takes a loooong time to take out the other team, can get very frustrating ><
<!--quoteo(post=1933349:date=May 4 2012, 04:14 AM:name=deaglecrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deaglecrazy @ May 4 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->personally I don't like how structures the gorge has build will start to be destroyed after 60 seconds of that player not being a gorge anymore. I believe aliens spending the pRes to go gorge then build them and perhaps even going back to skulk or w/e just adds more strategy to the game. Just my opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agree, so people are forced to go gorge and stay with 3 useless hydras? I don't understand this move, i guess its because a lot of people complain about that?! Gorge is totaly not worth the 10 res anymore, he is weak, his hydras get killed faster then you can heal them and you are damn slow. So whats the reason to go gorge now? Teamhealer? Like deaglecrazy said, it was TACTICAL to go gorge, build 3 hydras somewhere to defend (LIKE MARINES SENTRYS!) and then go back skulk. The harvester also die very quick, it feels awesome as marine, but as aliens, its hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1933349:date=May 4 2012, 04:14 AM:name=deaglecrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deaglecrazy @ May 4 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also massive arc rushes still seem to be a proble<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, i was latejoiner yesterday, i saw a train of arcs to the hive and no lie, it was 5 arcs, i count them, TWO HITS and the whole hive was gone, so crazy. Here you can see, after one hit the hive had 58% Do you know any alien attack which kill a marine structure with 2 hits in 5 seconds? So crazy. Image 1<a href="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg" target="_blank">http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg</a> Image 2<a href="http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg" target="_blank">http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1933254:date=May 3 2012, 04:43 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 3 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2750/1200 is actually 2.3 or 3 salvos (nevermind that the changelog actually says damage to armour is half instead of the 4 times less that light damage does). I said it was almost half the hp of an IP, and it is. Which is a one shot with only 3 whips or only 6 seconds with 2 whips if you want to put it that way.
It isn't actually anywhere near 24 seconds :s.. No one actually uses one whip when attacking marine bases with marines in them and after figuring out the damage maths behind whip bombard ever will. I was being realistic. With lerk bilebomb it also isn't unrealistic to see the whip 2 shot partially damaged IP's. Even if one were to use 1 whip, it would be 12 seconds, not 24.
Bombard - Time 1 - 0s 2 - 6s 3 - 12s
I didn't mean to pick a fight or be rude. The damage is so high that i really only found it amusing in a non-personal way.
*edit* to put this all in perspective. All i would ever do is hilariously OP shade cloaked whip surprises to insta win games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
curious
does arcs 1 shot whips?
or.. more importantly, how many arcs to 1shot whips and stop this possible ownage from happening :p
<!--quoteo(post=1933376:date=May 4 2012, 09:32 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ May 4 2012, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep, i was latejoiner yesterday, i saw a train of arcs to the hive and no lie, it was 5 arcs, i count them, TWO HITS and the whole hive was gone, so crazy. Here you can see, after one hit the hive had 58% Do you know any alien attack which kill a marine structure with 2 hits in 5 seconds? So crazy. Image 1<a href="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg" target="_blank">http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg</a> Image 2<a href="http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg" target="_blank">http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 arcs aren't that many, and as i said before, aliens already have the tech to stop arc pushes. If marines are so overpowered in a particular match cz they have been dominating the whole game.... well then its the aliens problem and aliens lose. What do u people expect? Do u expect to be losing the whole game, not getting any res or kills, and win in the end? Come on people, i think the bigger problem here is the community and not the arcs themselves. 5 arcs can be taken out before they even reach the closest tech point.
Its the same as 3-4 aliens going oni and rushing the cc. There is a possibility that marines won't even have time to kill one of them before they destroy the cc.
It's all a matter of perspective and of the community. I'm not saying that the arcs or some other features are balanced YET, but the game is on a good track and when tier3 for aliens rolls out, the whole argument is going to start over again. In my opinion these types of conversations are quite useless at this point of development... maybe after next patch when shift rolls out.
Edit2: Your onos should've been stomping them, not hitting them.
<!--quoteo(post=1933376:date=May 4 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ May 4 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933376"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know any alien attack which kill a marine structure with 2 hits in 5 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 skulks all biting on a marine structure can take it down pretty fast
I've been playing for a few hours now, and I enjoy the game from an overal strategic standpoint a lot (the thrust and riposte, the gaining of forward bases, and losing them again.) I feel the overall balance between aliens and marines is actually really good this patch, though the way it has been accomplished has made actually playing aliens far less enjoyable. The skulk doesn't feel right anymore (hit reg is unpredictable and it breaks the flow for me), the lerk is just slow, the gorge for me has lost all appeal, the fade is ok, and the onos is too ponderous (think giant slug, not gorilla, please make him have momentum instead of slowness).
So yes, this is one of the first patches where I feel that at least in public games, the game is starting to get balanced.
And tbh, for me one of the reasons I could lately understand the opinion that some devs might not play enough competitive games in general is based on charlie saying in one of the livecasts how he didn't understand how lag played a role when there was prediction involved. This is such a basic item of competitive twitch based gaming, such "common knowledge", it surpised me very much to hear him say that. But I suspect I simply misunderstood or it was taken out of context. And it sure as hell doesn't mean we can just start insulting people who spent most of their time making an awesome game for us (even if they're doing it for money, ns1 and a lot of ns2 isn't nescesary to make money).
I have to disagree with the Skulk not beeing right. The skulk is so contolable, the walljumping is great now, you can do saltos and reapear at the same place where you started the jump and he is finally a ###### angry dog!
The problem of hitreg isn't a problem. Now as skulk you need to aim correctly at the marine, if you just aim 1mm beside him you don't hit. So now you also need to aim, some builds ago the hits regged even if you looked 1m beside the marine.
The reason why the Lerk is so "slow" (11m/s) is that 1. Celerity will come and if the Lerk would still be at 13m/s and cara gives +4m/s (just a random number) he would be 17m/s fast --> thus unhittable. 2. Also the reduction of his speed helps him to fit in his role, DoT/support, and not a fly that evades elephants while pooing on them.
But I agree on the Gorge and for the Onos I didn't found a good way to play him beside as Troller, Distraction or just stomping a marine all the time so atleast 1 Marine turned to be usless. But I hope celerity will fix some things.
I only agree in regards to the lerk and gorge personally, I think skulk gameplay is really enjoyable, and early game skulk vs marine gameplay is balanced and really fun (unstable performance and hit reg aside, which is only temporarily). Too bad it's so short, I always feel incredibly cheesy going fade or onos 6 and 8-10 min into the game respectively and completely dominating. IMO the onos is pretty good and most people just need to learn to play him a little more defensively. I've seen a lot of people fail as onos primarily because they just rush into a team of marines and expect to live, when in fact they need to play more careful and should always have support when facing off against a large group of marines. (Or stomp/surprise element :P) The charge feels better, though the big slowdown afterwards can be a bit frustrating.
The onos does seem to fall off a little lategame, while he can dominate early on, once W3 and A3 hits it's really hard for him to stay competitive against a team that knows what they're doing. (This is IMO because they have nerfed things like hide armour, to give marines a better chance to counter him early game, somewhat oblivious to the fact that this also adversely affects the onos lategame) Ideally he should scale stronger from early to late game, through some sort of tech or maturation process (Be a little weaker early game, but stronger late)
This is true in regards to the fade as well IMO, it would be much better if he too would scale throughout the game. (This way he would be less of a faceroll lifeform early game and still be viable lategame) Either they need to scale these higher lifeforms or they just need to significantly hit the time at which you can unlock them. (So that by the time they do come out, marines are better equipped to deal with them, though that doesn't solve the issue of their viability lategame)
Note I wasn't commenting balance wise. I feel the power of all the lifeforms is pretty good.
For the skulk, I don't think the movement has changed in the last 2 patches, and I kinda like them. What I was talking about is the "feel" of the skulk, how when I attack a marine, I feel the bite should have some width, not be a straight crosshair on the screen. The old skulk bite was much more enjoyable to me because it felt right, the hits I felt should land, actually landed, and the hits I felt should miss, missed. The fact that I can do the same attack 5 times, and have different results for each somehow feels too random for me, which frustrates me. I can still kill marines about as effectively, it's just the feel that's off.
For the lerk it's the same, I can kill people, I can survive where I should survive, but the sheer joy of soaring through the air of the last few patches is gone now. The lerk now feels utilitarian instead of graceful.
And the same with the onos, especially with currently the entire alien team having 100res pretty much 90% of the mid/endgame on publics, it should be easy to kill as it is now. It's just that the flow of playing an onos doesn't make sense to me. One moment I'm careening at high speed, I can't make corners but that makes sense. Then all of a sudden, I stop charging and I go down to being the slowest snail, but which can turn on a dime. I'd prefer the charge to be acceleration, building of momentum, and when going fast I can't turn easily, but not that after leaving the charge key, I sudden am slow as ###### and wailing about after marines that have suddenly stopped being in danger.
I repeat, it's not the balance or the power of the lifeforms, except the gorge. It's the sheer enjoyment of playing this wonderfully maneuverable skulk, this soaring lerk, this massive force of nature (onos), which is somewhat diminished in these last few patches. The aesthetic of flow and interaction, immersion and enjoyment of skill and mastery.
I think/hope it will come back, but I also feel that it is something that shouldn't be overlooked while focussing on balancing. I would much prefer to enjoy the game, than for it to be balanced (extreme ofc, but just to make the point)
Well, few more 207 games now and all I can say is thank you for ruining the gorge. :|
Sure it needed a bit tuning back from the 206 changes, but having all the nerfs at once is just too much. The buildings start to melt the second you die; with the new spawn system all your cysts&hydras are down to 30% by the time you respawn. Add to that bugging wave spawn system that first rolls 17 seconds, then waits "Waiting for spawn" couple of seconds before starting new countdown even if there were eggs.
And capped to 3 Hydras, that only hit targets if they stay still? Early in game without armor upgrades had chance to lure a marine middle of 3 hydras and barely managed to kill him that way. And since marines rarely rush middle of alien territory alone - yeah, not worth it.
Not to mention now that alien RTs go down from 3 rifle mags, it's near impossible to keep RT alive even if you'd camp behind it healing non-stop. Against 1 marine, barely, against more than that you can just watch the RT die after running out of stamina to heal.
Until these nerfs are tuned back I won't even bother playing gorge anymore; much as I enjoy supporting the team now it's only good for holding mouse 2 down. I don't seem to be alone with the last bit since in last game I was in, aliens had no gorges at all.
I seriously don't get why Aliens needed all these nerfs lately. I've seen marines solo down hives with just GL&jetpack, and still they have to have derptanks that blow things up through the walls..
Shooting skulks as a marine feels better this patch :)
I think the onos is doing too much damage against power nodes though. I have lost a couple of games where we had good map control but an onos and friend destroyed the power in about 6 seconds it seemed like, we lost after that.
I think the game should use a players screen name stored in steam aka the profile name like many other steam enabled games do (DoW2 or TF2 for example).
<!--quoteo(post=1933631:date=May 5 2012, 07:28 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ May 5 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the game should use a players screen name stored in steam aka the profile name like many other steam enabled games do (DoW2 or TF2 for example).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For build 207 there is finally a good reason for the Marines to get a 2.CC! Nanoconstruct is just great! Building a Robo in 3s! I enjoyed the last rounds as Com, because my troops could fight longer now and aren't so voulnerable anymore when building an RT alone. Now I can save my scans for beacon or more important scans, than doing a scan for a Marine building the next 10s.
As Alien Com I love the drifters. They are perfect cheap scouts and placing Drifters well, f.e. in the Marinebase out of Obs range, can deside a game win because Aliens know if there are Marines in the base or not. Only the UI seems overcomplicated now! You should implement the menumod till the new Gui and menu comes in, it makes the whole NS2 expirience more enjoyable.
<!--quoteo(post=1933631:date=May 5 2012, 07:28 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ May 5 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the game should use a players screen name stored in steam aka the profile name like many other steam enabled games do (DoW2 or TF2 for example).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No thanks. Handling the name on a per-game basis is the superior way (and this is what NS2 does atm). Some people use completely different names for different games. Some wear a clan tag in game A, but not in game B. Some don't want ingame nick and Steam friends name to be the same. In all these cases using the Steam name is an annoyance.
Played a gather game on mineshaft, and while I ordinarily detest mineshaft, we actually won as both marines and aliens through teamwork, strategic map control (as rines we relocated to crushing) and pressure (as aliens we must have taken and lost refinery at least 4 times). This game gave me a renewed faith in ns2, and while I miss a lot of things, I love that this patch re-introduced strategic balance between rines and aliens.
tnx
(now plz fix gorge, skulk hit reg, lerk soaring, onos momentum and marine hitreg ;))
While I appreciate the enormous amount of work related stress developers go through. I think making such drastic balance changes every other patch is misguided. I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.
<!--quoteo(post=1933805:date=May 5 2012, 10:08 PM:name=DrStrangelove)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrStrangelove @ May 5 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I appreciate the enormous amount of work related stress developers go through. I think making such drastic balance changes every other patch is misguided. I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about the rapid pace. Whenever a change is made in a game the first week is usually full of people complaining about change, and the second week people accepting and adapting. You don't really get to see how your change is going to play out if you don't give the players time to adapt to it. Also what I've noticed is that a lot of the bigger buffs/nerfs that happen in NS2 are overkill, in that instead of x being nerfed for a feature you have x and y being nerfed making it incredibly hard to determine if either changed helped or was too much.
For example: This week we saw the Gorge lose the scaling on their hard limit for structures <b>AND</b> force them to recycle their buildings first <b>AND</b> a Hydra nerf <b>AND</b> their structures start dying when they die.
How are you supposed to know which of the four nerfs this week to Gorge actually helped, which were redundant, and which were bad when you have all four happening at once?
Another example being the Lerk. This week saw a bile bomb AoE nerf <b>AND</b> damage nerf <b>AND</b> damage type change; this in addition to the recent speed nerf.
Well.. I just got finished playing several games, and I was gonna come on here and rage.. but it seems several other people beat me to it and I'm now ashamed that I was going to in the first place. Seriously folks.. I don't care how old you are, try to act like an adult.
So, instead of raging I'm just going to say a few things:
First is this: <!--quoteo(post=1933806:date=May 5 2012, 08:11 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 5 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've noticed that a lot of the bigger buffs/nerfs that happen in NS2 are overkill, in that instead of x being nerfed for a feature you have x and y being nerfed making it incredibly hard to determine if either changed helped or was too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a very good observation, however I can see that the dev's are simply trying to fix the game so that it is playable (for us, which I do appreciate) while they go fix the real issues later on.
Second: I don't agree with the way the Gorge is heading. Since the Gorge doesn't build as in NS1, he needs a new role - and at present it looks like the role the devs are pushing for him is to be "helper" to the khamm. Personally I don't think this is a good role, I don't want to just run around and do what someone says.. I really can't imagine someone wanting to do that all the time. Even as a full time healer, there is nothing a fatty can do BUT heal. Take a look at Medics in TF2, they heal but they also buff (even different kinds of buffs), in a pinch they can support, and they can double as a debuff fighter by trading off their heals.
Now I'm not saying that Gorges will never get any other abilities - I'm sure they will. But I'd just like to say that I want to see the Gorge fighting on his own again at least sometimes - I believe it necessary as a player role, otherwise just make them MACs or Drifters.
Third: Gorge's are currently a nuisance and nothing more. As other have pointed out, the Hydras aren't useful in this build, and neither is the max of 3, but what I didn't see much of is the annoyance of the cysts which aren't real and the clogs which don't stop anyone. Points: -Khamm's need gorges to build structures otherwise everything builds too slow or the hive doesn't get the mist it needs, so the Khamm has to beg people to go Gorge. -If someone goes Gorge and drops cysts which the Khamm builds off of then changes to another class, the Khamm's chain starts dying and the Khamm wonders why. -The rate of healspray is so slow that a marine can kill a newborn harvester with his knife faster than the Gorge can heal it and/or kill the marine (happened to me twice tonight). While adrenaline will help this (if its being brought over), the Gorge shouldn't need an ability to be able to function properly (imo). -Clogs take so long to place that the Gorge can't build useful defenses in the front, currently they are used as a minor deterrent just in case a marine comes along. -Clogs don't stop a marine unless they are 2 high, but killing the lowest clog will drop the entire "wall" to single level and lets the marines just trot over the lot of them.
Got some suggestions, but I've still got some thinking to do.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1933805:date=May 5 2012, 09:08 PM:name=DrStrangelove)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrStrangelove @ May 5 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I appreciate the enormous amount of work related stress developers go through. I think making such drastic balance changes every other patch is misguided. I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things are going to be slowing down in the future to rectify this exact issue. A bit more thought out changes
Some suggestions on various topics of the current build: -Switch Bile Bomb back to Gorge and boost its damage and AOE back up. Gives the Gorge a reason to be in the front lines, a reason to be protected, and another task besides healing. Having Bile Bomb makes the Gorge into a builder/healer/demolisher, and more jobs = better.
-Replace the Lerk's ability with something that promotes teamwork on the alien side rather than a poison debuff vs marine structures - which is more of an annoyance since the Lerk is so fast. NS1 examples: Umbra, Primal Scream Non-NS1 ideas: WingFlap - propels spores in a sphere around a seated Lerk for cover, damage/pushes back marines slightly, reduces duration of fire from the flamethrower - but requires a 'build up' animation which marines can see (and therefore prevent). Could also provide a speed boost while in the air. Shriek - sonic attack which dazes marines in area in front of the Lerk blurring their vision. This shift would stop Lerks from being a loner player class and help them be more useful in a group. The Wingflap concept in particular would give the Lerk a LOT more versatility and use to be around.
-When building Clogs, have their build option stay active until the gorge presses a different ability key - and take away any wait time, so that the only limit is energy.
-Have Clog's health increase based on how many Clogs are touching it, and have them share that health so none die until the total health is gone. This doesn't mean they need to add together, two clogs could have 1.75 the health of one clog, 3 could have 2.25, etc. or some other diminishing return formula.
-Could also be nice to have Clogs "autobuild" certain structures based on whether they are on the ground or a wall, or if there is another clog nearby. For example - two clogs on walls across from each other could build a wall of that height; one on the floor and one the wall could build a wall of 'wall side' height and 'floor side' long; two clogs on the floor could create a wall of that width at however high is possible. Should this type of system be worked out, Clogs could be switched to a "number of walls" amount rather than number of clogs - the idea being to speed up building drastically. Walls could also start off weak and mature into true walls over time or via healspray like all other structures. Lets face it, 10 blocks isn't very fun or useful, and 30 blocks is a lot of fun but not all that useful either.
-Have Mature Mini-Cysts become true Cysts which are no longer connected to the Gorge. So Mini-Cyst placement is limited, but the Gorge is actually placing something that matters, and in a couple minutes will be able to place more. This concept of 'maturing to khamm control' could be applied to the other structures as well - though I can't think of how that would work atm, and it could be very bad as well.
-Remove the Cyst abilities from the Cysts and put them on the Khamm's screen next to Mist. When the Khamm activates it, all cysts on screen fire off the desired effect. Also change their AOE to affect any players on screen && on infestation so that they are actually useful, as opposed to only working 5 feet away from the cyst - which no one is paying attention to. (I have yet to see the abilities used by anyone but myself btw.. are they even still in this patch?) Keep the energy use on the Cysts themselves, so the Khamm can do this all over the map if they so wanted, but not in the same place over and over. Not to mention it would keep flamethrowers useful at preventing abilities.
-The Gorge Belly Slide isn't very useful right now, its so slow that there's no real point in using it except in rare cases where the gorge just happens to be going downhill - it certainly isn't as useful as the other lifeform's abilities. Why not leave the belly slide like it is for off infestation, but bring back the faster slide of a few builds ago while on infestation? Would make it so the Gorge is still easy to kill off infestation, but while on his own turf is a "master of his own home", like he really should be.
-Have Drifters go opaque for a moment on touch of marines or if a structure is placed on top of them - and bring back their ability to block marines building. Its a nice trick for those that know it and shouldn't be removed because people can't figure it out, just have to make it more user-friendly. Plus it doesn't make sense for a marine to be face humping a Drifter and not know why he can't walk forward. Another plus - it would require Khamm's to place their Drifters with some prudence.
Comments
If you're at the point of the game where u have arcs and whip rushes, i think u can find a lerk to bb the arc, or an onos that can completely disable the arc from quite a distance.
2250 + 4x125 = 2750/1200. That's four salvos. Which is 24 seconds. Do you think it should take longer than 24 seconds for bombard to take out an IP? Jeeesh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2750/1200 is actually 2.3 or 3 salvos (nevermind that the changelog actually says damage to armour is half instead of the 4 times less that light damage does). I said it was almost half the hp of an IP, and it is. Which is a one shot with only 3 whips or only 6 seconds with 2 whips if you want to put it that way.
It isn't actually anywhere near 24 seconds :s.. No one actually uses one whip when attacking marine bases with marines in them and after figuring out the damage maths behind whip bombard ever will. I was being realistic. With lerk bilebomb it also isn't unrealistic to see the whip 2 shot partially damaged IP's. Even if one were to use 1 whip, it would be 12 seconds, not 24.
Bombard - Time
1 - 0s
2 - 6s
3 - 12s
I didn't mean to pick a fight or be rude. The damage is so high that i really only found it amusing in a non-personal way.
*edit* to put this all in perspective. All i would ever do is hilariously OP shade cloaked whip surprises to insta win games.
I know there is a mad rush for 2 weeks on performance, and I hope something good comes of it, as my low spec machine is now officially unable to run NS2 to any playable level.
I really hope 208 has at least some performance fixes, just have to concentrate on my own mods for 2 weeks...
<a href="http://amultiverse.com/2012/05/03/two-scoops-of-truth/" target="_blank"><img src="http://amultiverse.com/files/comics/2012-05-03-Two-Scoops-Of-Truth.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
(note this is not intended to troll, just to lighten the mood slightly, if it's too much, I'll remove it)
(come on guys..)
but how do you really know?
And I know NS2s gonna be alright now
cos that's the seed I sow woh oh
And the universe told me that's how I
that's how I think I know oh oh
So ya say NS2s gonna be alright now
and that's how I know
Faith!
<a href="http://amultiverse.com/2012/05/03/two-scoops-of-truth/" target="_blank"><img src="http://amultiverse.com/files/comics/2012-05-03-Two-Scoops-Of-Truth.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
(note this is not intended to troll, just to lighten the mood slightly, if it's too much, I'll remove it)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got a good laugh out of that, thank you hehe :)
Also massive arc rushes still seem to be a problem
Also Also it seems even if 1 side has all the res nodes and earning massive amounts of resources, it still takes a loooong time to take out the other team, can get very frustrating
><
Thank you for good game UWE!
Agree, so people are forced to go gorge and stay with 3 useless hydras?
I don't understand this move, i guess its because a lot of people complain about that?!
Gorge is totaly not worth the 10 res anymore, he is weak, his hydras get killed faster then you can heal them and you are damn slow.
So whats the reason to go gorge now? Teamhealer?
Like deaglecrazy said, it was TACTICAL to go gorge, build 3 hydras somewhere to defend (LIKE MARINES SENTRYS!) and then go back skulk.
The harvester also die very quick, it feels awesome as marine, but as aliens, its hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1933349:date=May 4 2012, 04:14 AM:name=deaglecrazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deaglecrazy @ May 4 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also massive arc rushes still seem to be a proble<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, i was latejoiner yesterday, i saw a train of arcs to the hive and no lie, it was 5 arcs, i count them, TWO HITS and the whole hive was gone, so crazy.
Here you can see, after one hit the hive had 58%
Do you know any alien attack which kill a marine structure with 2 hits in 5 seconds?
So crazy.
Image 1<a href="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg" target="_blank">http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg</a>
Image 2<a href="http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg" target="_blank">http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg</a>
It isn't actually anywhere near 24 seconds :s.. No one actually uses one whip when attacking marine bases with marines in them and after figuring out the damage maths behind whip bombard ever will. I was being realistic. With lerk bilebomb it also isn't unrealistic to see the whip 2 shot partially damaged IP's. Even if one were to use 1 whip, it would be 12 seconds, not 24.
Bombard - Time
1 - 0s
2 - 6s
3 - 12s
I didn't mean to pick a fight or be rude. The damage is so high that i really only found it amusing in a non-personal way.
*edit* to put this all in perspective. All i would ever do is hilariously OP shade cloaked whip surprises to insta win games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
curious
does arcs 1 shot whips?
or.. more importantly, how many arcs to 1shot whips and stop this possible ownage from happening :p
Here you can see, after one hit the hive had 58%
Do you know any alien attack which kill a marine structure with 2 hits in 5 seconds?
So crazy.
Image 1<a href="http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg" target="_blank">http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7696/65612119.jpg</a>
Image 2<a href="http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg" target="_blank">http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3610/31131110.jpg</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5 arcs aren't that many, and as i said before, aliens already have the tech to stop arc pushes. If marines are so overpowered in a particular match cz they have been dominating the whole game.... well then its the aliens problem and aliens lose. What do u people expect? Do u expect to be losing the whole game, not getting any res or kills, and win in the end? Come on people, i think the bigger problem here is the community and not the arcs themselves. 5 arcs can be taken out before they even reach the closest tech point.
Its the same as 3-4 aliens going oni and rushing the cc. There is a possibility that marines won't even have time to kill one of them before they destroy the cc.
It's all a matter of perspective and of the community. I'm not saying that the arcs or some other features are balanced YET, but the game is on a good track and when tier3 for aliens rolls out, the whole argument is going to start over again. In my opinion these types of conversations are quite useless at this point of development... maybe after next patch when shift rolls out.
Edit2: Your onos should've been stomping them, not hitting them.
5 skulks all biting on a marine structure can take it down pretty fast
So yes, this is one of the first patches where I feel that at least in public games, the game is starting to get balanced.
And tbh, for me one of the reasons I could lately understand the opinion that some devs might not play enough competitive games in general is based on charlie saying in one of the livecasts how he didn't understand how lag played a role when there was prediction involved. This is such a basic item of competitive twitch based gaming, such "common knowledge", it surpised me very much to hear him say that. But I suspect I simply misunderstood or it was taken out of context. And it sure as hell doesn't mean we can just start insulting people who spent most of their time making an awesome game for us (even if they're doing it for money, ns1 and a lot of ns2 isn't nescesary to make money).
I have to disagree with the Skulk not beeing right. The skulk is so contolable, the walljumping is great now, you can do saltos and reapear at the same place where you started the jump and he is finally a ###### angry dog!
The problem of hitreg isn't a problem. Now as skulk you need to aim correctly at the marine, if you just aim 1mm beside him you don't hit. So now you also need to aim, some builds ago the hits regged even if you looked 1m beside the marine.
The reason why the Lerk is so "slow" (11m/s) is that 1. Celerity will come and if the Lerk would still be at 13m/s and cara gives +4m/s (just a random number) he would be 17m/s fast --> thus unhittable.
2. Also the reduction of his speed helps him to fit in his role, DoT/support, and not a fly that evades elephants while pooing on them.
But I agree on the Gorge and for the Onos I didn't found a good way to play him beside as Troller, Distraction or just stomping a marine all the time so atleast 1 Marine turned to be usless. But I hope celerity will fix some things.
The onos does seem to fall off a little lategame, while he can dominate early on, once W3 and A3 hits it's really hard for him to stay competitive against a team that knows what they're doing. (This is IMO because they have nerfed things like hide armour, to give marines a better chance to counter him early game, somewhat oblivious to the fact that this also adversely affects the onos lategame) Ideally he should scale stronger from early to late game, through some sort of tech or maturation process (Be a little weaker early game, but stronger late)
This is true in regards to the fade as well IMO, it would be much better if he too would scale throughout the game. (This way he would be less of a faceroll lifeform early game and still be viable lategame) Either they need to scale these higher lifeforms or they just need to significantly hit the time at which you can unlock them. (So that by the time they do come out, marines are better equipped to deal with them, though that doesn't solve the issue of their viability lategame)
For the skulk, I don't think the movement has changed in the last 2 patches, and I kinda like them. What I was talking about is the "feel" of the skulk, how when I attack a marine, I feel the bite should have some width, not be a straight crosshair on the screen. The old skulk bite was much more enjoyable to me because it felt right, the hits I felt should land, actually landed, and the hits I felt should miss, missed. The fact that I can do the same attack 5 times, and have different results for each somehow feels too random for me, which frustrates me. I can still kill marines about as effectively, it's just the feel that's off.
For the lerk it's the same, I can kill people, I can survive where I should survive, but the sheer joy of soaring through the air of the last few patches is gone now. The lerk now feels utilitarian instead of graceful.
And the same with the onos, especially with currently the entire alien team having 100res pretty much 90% of the mid/endgame on publics, it should be easy to kill as it is now. It's just that the flow of playing an onos doesn't make sense to me. One moment I'm careening at high speed, I can't make corners but that makes sense. Then all of a sudden, I stop charging and I go down to being the slowest snail, but which can turn on a dime. I'd prefer the charge to be acceleration, building of momentum, and when going fast I can't turn easily, but not that after leaving the charge key, I sudden am slow as ###### and wailing about after marines that have suddenly stopped being in danger.
I repeat, it's not the balance or the power of the lifeforms, except the gorge. It's the sheer enjoyment of playing this wonderfully maneuverable skulk, this soaring lerk, this massive force of nature (onos), which is somewhat diminished in these last few patches. The aesthetic of flow and interaction, immersion and enjoyment of skill and mastery.
I think/hope it will come back, but I also feel that it is something that shouldn't be overlooked while focussing on balancing. I would much prefer to enjoy the game, than for it to be balanced (extreme ofc, but just to make the point)
Sure it needed a bit tuning back from the 206 changes, but having all the nerfs at once is just too much. The buildings start to melt the second you die; with the new spawn system all your cysts&hydras are down to 30% by the time you respawn. Add to that bugging wave spawn system that first rolls 17 seconds, then waits "Waiting for spawn" couple of seconds before starting new countdown even if there were eggs.
And capped to 3 Hydras, that only hit targets if they stay still? Early in game without armor upgrades had chance to lure a marine middle of 3 hydras and barely managed to kill him that way. And since marines rarely rush middle of alien territory alone - yeah, not worth it.
Not to mention now that alien RTs go down from 3 rifle mags, it's near impossible to keep RT alive even if you'd camp behind it healing non-stop. Against 1 marine, barely, against more than that you can just watch the RT die after running out of stamina to heal.
Until these nerfs are tuned back I won't even bother playing gorge anymore; much as I enjoy supporting the team now it's only good for holding mouse 2 down. I don't seem to be alone with the last bit since in last game I was in, aliens had no gorges at all.
I seriously don't get why Aliens needed all these nerfs lately. I've seen marines solo down hives with just GL&jetpack, and still they have to have derptanks that blow things up through the walls..
I think the onos is doing too much damage against power nodes though. I have lost a couple of games where we had good map control but an onos and friend destroyed the power in about 6 seconds it seemed like, we lost after that.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118008" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=118008</a>
For build 207 there is finally a good reason for the Marines to get a 2.CC! Nanoconstruct is just great! Building a Robo in 3s!
I enjoyed the last rounds as Com, because my troops could fight longer now and aren't so voulnerable anymore when building an RT alone. Now I can save my scans for beacon or more important scans, than doing a scan for a Marine building the next 10s.
As Alien Com I love the drifters. They are perfect cheap scouts and placing Drifters well, f.e. in the Marinebase out of Obs range, can deside a game win because Aliens know if there are Marines in the base or not.
Only the UI seems overcomplicated now!
You should implement the menumod till the new Gui and menu comes in, it makes the whole NS2 expirience more enjoyable.
No thanks. Handling the name on a per-game basis is the superior way (and this is what NS2 does atm).
Some people use completely different names for different games. Some wear a clan tag in game A, but not in game B. Some don't want ingame nick and Steam friends name to be the same. In all these cases using the Steam name is an annoyance.
tnx
(now plz fix gorge, skulk hit reg, lerk soaring, onos momentum and marine hitreg ;))
I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.
I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about the rapid pace. Whenever a change is made in a game the first week is usually full of people complaining about change, and the second week people accepting and adapting. You don't really get to see how your change is going to play out if you don't give the players time to adapt to it. Also what I've noticed is that a lot of the bigger buffs/nerfs that happen in NS2 are overkill, in that instead of x being nerfed for a feature you have x and y being nerfed making it incredibly hard to determine if either changed helped or was too much.
For example: This week we saw the Gorge lose the scaling on their hard limit for structures <b>AND</b> force them to recycle their buildings first <b>AND</b> a Hydra nerf <b>AND</b> their structures start dying when they die.
How are you supposed to know which of the four nerfs this week to Gorge actually helped, which were redundant, and which were bad when you have all four happening at once?
Another example being the Lerk. This week saw a bile bomb AoE nerf <b>AND</b> damage nerf <b>AND</b> damage type change; this in addition to the recent speed nerf.
So, instead of raging I'm just going to say a few things:
First is this:
<!--quoteo(post=1933806:date=May 5 2012, 08:11 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 5 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've noticed that a lot of the bigger buffs/nerfs that happen in NS2 are overkill, in that instead of x being nerfed for a feature you have x and y being nerfed making it incredibly hard to determine if either changed helped or was too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a very good observation, however I can see that the dev's are simply trying to fix the game so that it is playable (for us, which I do appreciate) while they go fix the real issues later on.
Second:
I don't agree with the way the Gorge is heading. Since the Gorge doesn't build as in NS1, he needs a new role - and at present it looks like the role the devs are pushing for him is to be "helper" to the khamm. Personally I don't think this is a good role, I don't want to just run around and do what someone says.. I really can't imagine someone wanting to do that all the time. Even as a full time healer, there is nothing a fatty can do BUT heal. Take a look at Medics in TF2, they heal but they also buff (even different kinds of buffs), in a pinch they can support, and they can double as a debuff fighter by trading off their heals.
Now I'm not saying that Gorges will never get any other abilities - I'm sure they will. But I'd just like to say that I want to see the Gorge fighting on his own again at least sometimes - I believe it necessary as a player role, otherwise just make them MACs or Drifters.
Third:
Gorge's are currently a nuisance and nothing more. As other have pointed out, the Hydras aren't useful in this build, and neither is the max of 3, but what I didn't see much of is the annoyance of the cysts which aren't real and the clogs which don't stop anyone. Points:
-Khamm's need gorges to build structures otherwise everything builds too slow or the hive doesn't get the mist it needs, so the Khamm has to beg people to go Gorge.
-If someone goes Gorge and drops cysts which the Khamm builds off of then changes to another class, the Khamm's chain starts dying and the Khamm wonders why.
-The rate of healspray is so slow that a marine can kill a newborn harvester with his knife faster than the Gorge can heal it and/or kill the marine (happened to me twice tonight). While adrenaline will help this (if its being brought over), the Gorge shouldn't need an ability to be able to function properly (imo).
-Clogs take so long to place that the Gorge can't build useful defenses in the front, currently they are used as a minor deterrent just in case a marine comes along.
-Clogs don't stop a marine unless they are 2 high, but killing the lowest clog will drop the entire "wall" to single level and lets the marines just trot over the lot of them.
Got some suggestions, but I've still got some thinking to do.
I am all for revolutionary changes, but these must be very well planned out and should only come very sparingly. At the moment the game seems very badly thought out, while it was looking great around 201. Anyway I am eagerly waiting for the release version hope it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things are going to be slowing down in the future to rectify this exact issue. A bit more thought out changes
-Switch Bile Bomb back to Gorge and boost its damage and AOE back up. Gives the Gorge a reason to be in the front lines, a reason to be protected, and another task besides healing. Having Bile Bomb makes the Gorge into a builder/healer/demolisher, and more jobs = better.
-Replace the Lerk's ability with something that promotes teamwork on the alien side rather than a poison debuff vs marine structures - which is more of an annoyance since the Lerk is so fast.
NS1 examples: Umbra, Primal Scream
Non-NS1 ideas:
WingFlap - propels spores in a sphere around a seated Lerk for cover, damage/pushes back marines slightly, reduces duration of fire from the flamethrower - but requires a 'build up' animation which marines can see (and therefore prevent). Could also provide a speed boost while in the air.
Shriek - sonic attack which dazes marines in area in front of the Lerk blurring their vision.
This shift would stop Lerks from being a loner player class and help them be more useful in a group. The Wingflap concept in particular would give the Lerk a LOT more versatility and use to be around.
-When building Clogs, have their build option stay active until the gorge presses a different ability key - and take away any wait time, so that the only limit is energy.
-Have Clog's health increase based on how many Clogs are touching it, and have them share that health so none die until the total health is gone. This doesn't mean they need to add together, two clogs could have 1.75 the health of one clog, 3 could have 2.25, etc. or some other diminishing return formula.
-Could also be nice to have Clogs "autobuild" certain structures based on whether they are on the ground or a wall, or if there is another clog nearby. For example - two clogs on walls across from each other could build a wall of that height; one on the floor and one the wall could build a wall of 'wall side' height and 'floor side' long; two clogs on the floor could create a wall of that width at however high is possible. Should this type of system be worked out, Clogs could be switched to a "number of walls" amount rather than number of clogs - the idea being to speed up building drastically. Walls could also start off weak and mature into true walls over time or via healspray like all other structures. Lets face it, 10 blocks isn't very fun or useful, and 30 blocks is a lot of fun but not all that useful either.
-Have Mature Mini-Cysts become true Cysts which are no longer connected to the Gorge. So Mini-Cyst placement is limited, but the Gorge is actually placing something that matters, and in a couple minutes will be able to place more. This concept of 'maturing to khamm control' could be applied to the other structures as well - though I can't think of how that would work atm, and it could be very bad as well.
-Remove the Cyst abilities from the Cysts and put them on the Khamm's screen next to Mist. When the Khamm activates it, all cysts on screen fire off the desired effect. Also change their AOE to affect any players on screen && on infestation so that they are actually useful, as opposed to only working 5 feet away from the cyst - which no one is paying attention to. (I have yet to see the abilities used by anyone but myself btw.. are they even still in this patch?) Keep the energy use on the Cysts themselves, so the Khamm can do this all over the map if they so wanted, but not in the same place over and over. Not to mention it would keep flamethrowers useful at preventing abilities.
-The Gorge Belly Slide isn't very useful right now, its so slow that there's no real point in using it except in rare cases where the gorge just happens to be going downhill - it certainly isn't as useful as the other lifeform's abilities. Why not leave the belly slide like it is for off infestation, but bring back the faster slide of a few builds ago while on infestation? Would make it so the Gorge is still easy to kill off infestation, but while on his own turf is a "master of his own home", like he really should be.
-Have Drifters go opaque for a moment on touch of marines or if a structure is placed on top of them - and bring back their ability to block marines building. Its a nice trick for those that know it and shouldn't be removed because people can't figure it out, just have to make it more user-friendly. Plus it doesn't make sense for a marine to be face humping a Drifter and not know why he can't walk forward. Another plus - it would require Khamm's to place their Drifters with some prudence.