Portable Turrets
MadFunk
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8986Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8986Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">And how to put an end to the ARC Train</div>I’ve been thinking about this one for a while, and I think I’ve finally figured out why I find it so compelling.
<b>Why not make Sentry Turrets and ARCs portable?</b>
But before I get into how that would work, let's talk about some of the problems with the ARC, specifically:
<ol type='1'><li><b>Microing ARCs distracts the Marine Commander,</b>
Much the same way Drifters did for the alien commander. The Marine Commander gives his team direction, provides them support via supplies and upgrades, and leads them towards victory without actually being on the field. When he is commanding ARCs he’s not commanding players and this is a problem because…</li><li><b>ARCs can move by themselves.</b>
I appreciate this was a design decision that was made earlier on in the development of NS2, but I feel that it doesn’t work in the context of the NS “genreâ€. Managing AI diminishes the experience of commanding real players, which was the sole focus in NS1 and what made that game really stand apart. As it stands, managing ARCs takes away valuable time that could be better spent playing with real people, for what is, basically, fiddling with slow, armoured RC cars. The only way to really use ARCs currently is..</li><li><b>ARC Trains. </b>
These things slow the game right down. Marines have to follow them slowly, aliens have to chew them down slowly. It’s unsatisfying and has proved difficult to balance.</li></ol>
So, what’s the solution? Here’s what I’ve been thinking:
<b>Make ARCs PORTABLE instead of MOBILE.</b>
<ul><li>In this configuration, ARCs are placed and built like regular structures, and can be “Undeployed†by the Commander once construced.</li><li>When Undeployed, an ARC can be carried by a marine and placed at another location where it will automatically redeploy. ARCs would therefore HAVE to be with marines to move, ensuring that newer players (via necessity of the mechanics) come to understand the natural importance of staying close to otherwise vulnerable siege equipment.</li><li>ARCs, of course, no longer have wheels.</li></ul>
This could seriously bring back the energy and tension of the first game’s sieges, while preserving the added benefit of being able to reposition the ARC.
When the Exosuit is added to the game, it would make a lot of sense to limit hauling the ARC around to players in Exosuits. Regular Marines would be able to carry standard turrets, though.
<b>Portable Turrets</b>
Let Marines carry turrets in the same fashion as above.
I’d love to see Turrets require a powered Turret Factory nearby (not necessarily in the same room, but within a reasonable radius) to operate at maximum effeciency. This means that Turrets placed outside of this range will have a reduced rate of fire, say by 50%. This would encourage Marines to commit to turret farms, rather than just dropping a couple at the entrances to rooms, and would lessen the effectiveness of “turret rushesâ€.
Just imagine, “You three, grab those turrets in base and move ‘em up, we’re going to try to lockdown Computer Lab.â€
Food for thought.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>(Shameless plug: this is basically a repost from <a href="http://squad5.ca" target="_blank">my NS2 blag</a>. And no, no official affiliation despite the .. familiarity of the name. Bad timing on my part.)</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<b>Why not make Sentry Turrets and ARCs portable?</b>
But before I get into how that would work, let's talk about some of the problems with the ARC, specifically:
<ol type='1'><li><b>Microing ARCs distracts the Marine Commander,</b>
Much the same way Drifters did for the alien commander. The Marine Commander gives his team direction, provides them support via supplies and upgrades, and leads them towards victory without actually being on the field. When he is commanding ARCs he’s not commanding players and this is a problem because…</li><li><b>ARCs can move by themselves.</b>
I appreciate this was a design decision that was made earlier on in the development of NS2, but I feel that it doesn’t work in the context of the NS “genreâ€. Managing AI diminishes the experience of commanding real players, which was the sole focus in NS1 and what made that game really stand apart. As it stands, managing ARCs takes away valuable time that could be better spent playing with real people, for what is, basically, fiddling with slow, armoured RC cars. The only way to really use ARCs currently is..</li><li><b>ARC Trains. </b>
These things slow the game right down. Marines have to follow them slowly, aliens have to chew them down slowly. It’s unsatisfying and has proved difficult to balance.</li></ol>
So, what’s the solution? Here’s what I’ve been thinking:
<b>Make ARCs PORTABLE instead of MOBILE.</b>
<ul><li>In this configuration, ARCs are placed and built like regular structures, and can be “Undeployed†by the Commander once construced.</li><li>When Undeployed, an ARC can be carried by a marine and placed at another location where it will automatically redeploy. ARCs would therefore HAVE to be with marines to move, ensuring that newer players (via necessity of the mechanics) come to understand the natural importance of staying close to otherwise vulnerable siege equipment.</li><li>ARCs, of course, no longer have wheels.</li></ul>
This could seriously bring back the energy and tension of the first game’s sieges, while preserving the added benefit of being able to reposition the ARC.
When the Exosuit is added to the game, it would make a lot of sense to limit hauling the ARC around to players in Exosuits. Regular Marines would be able to carry standard turrets, though.
<b>Portable Turrets</b>
Let Marines carry turrets in the same fashion as above.
I’d love to see Turrets require a powered Turret Factory nearby (not necessarily in the same room, but within a reasonable radius) to operate at maximum effeciency. This means that Turrets placed outside of this range will have a reduced rate of fire, say by 50%. This would encourage Marines to commit to turret farms, rather than just dropping a couple at the entrances to rooms, and would lessen the effectiveness of “turret rushesâ€.
Just imagine, “You three, grab those turrets in base and move ‘em up, we’re going to try to lockdown Computer Lab.â€
Food for thought.
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><i>(Shameless plug: this is basically a repost from <a href="http://squad5.ca" target="_blank">my NS2 blag</a>. And no, no official affiliation despite the .. familiarity of the name. Bad timing on my part.)</i><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Comments
If arcs are too slow, increase their speed.
Regarding Portable ARC/PG cheese, there's a couple of different ways that this could be balanced:
<ul><li>Prevent marines carrying ARCs from using Phase Gates</li><li>Adjust the time it takes for an ARC to deploy, as ArcL!ght suggested above, such that it's comparable to the Sieges from NS1, as that amount of delay didn't break the game balance.</li><li>Make ARCs require room power to work, such that ninja phases (with Power Packs) aren't game-breakers.</li><li>Because ARCs are more deadly (i.e. can be repositioned on demand/taken through PGs), make them more expensive, so that Marines can't just build a dozen and call it a day.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1933919:date=May 6 2012, 11:38 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 6 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you make marines that slow it makes it effectively the same as an original ARC push except that you need at least 3 to have an effective push in my experience, and If you are in an 8 man game thats 1 commander and 3 people carrying the arcs which leaves 4 marines actually able to remain effective. ARCs also cost 15 tres which is a pretty hefty amount to be restricted to being carried by marines who could easily die due to the handicaps they would need which would effectively make ARC pushes a dead end tactic that no one would really use anymore, and this is just considering an 8 man game, not a 7 or 6 man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my mind, 3 is really <i>too many</i> ARCs, to the point where it gets kinda silly. Seeing more than that, 4-6 ARCs bumbling down through the map, always strikes me as "massing", and in many RTSes, massing is not really deep strategy. It makes even less sense from a game design perspective when both teams have <i>players</i> as their core actors, instead of AI <i>units</i>.
I look back to NS1 for reference here, as in that game, if the marines really wanted to nail a siege, they would have to set up a turret factory <i>and</i> a siege turret outside of an alien base without the enemy team knowing about it (sneaky-mode) or being able to stop it (tight teamwork-mode). If teams could (regularly) pull that off in NS1, it is not too hard to believe that they could do the same in NS2. Under my proposal, you don't have to build ARCs in base, you could drop them down anywhere, so you're not stuck with "rolling out" the ARC train from base as you are now.
I wouldn't mind seeing ARCs increase to 20 or so T Res in cost, with an added buff to range (+25% or so), decrease to Rate of Fire (-25% to 35%) and increase to damage (+10-20%). This would make the more like Sieges in NS1, but would let them retain the portability that ARCs have brought to NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1933923:date=May 6 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 6 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is that even though it's not as slow you create 3 vulnerable players carrying the ARCs themselves. It's extremely likely that they will die due to the speed debuffs. ARCs in their current form also sometimes function as a tank for damage because of their high durability compared to marines. Thus what would happen is that marines would die, have to wait again for reinforcements while still protecting the ARCs, move some more, die again, move some more, die again, ad. inf. This makes it slower than the current way ARCs function so much so that you may as well build a robotics factory outside the alien base otherwise it's not going to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As above, I think you are imagining that ARCs would be deployed from base as they are in the current builds. Under my proposal, that would not be required. The purpose of Portability is to allow ARCs to be repositioned/reused/retreated while ensuring the commander is leading players to do so, rather than fiddling with AI. I think the former scenario is more satisfying, and closer to the spirit of NS, than the latter.
I don't think it would be slower, in fact, I think it would be a lot faster:
<ul><li>ARCs don't have to be built at a Turret Factory</li><li>ARCs can be moved up and redeployed by <i>multiple</i> players on the ground (one marine per ARC) rather than being individually micro'd by the Commander</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1934013:date=May 6 2012, 07:03 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 6 2012, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's the difference between marines following an arc train and marines folllowing marines carrying arcs?
If arcs are too slow, increase their speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is not just that ARCs are slow, it's that they slow down the game. They distract the commander from the important stuff (recon, supply drops, placing structures, researching upgrades) more than anything else, and they require that players "escort" dumb AI that will happily wander into a nest of whips or other hazards if they're not actively being babysat by the commander. Under my proposal, you'd be escorting "VIP" team-mates who can
<ol type='1'><li>Shoot at stuff</li><li>See danger and avoid it</li><li>Know when to stop and when to move, without requiring the commander to micro them</li></ol>
slow them down
remove their sprint
prevent their use of phase gates
require a power node to be set up before they can work
and require the ARCs to be deployed which would take as long as it did in NS1
Now taking into account that the comm still has to place these structures, then undeploy them, then marines have to pick them up, then run around and re-set them up. I fail to see how any of your own points are being met, but it would also require new art, new programming, and an entirely new balancing act. : /.
slow them down
remove their sprint
prevent their use of phase gates
require a power node to be set up before they can work
and require the ARCs to be deployed which would take as long as it did in NS1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't suggest removing sprint myself, but it makes sense.
The last 3 points there (prevent use of PG, require power, long deploy time) were mainly in response to other posters who foresaw balance problems. They were suggestions on how potential exploits/imbalances might be addressed, and not part of the original idea. They could also be fine-tuned to find something balanced, especially deploy time.
Perhaps phase gates aren't even necessary, as like any structure, you can place the unbuilt ARC anywhere on the map. In NS1, it required a turret factory, so a power node (or power pack) isn't that big of a leap. Siege Turrets couldn't move at all in NS1, so what's wrong with blocking players from teleporting it across the map? If you want Marines to be able to phase while carrying an ARC, perhaps a longer deploy time is the way to go. This is still an idea, it hasn't been tested, but when/if it is, these are some things that could be worth thinking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1934078:date=May 7 2012, 12:43 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ May 7 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now taking into account that the comm still has to place these structures, then undeploy them, then marines have to pick them up, then run around and re-set them up. I fail to see how any of your own points are being met<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that ARCs distract the Commander from his human team mates.
Thinking about the time the comm spends on managing ARCs now, most of it is dedicated to microing the ARCs along the way to their destination. The AI and pathfinding is a little glitchy and, sure, that could be fixed. I'd be happy with that and I'm sure it's forthcoming, but I'd like to look at the root of the problem: time spent microing ARCs is time not spent working with your team as a commander.
You are babysitting AI units, not supplying your marines with waypoints, supplies or buffs, not attending to the needs of the <i>human</i> players on your team. Against decent alien teams, you <i>must</i> micro your ARCs to some degree. Right-clicking once outside the alien base doesn't cut it if you want to be competitive in the current balance.
Portable ARCs could be a 1-click affair for commanders, as they could just drop one outside an alien hive, ala NS1. The Portability comes in if the marines want to do something a little more interesting, while preserving the most distinctive feature of the ARC: it's ability to be repositioned.
<!--quoteo(post=1934078:date=May 7 2012, 12:43 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ May 7 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it would also require new art, new programming, and an entirely new balancing act. : /.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Portable ARC would not necessarily need a new model. It could be scaled down, perhaps have the base lowered slightly, and as I stated further down in the OP, would eventually be carried only by exosuits (heavy armor), as it would not look out of place strapped onto the back of powered armour. Until exosuits are in the game, it could be carried by vanilla marines (just like marines originally could repair friendly armour with E, which later required the welder once that tool was added to the game).
As to the programming, if I can figure out the lua involved, I'll do it myself, but I can't say I'm confident that I'll succeed or have the time to dedicate to making it a reality. If I can, I'd love to, and I'd send it to UWE on floppy (you can mail those in an envelope, right?). To be honest, given what's already in the game, and how it's been designed, yes, it is not a <i>small</i> change, but UWE hasn't shied away from making non-small changes to the game as it develops, and the engine they've built, from what I can tell, is designed to be flexible.
As to a new balancing act, I would say it's an old balancing act: NS1, with a twist.
Sorry for the exhaustive length of this reply. Took me way longer to write than it should have. I hope it was worth your time reading.
(esp now that power packs are back in the game)
make arc's require power
(esp now that power packs are back in the game)
make arc's require power<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get why they don't. Turrets require power to fire bullets, ARCs don't require power to summon sonic waves that travel through walls?
ARCs should be able to go wherever they want to, just as whips do, but they should only be deployable on areas controlled by their team (ie powered by a node) just as whips are. This would prevent an entire alien team being <b>forced</b> to attack the ARCs and only the ARCs. It would also mean marines couldn't defend their entire offensive by continuously grenading the ARC train.
Yes, it could end up being horrible, but I have faith that, with the right balance, it would add a new layer of strategy and fun to the game.
I offered that portable turrets would have a reduced rate of fire, say 50%, when placed out of range of a factory. It would make turrets better for defensive use, while offensively, turrets would be more for supporting marine fire, covering the rear, and providing temporary defences when taking a room and building it up.
Aliens now have the ability to build whips anywhere there is infestation, on top of already being able to reposition whips at any time. Marines, I think, could benefit from the extra level of mobility.
Plus, dropping a turret to cover your squad's flank strikes me as being very "Aliens vs Space Marines", and I think it would be pretty epic.
1. Microing ARCs distracts the Marine Commander
- I fail to see how successful communication for what marines to puck up what arcs to go exactly in what position to place, etc, etc, while still commanding the rest of the marines to be doing whatever. I as a marine often as commanders to repeat instructions, be more specific, etc. You tell an ARC to go to a location, it goes there. Easy as pie.
2. If you hold the philosophy that the commander should only be commanding real people and never AI and thats it, then fine. But I still believe the trade off is not worth it due to my reasoning in point one.
3. When I first read this thread a long time ago, this was the point that won me over. The more I play the game, the more I realize everything works together in a beautiful manner, it often just depends on how skills the teams were. Arcs currently function in a similar fashion that Onos do. When there is an Onos on the move, you are force to to focus your attention on it, even chase the bloody thing down with your whole entire marine team. You are force to attack it, or it will destroy your power and then your are done. ARCS cause the same kind of mass aggro, and can often be an effective counter to a giant ONOS rush. If their whole team are ONOS in your base and you have jetpack and arcs on the way to their base, will they be able to crush your base before your ARCS crush theirs? Should they focus on destroying the ARCS instead? Perhaps split the the ONOS up to make the marine commander's beautiful recall/distress beacon ability less effective. After all the chaos that ONOS ensues confuses things ALOT.. oh the endless possibilites are beautiful.
I offered that portable turrets would have a reduced rate of fire, say 50%, when placed out of range of a factory. It would make turrets better for defensive use, while offensively, turrets would be more for supporting marine fire, covering the rear, and providing temporary defences when taking a room and building it up.
Aliens now have the ability to build whips anywhere there is infestation, on top of already being able to reposition whips at any time. Marines, I think, could benefit from the extra level of mobility.
Plus, dropping a turret to cover your squad's flank strikes me as being very "Aliens vs Space Marines", and I think it would be pretty epic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get worried when people starting trying to make similar gameplay mechanics on both factions. The asymmetry of this game is what makes it work so wonderfully.
I'd hate to see turrets moving all over the place like whips. Turrets already have a lot of limitations like not shooting 360 degrees, and can't cancel a recycle (to encourage smart placement). By allowing them to move around anywhere I think youd see it abused pretty hard.
Reminds me of aliens (the movie) too
Also, to those silly little statements of saying that this can be "abused" and such
What features arent abused? Onos isnt abused? Arcs arent abused?
What this guys suggesting is to give marins more strategies over the usual arc spam and charge.
Turretspam and camp
EVERYTHING in this game is abusable, what's a new strategy going to hurt?
He has some very good points and you ignore it attacking his ideas like they will break the game.
He has some very good points and you ignore it attacking his ideas like they will break the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
god forbid somebody posts something that isn't blind agreement on this forum
you'll fit right in dude!
ARCs should be able to go wherever they want to, just as whips do, but they should only be deployable on areas controlled by their team (ie powered by a node) just as whips are. This would prevent an entire alien team being <b>forced</b> to attack the ARCs and only the ARCs. It would also mean marines couldn't defend their entire offensive by continuously grenading the ARC train.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a pretty solid concept, requiring arcs to have some sort of power requirement. How about arcs maintain their mobility as they are BUT they have an energy mechanic system that lets the fire XX number of volleys before they need to be in a powered room or radius to recharge the energy. If you think about the concept of what it actually is doing the large power requirement makes a lot of sense.