<!--quoteo(post=1934973:date=May 10 2012, 04:45 AM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ May 10 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No thats not what I meant. This is all in one stomp. The one stomp has two effects depending on range (and height to account for jumping marines). I simply divided the two into ares into the picture as a visual aids. Its helps visualize how stomp's two effects (knock down/ slow down) work with range and jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Whereas currently, the Onos runs into the room/corridor and stomps, knocking all the marines down, with this change he will run in, slow the marines down so they cant run away with his first stomp, move forward, then stomp again and knock them all down. I assume you only want a slow down effect further away from the Onos so that those people can escape being knocked down, but if they are slowed its highly unlikely they will escape it, rather just delay it.
<!--quoteo(post=1934978:date=May 9 2012, 09:48 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 9 2012, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes. Whereas currently, the Onos runs into the room/corridor and stomps, knocking all the marines down, with this change he will run in, slow the marines down so they cant run away with his first stomp, move forward, then stomp again and knock them all down . I assume you only want a slow down effect further away from the Onos so that those people can escape being knocked down, but if they are slowed its highly unlikely they will escape it, rather just delay it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what you mean now. It could simply delay it..though it would depend on the amount of the slow down. Either way, its better than being knocked down where you have an almost guaranteed chance of dying. And this seems to be something the devs don't currently like about stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=1935073:date=May 10 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 10 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just as a quick off topic question; what do people see as the difference between NS2 stomp and NS1 stomp?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the whole game and onos are completely different now. The res model makes onoses way more frequent in NS2, the way marine movement skills work affects the way you can dodge stomps, the lack of (light armor) HMG makes a difference too. NS1 onos also got away with a lot of very awkward stuff because it wasn't really fielded regularly until some very late game situations in pub matches.
Someone can probably give a good comparsion of how the NS2 stomp works different than the NS1 counterpart, but the actual differences go way further than that. In general the onos is the one lifeform where I definitely wouldn't look back to NS1 too much when thinking about the NS2 implementation.
<!--quoteo(post=1935084:date=May 10 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 10 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the whole game and onos are completely different now. The res model makes onoses way more frequent in NS2, the way marine movement skills work affects the way you can dodge stomps, the lack of (light armor) HMG makes a difference too. NS1 onos also got away with a lot of very awkward stuff because it wasn't really fielded regularly until some very late game situations in pub matches.
Someone can probably give a good comparsion of how the NS2 stomp works different than the NS1 counterpart, but the actual differences go way further than that. In general the onos is the one lifeform where I definitely wouldn't look back to NS1 too much when thinking about the NS2 implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be so, in which case this thread is kind of pointless wouldn't you say? The stomp itself is not the problem. In fact the only difference between NS1 and NS2 stomp is the nice visual accompaniment that can be seen in the NS2 stomp.
<!--quoteo(post=1934807:date=May 9 2012, 05:23 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 9 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We want marine players to be able to dodge the stomp if they can time their jumps right, so we will look into this to see why it is no longer working this way.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's really interesting because I remember this being brought up back when it was possible and Sewlek (IIRC) said it was a bug that was going to be fixed...
<!--quoteo(post=1935089:date=May 10 2012, 01:14 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 10 2012, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1935089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That may be so, in which case this thread is kind of pointless wouldn't you say? The stomp itself is not the problem. In fact the only difference between NS1 and NS2 stomp is the nice visual accompaniment that can be seen in the NS2 stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure how you reached a conclusion like that.
I never said NS2 stomp wasn't the problem or that bringing it over from NS1 would be a good idea in any possible way. In fact, I said that NS2 probably shouldn't look back to NS1 in this case because the NS1 onos was never really functional as a whole. It was a very niche lifeform that nobody bothered complaining because it never played a big role and nobody had to play with it or against it very often.
Right now stomp probably is an issue and needs to be dealt with somehow. This thread can probably discuss any solution, let it be some bigger scale structural change in the game or some minor adjustment in the stomp itself. If we had more time before the release, I'd probably look for the bigger changes quite eagerly. Now I don't know.
FYI, you can still dodge stomp in this build except the window for a marine to be able to dodge it by jumping is noticeably smaller. Cory mentioned he was looking into it and it was definitely easier to time the jump dodge in previous builds so its likely an unintended change with the elevation tweak.
If you want to time the stomp jump you have half a second more or less from when you see the the onos' feet leave the ground. Try it on an empty server with a friend. Its just damn hard to do well all the time.
Considering that I get hit on top of elevated surfaces I'm pretty sure it's glitched out and needs a fix. But what it actually needs is to be removed for an ability that isn't completely game-breaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1934969:date=May 9 2012, 09:35 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ May 9 2012, 09:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of knock down up close and slow down further out of its range. <img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6636384/NS2/stomp.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Picture is not to scale, but you get the idea. Stomp would generate two "hitboxes": one for knock down and the other slow down. Knock down would affect marines not jumping up to half of stomps current range. Beyond that marines are slowed down. By jumping a marine can avoid the knock down except up close (probably going to die anyway). By jumping a marine can avoid must of the slow downs hit box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is exactly what I am suggesting. The outcome of a stomp could be one of three results. 1. Stomp at red close range (arms length)- Knockdown effect / disabled. Sucks for marine, but you need to run from a onos and not be next to it. I dont have a problem with this. 2. Stomp beyond yellow close range - Temporarily slowed as you suggest or accuracy reduced. 3. Stomp evaded - Marine leaps to avoid the stomp. No effect, but the marine might have spent a precious second and is still close to the onos. The marine needs SOME window of opportunity to avoid a stomp, because the outcome is way to brutal not to be able to avoid it. It is a no brainer, and it sounds like devs are already aware of it.
Also Imbalanxd idea is interesting, about stacking of the slow stomp effect. Though it seems like the stomp effect should be based on how close you are to the shock wave. If you are right atop a marine and do a stomp, and he is still standing...
Now stomp around corners... Not a fan. Maybe the slow effect would be appropriate.
<!--quoteo(post=1934807:date=May 9 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ May 9 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If this was changed it wasn't intentional. Initially the stomp was effecting jetpacking marines as well, which we certainly didn't want, and we lowered the height of the stomp effect area.
We want marine players to be able to dodge the stomp if they can time their jumps right, so we will look into this to see why it is no longer working this way.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really understand the thinking behind this. I would think that the knock down would be caused by the shock wave as much as the ground moving so jumping should not have much of an effect. Any excuse to have marines jumping around even more is a bad idea to my mind anyway. Marines with jet packs and weapons 3 is a good counter and when Exo suits comes in the attitudes will change. I can already hear the cries that the Onos is underpowered once Exo suits are in.
A lower starting res for both sides from 25 to say 15 - 20 would stop Onos coming into the game so early and that would be a simpler more effective way to balance things without messing around with the stomp. A dynamic stomp would be good so that marines close to an Onos would be knocked over but those further away would only be shaken with maybe a shooting accuracy penalty instead for a short amount of time.
<!--quoteo(post=1936191:date=May 14 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ May 14 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really understand the thinking behind this. I would think that the knock down would be caused by the shock wave as much as the ground moving so jumping should not have much of an effect. Any excuse to have marines jumping around even more is a bad idea to my mind anyway. Marines with jet packs and weapons 3 is a good counter and when Exo suits comes in the attitudes will change. I can already hear the cries that the Onos is underpowered once Exo suits are in.
A lower starting res for both sides from 25 to say 15 - 20 would stop Onos coming into the game so early and that would be a simpler more effective way to balance things without messing around with the stomp. A dynamic stomp would be good so that marines close to an Onos would be knocked over but those further away would only be shaken with maybe a shooting accuracy penalty instead for a short amount of time.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping stomp is fun. It's a classic mechanic.
Exo suits could have no jump or reduced one. From the sound of it they're gonna be heavy.
One qualm I have with stomp is animation snapping. By that I mean, when an onos begins stomping, he lifts his legs off the ground, but while he's doing this his model doesn't reflect any drastic aim yaw changes. Bad ascii art to demonstrate:
Frame 1) Onos sees marine begins stomp animation Frame 2) Marine dodges to the side; onos continues stop animation Frame 3) Onos stomps the ground and view "snaps" to marine to reflect aim changes and marine is stunned although onos model wasn't aiming at him.
My proposed solution: You could leave the stomp range as it is (or at least tweak it less) and instead "lock" where the onos stomps. Where ever the onos is aiming when he decides to stomp, that's where he will stomp at the end of his animation. This allows marines to quickly realize the onos is stomping and try and scurry off to the side to dodge his stomp. If this proves too drastic add a omni-directional smaller radius to stomp, so that any marine too close to the onos gets stunned (since it can be annoying to hit marines that are "inside" your model.
I kind of feel the Onos Stomp would be better as something that is only for disrupting marines. Like, rather than knocking them off their feet completely (makes no sense), the marines just lose their balance and start shuffling to the left/right or whatever direction the onos was stomping from.
This would allow the Onos to make the decision to stomp and run away or stomp and let his teamates go in for the kills. It would also stop Onos from stomping and then picking off one or two marines as they stomp and prevent the lock out kills.
Stomp needs the player stun removed. Leave in the stun for buildings, arcs, macs.
Stomp is absolutely the most imbalanced ability in NS2. I can't comprehend how this was allowed to remain in the game for a solid 5 or 8 patches now. Do you even play this game?
<!--quoteo(post=1936850:date=May 17 2012, 08:33 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ May 17 2012, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp needs the player stun removed. Leave in the stun for buildings, arcs, macs.
Stomp is absolutely the most imbalanced ability in NS2. I can't comprehend how this was allowed to remain in the game for a solid 5 or 8 patches now. Do you even play this game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you? Stomp has stunned players for over half a decade.
<!--quoteo(post=1936863:date=May 17 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ May 17 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you? Stomp has stunned players for over half a decade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos -- and therefore stomp -- are much more readily available than they were in NS1. Considering the 'costs' are drastically lower to get out multiple onos quickly, stomp should also be drastically reduced in power.
P.S. NS2 isn't NS1 and NS2 stomp has only been around a few months.
Comments
Yes. Whereas currently, the Onos runs into the room/corridor and stomps, knocking all the marines down, with this change he will run in, slow the marines down so they cant run away with his first stomp, move forward, then stomp again and knock them all down. I assume you only want a slow down effect further away from the Onos so that those people can escape being knocked down, but if they are slowed its highly unlikely they will escape it, rather just delay it.
I see what you mean now. It could simply delay it..though it would depend on the amount of the slow down. Either way, its better than being knocked down where you have an almost guaranteed chance of dying. And this seems to be something the devs don't currently like about stomp.
I think the whole game and onos are completely different now. The res model makes onoses way more frequent in NS2, the way marine movement skills work affects the way you can dodge stomps, the lack of (light armor) HMG makes a difference too. NS1 onos also got away with a lot of very awkward stuff because it wasn't really fielded regularly until some very late game situations in pub matches.
Someone can probably give a good comparsion of how the NS2 stomp works different than the NS1 counterpart, but the actual differences go way further than that. In general the onos is the one lifeform where I definitely wouldn't look back to NS1 too much when thinking about the NS2 implementation.
Someone can probably give a good comparsion of how the NS2 stomp works different than the NS1 counterpart, but the actual differences go way further than that. In general the onos is the one lifeform where I definitely wouldn't look back to NS1 too much when thinking about the NS2 implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be so, in which case this thread is kind of pointless wouldn't you say? The stomp itself is not the problem. In fact the only difference between NS1 and NS2 stomp is the nice visual accompaniment that can be seen in the NS2 stomp.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's really interesting because I remember this being brought up back when it was possible and Sewlek (IIRC) said it was a bug that was going to be fixed...
I'm not sure how you reached a conclusion like that.
I never said NS2 stomp wasn't the problem or that bringing it over from NS1 would be a good idea in any possible way. In fact, I said that NS2 probably shouldn't look back to NS1 in this case because the NS1 onos was never really functional as a whole. It was a very niche lifeform that nobody bothered complaining because it never played a big role and nobody had to play with it or against it very often.
Right now stomp probably is an issue and needs to be dealt with somehow. This thread can probably discuss any solution, let it be some bigger scale structural change in the game or some minor adjustment in the stomp itself. If we had more time before the release, I'd probably look for the bigger changes quite eagerly. Now I don't know.
If you want to time the stomp jump you have half a second more or less from when you see the the onos' feet leave the ground. Try it on an empty server with a friend. Its just damn hard to do well all the time.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6636384/NS2/stomp.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Picture is not to scale, but you get the idea. Stomp would generate two "hitboxes": one for knock down and the other slow down.
Knock down would affect marines not jumping up to half of stomps current range. Beyond that marines are slowed down. By jumping a marine can avoid the knock down except up close (probably going to die anyway). By jumping a marine can avoid must of the slow downs hit box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is exactly what I am suggesting. The outcome of a stomp could be one of three results.
1. Stomp at red close range (arms length)- Knockdown effect / disabled. Sucks for marine, but you need to run from a onos and not be next to it. I dont have a problem with this.
2. Stomp beyond yellow close range - Temporarily slowed as you suggest or accuracy reduced.
3. Stomp evaded - Marine leaps to avoid the stomp. No effect, but the marine might have spent a precious second and is still close to the onos. The marine needs SOME window of opportunity to avoid a stomp, because the outcome is way to brutal not to be able to avoid it. It is a no brainer, and it sounds like devs are already aware of it.
Also Imbalanxd idea is interesting, about stacking of the slow stomp effect. Though it seems like the stomp effect should be based on how close you are to the shock wave. If you are right atop a marine and do a stomp, and he is still standing...
Now stomp around corners... Not a fan. Maybe the slow effect would be appropriate.
We want marine players to be able to dodge the stomp if they can time their jumps right, so we will look into this to see why it is no longer working this way.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really understand the thinking behind this. I would think that the knock down would be caused by the shock wave as much as the ground moving so jumping should not have much of an effect. Any excuse to have marines jumping around even more is a bad idea to my mind anyway. Marines with jet packs and weapons 3 is a good counter and when Exo suits comes in the attitudes will change. I can already hear the cries that the Onos is underpowered once Exo suits are in.
A lower starting res for both sides from 25 to say 15 - 20 would stop Onos coming into the game so early and that would be a simpler more effective way to balance things without messing around with the stomp. A dynamic stomp would be good so that marines close to an Onos would be knocked over but those further away would only be shaken with maybe a shooting accuracy penalty instead for a short amount of time.
Sal
A lower starting res for both sides from 25 to say 15 - 20 would stop Onos coming into the game so early and that would be a simpler more effective way to balance things without messing around with the stomp. A dynamic stomp would be good so that marines close to an Onos would be knocked over but those further away would only be shaken with maybe a shooting accuracy penalty instead for a short amount of time.
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping stomp is fun. It's a classic mechanic.
Exo suits could have no jump or reduced one. From the sound of it they're gonna be heavy.
0 = marine
< = onos
1........|.2.......|.3.......|
......<.|.......<.|.......V.|
..0......|.......0.|.......0.|
Frame 1) Onos sees marine begins stomp animation
Frame 2) Marine dodges to the side; onos continues stop animation
Frame 3) Onos stomps the ground and view "snaps" to marine to reflect aim changes and marine is stunned although onos model wasn't aiming at him.
My proposed solution:
You could leave the stomp range as it is (or at least tweak it less) and instead "lock" where the onos stomps. Where ever the onos is aiming when he decides to stomp, that's where he will stomp at the end of his animation. This allows marines to quickly realize the onos is stomping and try and scurry off to the side to dodge his stomp. If this proves too drastic add a omni-directional smaller radius to stomp, so that any marine too close to the onos gets stunned (since it can be annoying to hit marines that are "inside" your model.
This would allow the Onos to make the decision to stomp and run away or stomp and let his teamates go in for the kills. It would also stop Onos from stomping and then picking off one or two marines as they stomp and prevent the lock out kills.
Stomp is absolutely the most imbalanced ability in NS2. I can't comprehend how this was allowed to remain in the game for a solid 5 or 8 patches now. Do you even play this game?
Stomp is absolutely the most imbalanced ability in NS2. I can't comprehend how this was allowed to remain in the game for a solid 5 or 8 patches now. Do you even play this game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you? Stomp has stunned players for over half a decade.
Onos -- and therefore stomp -- are much more readily available than they were in NS1. Considering the 'costs' are drastically lower to get out multiple onos quickly, stomp should also be drastically reduced in power.
P.S. NS2 isn't NS1 and NS2 stomp has only been around a few months.