idea on: gorges building + kham, co-existing!

weezl · May 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">...might be perceived as a little complicated though :/</div>Somewhere I remember Charlie saying something in the likes of "can't give gorges the ability to also build everything <i>without breaking the current alien resource model</i>" - I think I figured out a pretty sturdy solution! Only possible drawback is it might be perceived as complicated.
<span style="color:#696969">
Credit goes to NurEinMensch for making this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118311" target="_blank">Would it make sense to let Gorges build real stuff?</a> which got me thinking. This started as a short response, but then I wanted to make it be the original post in it's own thread for more exposure :P
edit3: this thread by Katana- goes in the same direction (as far as the res is concerned) <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118307" target="_blank">Is Tres needed?</a>, but I only saw it afterwards I wrote this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 5 2012, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#696969">What if Gorges got the ability to build everything? I mean pretty much everything the Alien side has to offer, perhaps with the exception of hives. Or perhaps even hives. Using their pres. It would of course require some tweaking for the costs etc. The main objection would be that this steps into the realm of the Alien comm. But would that really be a problem? Nothing would be taken away from him. He would still be the master of all tres and only he would unlock upgrades. In NS1 it worked just fine with multiple Gorges (aka "comms") working in parallel so I can imagine it might work like that in NS2 as well without devaluing the role of the Khamm too much.</span></div>
I've also been thinking about this!
The ONLY drawback I see with it is players won't get along in terms of who pays for what. Although, like you say, several gorges worked just fine in ns1. Maybe the difference now is that kham and gorge are different roles, while ns1 gorges were all equal.
Actually now that I think about it, there's also the issue of khamm PR; he can jump out to spend PR, to then jump back in and spend TR elsewhere - Kham needs a PR sink!

Highly theoretical suggestions:
- How about making abilities cost BOTH PR and energy?
- Or replacing energy with PR and adding looong cooldowns to counter spamming (+ adding the need to have several structures)?
(Maybe have the buildings need to be "charged" with PR, the "transporting" of which through the infestation takes time?)</span>

<b>- Or not gaining PR while inside hive (letting it flow over to rest of team, Ã la ns1*).
To prevent jumping out short intervals (which imo wouldn't even be worth the effort), having TR only trickle in when there's a kham (otherwise it's converted to PR and again flows over to team Ã la ns1*).</b>
edit2: to clarify, how does res work now? - Every 8s (and from every RT) each player gets 1PR + com/kham gets 1TR?

Doing this will first and foremost make all the fuzzy gorgies in the universe a very happy panda (including the one in your office).
Secondly, and most importantly, it will not "break the alien resource model".

There will be no incentive for kham to leave the hive for (personal) economic reasons (gaining PR).
There will be no incentive for kham to leave the hive make buildings (with separate PR).
There will be no incentive for kham-switching!
<blockquote>Here's the not so trivially visible reasons why:
1. There is no longer a total alien income of [N players] <u>+ [1 kham]</u>. Like in ns1, it's only [N players]; <u>kham player doesn't get "two-type/dual income".</u>
2. There IS NO extra resources (PR) for the kham player to use; they are "tied" as TR.
(povided he khams the whole game; #2 is not valid if a player with saved up PR takes over the role of kham. I think this is a special-case/exception we just have to live with.)
1+2 = 3. Kham DOES NOT need to keep track of two different resources! Only one resource. Like all the other players! Like in ns1!</blockquote>(for better or for worse) <i>There will actually be an incentive for the kham player to KEEP khamming</i> (since his res has become TR)...
...and at the same time not very serious for the team if he doesn't continue.
No res gets "lost".
Each player can themselves decide whether to spend res on lifeforms or building (or in long games both) just like in ns1.

*each 1 unit of incoming res (res tick) gets distributed to only one player; players take turns receiving res each tick
PR = player resources; pres
TR = team resources; tres
RT = resource tower

P.S.
Keep the gorge at 10PR, get back to hydras costing X amount of PR and balance them to be Y amount effective. So Z = Y/X, makes it worth to invest in, but not OP vs marines.
P.P.S
Get back to hydras shooting actual projectiles whose aim is corrected to the first derivative of marine position (with respect to time) - like in EVERY GAME since the ballistics research in Age Of Empires 2!!!. This way you get hit reliably when predictably traveling in a straight line, something the current implementation fails doing.
edit: P.P.P.S
A suggestion I made WAY back in b150:s in this thread about gorge and kham co-operationg on the building things side:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
and here (later in the same thread) i clarified a little more detailed what my idea was:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&view=findpost&p=1811889" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1811889</a>
TLDR:
1. Kham can build on his own on DI, but VERY slow. Almost what we have now as "the gardener kham".
2. Kham can place a building "order" to build <u>"through" gorges</u>, almost Ã la the marine system. Kham pays. More detail in link 2.
3. Gorges can build on their own with own res.
1 has about the same visual effect as is now. 2 & 3 have <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/storage/kharaa_gorge_concept.jpg" target="_blank">THIS concept art effect</a>!

NurEinMensch · May 2012

Thank you those are some very interesting ideas. I have the feeling if we want the Gorge to be anything close to the original Gorge we will have to come up with something like this. The Gorge is <i>not</i> the engineer from TF2!

Imbalanxd · May 2012

This is like the suggestion to remove power nodes from the game. Sure, it solves<b> the power node problem</b>, but it removes an over arching theme or mechanic from the game, in this case, distinctly visible map control.

In the case of the gorge, it removes the theme of all alien life forms essentially being "FPS player" while the comm is the "RTS player". The gorge is not meant to be a special unit that has a special job overlapping that of other aliens and the comm. I think UWE made the decision to remove any overly strategic capability of the gorge, so that only the comm has those tasks. You can't think of the gorge in the traditional NS1 sense any more, he is more of the bridge between skulk and lerk now, just as lerk was the bridge between skulk and fade in NS1.

Don't underestimate the importance of these overarching themes and mechanics. Exceptions to the rule are the worst things you can have in games. They completely break the flow and intuitiveness of the experience.

weezl · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 5 2012, 12:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Thank you those are some very interesting ideas. <b>I have the feeling if we want the Gorge to be anything close to the original Gorge we will have to come up with something like this. <u>The Gorge is <i>not</i> the engineer from TF2!</b></u></div>
Totally agree!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 5 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This is like the suggestion to remove power nodes from the game. Sure, it solves<b> the power node problem</b>, but it removes an over arching theme or mechanic from the game, in this case, distinctly visible map control.
...</div>what? huh?? Do you possibly mean: more non-gorge aliens scouting? In any case, aliens have too much ground control already!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 5 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...
In the case of the gorge, it removes the theme of all alien life forms essentially being "FPS player" while the comm is the "RTS player". The gorge is not meant to be a special unit that has a special job overlapping that of other aliens and the comm. I think UWE made the decision to remove any overly strategic capability of the gorge, so that only the comm has those tasks. You can't think of the gorge in the traditional NS1 sense any more, he is more of the bridge between skulk and lerk now, just as lerk was the bridge between skulk and fade in NS1.
...</div>NS1 had no kham, are you saying gorges weren't FPS players there?
Gorge not being special??? Each alien class is already SPECIAL! Including the gorge!
Don't follow nor agree with your "bridge" statement...
About overlapping with kham, here you got a point!
But then kham can only see top-down perspective, while gorge can see details in room geometry and adapt building placement thereafter. While kham has a more <b><i>strategic</i></b> role, the gorge supplements it with a more <b><i>tactical</i></b> role!
How about letting gorges make buildings stuck to walls, just like hydras!
In any case kham would be alone in being able to build the tech-buildings, while both can build the support-buildings.
So I don't see why this "overlap" can't exist.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 5 2012, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>...
Don't underestimate the importance of these overarching themes and mechanics. Exceptions to the rule are the worst things you can have in games. They completely break the flow and intuitiveness of the experience.</div>I simply don't agree with this! Believing in these "rules" as strong as a religious fundamentalist closes more door than it open imo.

Unknown_Soldier · May 2012

Quite frankly the current iteration of the Gorge can not co-exist with the Alien Commander. The implementation of the Alien Commander gutted everything that was special about the Gorge and also ruined the Alien resource model in the process. Without an overhaul to what the Gorge is, I just can't see the 'immobile builder' role ever work out.

Imbalanxd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 6 2012, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I simply don't agree with this! Believing in these "rules" as strong as a religious fundamentalist closes more door than it open imo.</div>

Of course it closes doors. That's what HCI is all about. The computer opens millions of doors, the human closes most of them because we only accept so many complexities. I agree that if you get rid of the concrete "rules" which form the overarching mechanics of the game, it will be more like NS1. By enforcing them, it will be more playable and attract more players.

Remember, UWE aren't putting all this time and money into making a game for the NS1 community. As popular as NS1 was, it only had 300 000 players. Thats a lot for a half life mod, but not enough for an independent release. They're going to need to appeal to a larger audience. With that, I say that the gorge <b>IS </b>the engineer from TF2.

weezl · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 6 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course it closes doors. That's what HCI is all about. The computer opens millions of doors, the human closes most of them because we only accept so many complexities. I agree that if you get rid of the concrete "rules" which form the overarching mechanics of the game, it will be more like NS1. By enforcing them, it will be more playable and attract more players.

Remember, UWE aren't putting all this time and money into making a game for the NS1 community. As popular as NS1 was, it only had 300 000 players. Thats a lot for a half life mod, but not enough for an independent release. They're going to need to appeal to a larger audience. With that, I say that the gorge <b>IS </b>the engineer from TF2.</div>
I think what people are saying is they don't want the gorge to be the tf2 engineer! Atleast what I'm saying!

And how do you reason that holding to rules (that imo just SOUND nice and look good on paper) is going to make people not want to play?
I just don't see the following happening...at all!
-What?? Kham player builds BUT GORGES BUILD TOOO??? wtf i'm so confused!?!? no! this whole game IS NOT FOR MEEE!! MOMMYYYY!
Or how do you imagine it? :P

Imbalanxd · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 6 2012, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think what people are saying is they don't want the gorge to be the tf2 engineer! Atleast what I'm saying!

And how do you reason that holding to rules (that imo just SOUND nice and look good on paper) is going to make people not want to play?
I just don't see the following happening...at all!
-What?? Kham player builds BUT GORGES BUILD TOOO??? wtf i'm so confused!?!? no! this whole game IS NOT FOR MEEE!! MOMMYYYY!
Or how do you imagine it? :P</div>

Why would people not want the gorge to be the TF2 engineer? I've never played TF2, but it sounds like a perfect fit. Oh right, I already know why. Because people want NS to be different to everything else for the sake of being different.

And, as I suspected, you are underestimating the importance of strict game play themes. People who have never tried to design a game seem to think that theres nothing to it. You just throw a bunch of gimmicky mechanics together and there you go. Unfortunately people don't enjoy playing games that are erratic and unintuitive. When you give a game strict structure and flow, people start to enjoy themselves. That's why the "dumbed down" games like COD and BF are so popular. Everything is predictable. Knowing the game is never the challenge, playing it is. I'm not saying go all the way into COD territory, I'm saying there is a middle ground.

Xarius · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>With that, I say that the gorge IS the engineer from TF2.</div>
Last time I checked, the engineer in TF2 could actually kill something without needing his sentry. The gorge is still a long way away from being like your standard 'combat engineer' class, unfortunately. I think we need to accept the gorge from NS 1 is gone, and will never be coming back. By introducing a commander, they made a concious decision to bury that gorge. I for one am not a big fan of the whole alien commander, still, since the whole feature is underwhelming at best. (It is a beta I know that, but I don't have high hopes for it to ever become as memorable as the marine commander) That being said, I think the gorge as a combat engineer is the right choice, given the decisions they've made. Now if only they would ACTUALLY make him a combat-engineer. Currently he's neither combat, nor engineer.

IronHorse · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 5 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Knowing the game is never the challenge, playing it is.</div>

That sentence right there is a great example of what intuitive design is supposed to accomplish.
Its not always possible, as sometimes you need long videos to explain certain gameplay rules (TF2) or tooltips (MMORPGs)

Playing the new Nexuiz game on steam yesterday is a <b>perfect </b>example of this particular discussion. Easy to jump in and briefly be familiar enough with the weapons and movement to reach the top of the scoreboard - even though you know <b>absolutely nothing</b> about all the mutators or pickup items or maps etc.

In the particular case of NS2, since alpha days i have thoroughly enjoyed discovering detailed info by simply playing the game - void of tooltips a lot of time. But you have to already like /love the product first to go through this, despite enjoying this process, because in a real world scenario like playing 32 players in 1.0, taking a years time to learn the majority of the intricate non communicated details could be considered depth or "too difficult/frustrating of an undertaking." I can see both being experienced for the masses.

In game feedback for this game is something i am very, very excited about, as it will be the largest contributor to lowering that time it takes to "know the game" so that you are able to "play it."

edit: this should be in the I&S forums?
also apologize for the derailing

.ADHd · May 2012

Threads like this make me sad cause I didn't even read past the first couple sentences and already knew this idea had 0 chance of even being looked at or considered lol.

weezl · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ May 14 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Threads like this make me sad cause I didn't even read past the first couple sentences and already knew this idea had 0 chance of even being looked at or considered lol.</div>
that's a nice spirited and certainly constructive post
why don't you read my actual idea, then think about it even if it's hard for you i know, then maybe understand, THEN make a constructive post

i could have said the same about your infestation thread, although I DID read the whole thing and understood it

peregrinus · May 2012

I think you have misunderstood ADHDs post weezl.

hakenspit · May 2012

I just dont get why gorges cant build everything the kham can?
Why cant other aliens sacrifice their Pres to throw down a Resource tower or put up a hive?
They pay a penalty in not being able to access a higher lifeform for a while.

If they feel an additional hive, resource tower, whip etc could influence the game better than them going onos. fade or lerk then why cant they chose to spend their res that way?
They may be happy to go skulk longer and play a different role, sacrifice an early game lerk/fade for an additional res tower or whip.
It could even cost more personal res than normal team res if needed for balance depending on what it is they are building.
This could help address the sudden influx of fades, onos etc..by providing an alternative way to help the side and spend res.
This could very mean fewer lerks, fades or onos' all appearing once, assuming people would still make the sacrifice like in NS1.

Rover · May 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ May 15 2012, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I just dont get why gorges cant build everything the kham can?
Why cant other aliens sacrifice their Pres to throw down a Resource tower or put up a hive?
They pay a penalty in not being able to access a higher lifeform for a while.

If they feel an additional hive, resource tower, whip etc could influence the game better than them going onos. fade or lerk then why cant they chose to spend their res that way?
They may be happy to go skulk longer and play a different role, sacrifice an early game lerk/fade for an additional res tower or whip.
It could even cost more personal res than normal team res if needed for balance depending on what it is they are building.
This could help address the sudden influx of fades, onos etc..by providing an alternative way to help the side and spend res.
This could very mean fewer lerks, fades or onos' all appearing once, assuming people would still make the sacrifice like in NS1.</div>
Additionally, why not remove alien team res altogether? The comm (and gorges) can then spend their pres for structures.
Limit it in some way than you can't switch comms constantly to avoid the 10 gorge cost for dropping structures.

countbasie · May 2012

To the PowerNodes:

Actually today we had an awesome, balanced game with lots of hard battles and startegic stuff. Of course, in 208, Aliens won in the end with 4 Onoses.

The PowerNode was a pretty cool element I think. While rushing a Hive it was like 'ONOS AT PN', Beacon, lights out, 4 Marines manage to kill the attacking aliens and could rush through the PG again after getting the Power back up. For me the only problem was in this game, that the aliens aren't able to hive teleport. A well organized rush is not defendable except you have luckily an onos near MS. And of course the late-game ownage of aliens.

To make it short: The PowerNode can be a good, fun strategic element (I was sceptical too until today).

idea on: gorges building + kham, co-existing!

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