Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
I see a good auto balance option, it's called the F4 key and then joining random. This game has a readyroom for this reason along with just being a bloody awesome/original feature compared to lobby chatrooms :)
<!--quoteo(post=1936039:date=May 14 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 14 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one one the 8 side MADE the game 8v3. That's not their fault, it's the 5 guys who left's fault. Autobalance is a punishment for doing nothing wrong. You can't numerically stack teams. Thus, to even be on the 8 man side, you had to be there before the guys actually raged/left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the flip side, not having autobalance is punishment for the team with fewer numbers too. Is it the fault of those on that team that people left? (ok sometimes it is, but mostly not) Say its 8v5. Unless there is a huge difference is skill between teams, the team with 5 will probably find they end up in a pattern of spawn / die soon after for quite some time before the game ends. This situation can be particularly frustrating (as it was for me the other week) where the aliens with more team numbers don't bother killing the base, instead just come in as onii and squash level 1 marines then rinse and repeat. They were deliberately just going after high k:d ratios by the looks.
<!--quoteo(post=1936039:date=May 14 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 14 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you've never rage quit? Cool story bro. A lot of people do, so your personal experience really doesn't matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can't have been that cooler story since you didn't even read it properly. I have rage quit NS2 (and many other games) multiple times, all because the teams were allowed to get to stacked numbers. I just haven’t rage quit from autobalance. A lot of people I know will do this. Hell I’ve witnessed it reduce the number of people on the NS2 server I play on by half on more than one occasion. With all of the quits occuring on one team.
<!--quoteo(post=1936252:date=May 15 2012, 05:44 AM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ May 15 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->autobalance can work and prevent a good 8v8 even get to the point of an 8v3, because it kicks in the second teams are at 8v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
So if Autobalance was a server option, either admin controlled or vote at start of round controlled, and you were warned about it (so you can go play your stacked game elsewhere) would the people against it care if servers that did want it had it? Or would you still rather see our games end due to uneven teams rather than real victories more often than not?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1936272:date=May 14 2012, 04:00 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ May 14 2012, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see a good auto balance option, it's called the F4 key and then joining random. This game has a readyroom for this reason along with just being a bloody awesome/original feature compared to lobby chatrooms :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is that few people want to sit in the readyroom until everyone f4s (there are always 1-2 players who will stay in a 1/2 v 10 round until the bitter end). A surrender vote is a better solution, because all the players get to continue playing up until the game ends for everyone at the same time.
IIRC, this was a problem in NS1 too back in the days; it was solved by simply ending the round in favour of the stacked team (4-player advantage). Anticlimactic, but you could get on with the next round that much sooner.
<!--quoteo(post=1936308:date=May 14 2012, 05:22 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 14 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like the better option is a surrender mod/better random mod (because joining random when you can only join one team isn't really random).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forcing random (a real random) in the ready room would be a viable alternative.
I usually wouldn't really mind balancing the teams when I'm in a public games, BUT it is really annoying to lose all your personal res. It feels like a punishment for the good deed and leaves you empty-handed for no real reason. Here are some suggestions on keeping teams balanced in public games:
1) Idle kicks needed (so that players in teams can not stay away for the whole round and keep the team from having that one player). 2) Servers should never allow one team to have more than half of the total max players. I've seen 8 vs 6 teams on 14 slot servers -> no new joiner can balance the teams. 3) Possibly, within maybe 3 minutes of a round start, there could be a forced auto-balance with advance warning and maybe 30 second delay (so that players have time to join up). 4) When auto-balanced (or voluntarily balanced "Teams are uneven, you may choose to auto-balance.") the player should gain some personal res and not start empty. Proper amount could be something like: ([all team pres] + [all teams current weapons/lifeforms costs]) / number of players in team.
A bit complicated perhaps, and maybe not core functionality (-> mod). Basically I'm trying to suggest here a way to keep the teams somewhat fair and at the same time make committed players able to stay in their current team and those villing to change be able to help out for the good of the game.
i think there are 2 main reasons of ragequitting..
<b>1. people do not feel responsible for their team</b> it's a big topic, but when you're playing an ego-shooter you can always easily blame others for the team's defeat. you can easily blame the stack, the fact that you've latejoined, enemies' luck, imbalanced maps or OP lifeforms/weapons. but be sure to always claim your innocence if anyone ever should get the idea that you might have been part of the cause. so it is essential to find a way to make ppl feel responsible for their team. not giving it up and not blaming everyone/everything else for it and help the team as good as you can until it REALLY is over.
but well, how to realize that? how to create such a feeling? 1 important factor is that you're gone once you quit - not good! make all players appear in some kind of endgame-statistic, so you also see the raged players. unfortunately, i do not have another good idea now, but maybe someone else has one.
and <b>2. surrenders are a no-go for many players</b> raging often is a result of lack of responsibility for your team that's losing. you blame something else to be the loss' reason. whether it's your team or the enemey team or the map or whatsoever. it's not you. so you're raged and you usually don't want to play on, but what if there is no proper way to surrender? if you F4, you 100%ly lose time and resources (don't get it back when you rejoin @ns2 right?). so if your F4-surrender-attempt fails, you usually handicapped your team even more.. so F4 (=NS' surrender) is not very esteemed and not rarly got punished by admins. so what better can ppl do but just quitting? no one can blame you for exiting a game ... = a surrender-feature based on the eject-model could help it, so you get a proper chance to give up if you feel so
moreover, it is hard to replace a ragequit player. once the player is gone his res are gone along with him. so a fair system that favors the "replacement" could be handy
a pure auto-balance would just cause a bad feeling of being forced to join M/A and probably make you quit too. better try to not make anyone quit in case one rages
(i did not read all posts sorry if already mentioned)
Comments
On the flip side, not having autobalance is punishment for the team with fewer numbers too. Is it the fault of those on that team that people left? (ok sometimes it is, but mostly not)
Say its 8v5. Unless there is a huge difference is skill between teams, the team with 5 will probably find they end up in a pattern of spawn / die soon after for quite some time before the game ends. This situation can be particularly frustrating (as it was for me the other week) where the aliens with more team numbers don't bother killing the base, instead just come in as onii and squash level 1 marines then rinse and repeat. They were deliberately just going after high k:d ratios by the looks.
<!--quoteo(post=1936039:date=May 14 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 14 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you've never rage quit? Cool story bro. A lot of people do, so your personal experience really doesn't matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't have been that cooler story since you didn't even read it properly. I have rage quit NS2 (and many other games) multiple times, all because the teams were allowed to get to stacked numbers. I just haven’t rage quit from autobalance. A lot of people I know will do this. Hell I’ve witnessed it reduce the number of people on the NS2 server I play on by half on more than one occasion. With all of the quits occuring on one team.
<!--quoteo(post=1936252:date=May 15 2012, 05:44 AM:name=Venatos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Venatos @ May 15 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1936252"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->autobalance can work and prevent a good 8v8 even get to the point of an 8v3, because it kicks in the second teams are at 8v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
So if Autobalance was a server option, either admin controlled or vote at start of round controlled, and you were warned about it (so you can go play your stacked game elsewhere) would the people against it care if servers that did want it had it?
Or would you still rather see our games end due to uneven teams rather than real victories more often than not?
The problem is that few people want to sit in the readyroom until everyone f4s (there are always 1-2 players who will stay in a 1/2 v 10 round until the bitter end). A surrender vote is a better solution, because all the players get to continue playing up until the game ends for everyone at the same time.
Forcing random (a real random) in the ready room would be a viable alternative.
1) Idle kicks needed (so that players in teams can not stay away for the whole round and keep the team from having that one player).
2) Servers should never allow one team to have more than half of the total max players. I've seen 8 vs 6 teams on 14 slot servers -> no new joiner can balance the teams.
3) Possibly, within maybe 3 minutes of a round start, there could be a forced auto-balance with advance warning and maybe 30 second delay (so that players have time to join up).
4) When auto-balanced (or voluntarily balanced "Teams are uneven, you may choose to auto-balance.") the player should gain some personal res and not start empty. Proper amount could be something like: ([all team pres] + [all teams current weapons/lifeforms costs]) / number of players in team.
A bit complicated perhaps, and maybe not core functionality (-> mod). Basically I'm trying to suggest here a way to keep the teams somewhat fair and at the same time make committed players able to stay in their current team and those villing to change be able to help out for the good of the game.
balance by buffing the lower number team
more res, or higher dmg, more hp etc etc
res is prolly the easiest one without changing the game too much
btw did you know pres is currently benefiting the team with more ppl already as it is currently implemented?
8 ppl that gain 1 pres each 8 seconds means 8 pres per team, which turns into 8 shotties etc..
<b>1. people do not feel responsible for their team</b>
it's a big topic, but when you're playing an ego-shooter you can always easily blame others for the team's defeat. you can easily blame the stack, the fact that you've latejoined, enemies' luck, imbalanced maps or OP lifeforms/weapons. but be sure to always claim your innocence if anyone ever should get the idea that you might have been part of the cause.
so it is essential to find a way to make ppl feel responsible for their team. not giving it up and not blaming everyone/everything else for it and help the team as good as you can until it REALLY is over.
but well, how to realize that? how to create such a feeling? 1 important factor is that you're gone once you quit - not good! make all players appear in some kind of endgame-statistic, so you also see the raged players.
unfortunately, i do not have another good idea now, but maybe someone else has one.
and <b>2. surrenders are a no-go for many players</b>
raging often is a result of lack of responsibility for your team that's losing. you blame something else to be the loss' reason. whether it's your team or the enemey team or the map or whatsoever. it's not you.
so you're raged and you usually don't want to play on, but what if there is no proper way to surrender?
if you F4, you 100%ly lose time and resources (don't get it back when you rejoin @ns2 right?). so if your F4-surrender-attempt fails, you usually handicapped your team even more.. so F4 (=NS' surrender) is not very esteemed and not rarly got punished by admins. so what better can ppl do but just quitting? no one can blame you for exiting a game ...
= a surrender-feature based on the eject-model could help it, so you get a proper chance to give up if you feel so
moreover, it is hard to replace a ragequit player. once the player is gone his res are gone along with him. so a fair system that favors the "replacement" could be handy
a pure auto-balance would just cause a bad feeling of being forced to join M/A and probably make you quit too. better try to not make anyone quit in case one rages
(i did not read all posts sorry if already mentioned)