Do the developers favor aliens?
livingin360
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146657Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146657Members
I have played NS as commander for over 120 hours... sad i know. I noticed playing aliens is always laid back and the marines are always in a frenzy with anxiety to try to beat the aliens. I believe this is unfair and like a game of chess should be equal. I want to feel like the aliens have to use intelligence to win also. Onos is way too overpowered and just alien damage is too high in general. If not that get Heavy armor and HMG's to combat it asap. With armories fully upgraded and weapons and armors fully upgraded it doesnt even touch onos or aliens and it just makes me angry. I usually start the game and take all the resource nodes and they are left with one. they get fades and then wipe us out even after getting level 2 weapons and armor and shotties and mines and then they get onos with maybe two rt's and its game over with fully upgraded weapons and armor. I am putting out a angry petition to the developers to stop favoring aliens and make it balanced. When i join aliens and they are also in a frenzy to survive then i know your balancing the game. The game is so unbalanced its a joke.... also a good thing would be weapon damage upgrades. I think the marine rifle is a powerful tool in itself and marines should be able to permanently upgrade them with their individual resources.
Comments
They can't flip a switch and make the game perfect, and there are plenty of people who are vocal about what they think is wrong with the game. It takes a lot of time and effort to take a messy design and turn it into a product you can be proud of. The build 208 patch notes provide plenty of evidence that they're listening to the community, and trying our suggestions.
My advice is to boil your post down to a couple simple ideas and start thinking of solutions...a big wall of text will only be met with a lot of generic responses from people who want to raise their postcount (like this very post).
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Snip - If you cannot engage with your fellow humans in a constructive and friendly manner your posts will be removed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Thats great. I'm sure UWE will fix the problem.
But theres too many trolls here who like to post things like "But they worked so hard on the Onos animations and sounds, therefore there should be lots of Onos in each game!" (seriously, I've seen this posted here).
The second thing to remember is PARSING YOUR POSTS MAKES IT EASIER TO READ (OP). If you put walls of texts without breaking them up into paragraphs or some form of other more easily read trains of thought, people are less likely to read them.
The third thing to remember is the last 3 major patches have been primarily about Aliens. While this has happened we have heard trickles of information about where they want to take Marines, but it seems to me that UWE is trying to get a lot of work done for Aliens, and then do a lot of work on Marines.
I would worry less on the state of the game now, and worry more on reporting bugs, and critical input. The game would never launch in it's current condition, that's why they have BETA testing.
As a result, development on Exos, HMGs and other Marine features which have not yet been implemented in public builds have been stopped, in favor of making the Marines make a truly hilarious farty-noise when they fall over due to Stomp.
As a result, development on Exos, HMGs and other Marine features which have not yet been implemented in public builds have been stopped, in favor of making the Marines make a truly hilarious farty-noise when they fall over due to Stomp.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as funny as this post is to some idiot reading the forums right now, the serious idea hidden behind it is really sad
if you think exosuits will have any impact on the core problems with the aliens, you are wrong and will see for yourself when they add the exosuit!
<!--quoteo(post=1937412:date=May 19 2012, 04:12 PM:name=BloodyIron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BloodyIron @ May 19 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first thing to always remember is this is a Beta stage game. Things will constantly change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what I said would happen. you post anything disagreeing with anything in any context, and SOMEONE is waiting to post "It's a beta". it's amazing!
Do you think that a major gameplay issue would just be missed during testing?
Or perhaps it's a beta, where the new things being tried and resulting missteps that normally aren't visible to the paying public (who are used to complaining about the balance on a <i>finished</i> game constantly) actually get seen.
Now, back to my coffee, and playing with the.. um. Something that <i>totally</i> isn't the exosuit alpha.
Suffice it to say that a group of professionals, with large financial investment in this game, would in no way benefit from favouring aliens, or marines. One build may lean towards aliens, another towards marines, but remember that imbalance is the natural state, balance requires time and hard work.
define 'testing' and I'll name the ones I can remember :)
There's a difference between 'missed in alpha testing' and 'added to the list to review for the next build, while releasing the current as beta'.
Missing implies a lack of awareness that the issue is present.
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Snip - Keep yourself civil.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
As for the exo not fixing the "core problems with the aliens", well, this statement is quite wide spread and rather confusing to me. I understand that simply balancing a game which is not fun would not suddenly make it fun, but this is not the case in question. The "core problems" are identified on the basis that it is claimed that the alien team wins to frequently and too easily, while I think everyone maintains that the game is fun to play. How the exo suit would fail to address this perceived "core problem" I do not understand. Similarly, removing the Onos would, in effect, address the "core problem", by leaving aliens hopelessly underpowered and constantly defeated. Individuals would then identify "core problems with the marines", and state that the inclusion of the Onos could not possibly address them.
In my humblest and most personal of opinions, people who say that the exo suit cannot address "core problems" are trying to glorify the issues with the balance in this current build. They are trying to make the issues seem more complex or deep or meaningful than they are. However, this may just be the coping mechanism my mind employs when people claim that a big ######off metal behemoth suit with miniguns and railguns isn't going to make a difference.
I think.
Probably.
I've heard.
Oh look, coffee!
It's not as simple as "the exosuit is good at fighting the onos, so putting the exosuit in will make the marines better at fighting the onos." While that's true, it won't come up often in games that are actually played in the real world.
It's obvious that in the current version of the game, the problem is that too many onos can be out too quickly, not that exosuits don't exist to fight them.
<!--quoteo(post=1937435:date=May 19 2012, 04:53 PM:name=Not Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not Flayra @ May 19 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a difference between 'missed in alpha testing' and 'added to the list to review for the next build, while releasing the current as beta'.
Missing implies a lack of awareness that the issue is present.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, so in that case I would point at something like <i>mass lerks killing the command chair</i>. It was not noticed by the playtesting group because they simply must not have tried doing it, and then when public/competitive players started doing it, there was a kneejerk reaction to fix it which ruined spikes in many "normal" contexts (shooting down an extractor, for instance). Where are we now, with this? You can still do it because command chairs are still paper thin, and 5 or 10 lerks still do insane damage to a command chair together. If/when the starting pres is reduced, it won't be possible to do the mass lerk attack at any abusive timings, but the spike energy cost will still be ridiculously punishing because that change was the wrong one.
Another good example is from when the rifle butt outranged the skulk's bite. I doubt anyone testing internally was able to justify that, and they certainly didn't notice it for like 200 builds even though it's fundamentally very wrong. Did no one check to see what the range of the two attacks was? Were they....<i>unaware</i>?
Not to overly simplify this important problem, but you're kind of saying that you have the number 1, and you have the number 2, and those are the only options we have. And that is true, if we are only considering the integers. But, if you look a little closer, you will actually see that there are an infinite amount of values between them, and if we look long enough, we just might find a 1.5.
and the 1.5 depends on adjusting the timing of when you can get onos, and how many of them you can get, as well
(which is the core problem/solution, and has nothing to do with the exosuit unless you add it to complicate things)
But, from the games I've played here's the types of games I see :
A > M: Marines players aren't particularly good, they can't hold anymore than two harvesters and they are face-rolled - Whether they die to Fades or Onos or Leap Skulks is irrelevant the game is over in the first five minutes.
A == M: Both teams hold 3-4 RT's and both teams lose one or two RT's each, aliens get up second hive and it's normally a relatively even game up until the time when Onos come out, two or three Onos pop out at the same time and the game is either immediately over or the Marines have lost too much ground.
A < M: Marines are dominating for the first 4 minutes, the Aliens hold 2-3 RT's once Carapace is out things start to even out and when Leap comes up the Aliens can hold their own ground easily enough the Marines will hold 4-6 RT's and they will try to set-up a forward base or go upgrade heavy.
Unfortunately again three Onos come out and the Marines die.
A << M : There's a massive skillstack for Marines too many RT's die or a mid-game rush ends it, not enough time to get an Onos out or a second hive.
The trouble is against a mildly competent alien team you cannot really win (there are spawn positions where this isn't true) say Warehouse(M) vs. Server(A). Even when Marines are ahead for the entire game it DOES NOT MATTER because there is no stability in Alien power growth.
Back when Aliens were tied to the Hives there was a Steady Progression now it's:
Regular (Marine advantage)
Carapace (Insane combat boost) (Marine slight disadvantage)
Leap (Insane mobility and combat boost) (Marines cannot win a 1v1)
Now Marines are playing catch-up, honestly I'm happy to fight 2 2 Marines with any weapon as a Carapace-Leap skulk.
The trouble is when Marines hit the level where they are able to handle the Skulks coming out at the 4-6 minute mark - Onos.
Playing a Marine is like trying to catch a car that just set off, unless you get lucky cutting a corner and jump on the bonnet it's gonna get farther and farther away from you.
Just saying, the PT Group tests many things and provides feedback accordingly. We did have this happen in internal playtests and provided feedback way before it was happening in public competitive games (as we have access to the internal builds). However, in game development sometimes it takes time to work out what needs changing and how best to go forward with it in that iteration.
Just quoting yourself in another thread here:
<!--quoteo(post=1937449:date=May 19 2012, 10:27 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 19 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because they can get feedback on it now, and improve it in ways they otherwise wouldn't have with the next revision<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You kind of just said exactly what we do. Test things, try them, give feedback both positive and negative. Sometimes it's worth trying it out on a larger scale such as lerk bile bomb. If things don't work out, they get rolled back. Like they are. This kind of game development doesn't normally happen publicly, but this is just one way in which <b>everyone</b> in this community is helping to shape the game by playing and giving detailed feedback.
It is difficult to put it into words - one won't be easier than the other, but they will be a very distinct experience.
Marine commanders have buckets of things to do, all of which hinges on marines obeying him. Its a much more tense affair.
Marine teams lose from people not following orders, alien teams lose from not knowing their roles. This leads to tension for marines, but not for aliens, since as a marine player your role is constantly changing based on new orders. Alien players can choose the role they most like. However implying that aliens aren't using their intelligence when they play is trolling.
actually no, they lose because the game doesn't let them land shots while aliens barely have to aim
nice try, though
My opinion on all of this?
1. It's a beta. If you're having issues don't play it right now and check in later. I'm sure you'll like what you see.
2. Gameplay aside, what UWE is doing with this game is not only amazing, but arguably revolutionary. Does EA release bleeding alphas/betas of their games and have a forum were you can talk to the developers about issues you're seeing in the game? Did Bethesda take time out of their work every weeks to keep up twitter, facebook, the blog, and do live Q&As during production of Skyrim? How much in venture capitalist investments has UWE taken to fund this, ultimately losing partial creative license in favor of sales numbers?
My point is the fact you're on a forum talking to the people building the games is reason enough to enjoy it, even support it. They could ignore us, they could remove bad press posts, but they don't because they care about the community and this game. To me, that's worth it.
Finally, it's a video game dude.... relax and enjoy it. It's meant for entertainment. If you're having panic attacks and filled with rage while playing it, you might be doing something wrong. :p
I find it particulary baffling once I think on it for what it means for the alien side, and I say it from the paerspective of a n00b who's played almost exclusively as a marine. It ultimately means that better performance won't increase the skill ceiling for aliens, or will do it marginally. Does that mean that current performance is ok for aliens. Well, I refuse to believe it. I have the same trouble knowing where the marine is a alien at 5 FPS as I have troble where the alien is as a marine at the same FPS.
Or does that mean that current performance is ok for aliens because their combat style is a crapshoot? You faceroll on your spacebar, move the mouse in random directions and your chance of success isn't much different as if you tried to be skilled at all? Or it means that once you have a higer lifeform you'll win basically any encounter unless you basically crash your computer, so performance isn't very important?
Either way, I think that means the game has a quite serious, fundamental problem.
Marine Team: Crush the aliens and dominate the entire map with absolute certainty and have 85% of tech researched before Onos are on the field.
Alien Commander: Make cyst lines and do whatever you want for the most part as long as you get crag hive, carapace, and augment. Use extra TRes to spam crags all over the map and spam whips in your base, and all over the map if possible as well. Get regen if you want, but you don't need it to win in any way. You can pretty much jump out unless you need to redrop an RT.
Marine Commander: Pay attention to everything on the map, manage giving marines medkits, manage energy costs, manage directing marines, decide whether or not to recycle dying structures, adjust your play to the skill of your marines, decide on upgrades, respond to marine requests for ammo and etc., drop scans. Overall nothing on alien commander compares to the difficulty of marine commanding in either mechanical skill or strategic skill.
Alien commander may as well be called Master Gorge at this point. All they really do is just drop RTs, a cara shell, and get augment. They can do more but their team shouldn't need much more to win. Marine comm is more of an actual comm experience rather than just dropping stuff; you actually have to direct your marines and make actual tech decisions (shade hives still atrociously bad and shift doesn't look spectacular so far).
But, the devs don't favor any particular side. They just often don't realize the errors of some decisions and ultimately the way the game actually unfolds sometimes.
I find it particulary baffling once I think on it for what it means for the alien side, and I say it from the paerspective of a n00b who's played almost exclusively as a marine. It ultimately means that better performance won't increase the skill ceiling for aliens, or will do it marginally. Does that mean that current performance is ok for aliens. Well, I refuse to believe it. I have the same trouble knowing where the marine is a alien at 5 FPS as I have troble where the alien is as a marine at the same FPS.
Or does that mean that current performance is ok for aliens because their combat style is a crapshoot? You faceroll on your spacebar, move the mouse in random directions and your chance of success isn't much different as if you tried to be skilled at all? Or it means that once you have a higer lifeform you'll win basically any encounter unless you basically crash your computer, so performance isn't very important?
Either way, I think that means the game has a quite serious, fundamental problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What it comes down to, for certain robotically inclined players, is that as long as you can see it, you can shoot it. The skulk relies on not being shot, rather than not being seen, which is the problem. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be this way, I'm just saying that that's why performance increases favour marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1937568:date=May 20 2012, 08:04 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 20 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But, the devs don't favor any particular side. They just often don't realize the errors of some decisions and ultimately the way the game actually unfolds sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank god they have you to explain it in such unbiased terms.