IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Another benefit of Charlie's over this model is that the OP's version would reward the whole team pres, instead of the individual, not helping create that variance amongst the team, as RFK or charlie's would. (regarding encouraging the frequency of naturally occurring Mass tech.)
<!--quoteo(post=1938062:date=May 22 2012, 03:55 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, i meant since powernodes and power packs are dropped by only Marine Comm, and infestation is only dropped by Alien comm, that the players are dependent on their single comm to reap the rewards of this proposed rfk system. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes this is true, but players individual skills also add up as a team to the comms capability, so it's indirect not inexistent (to continue our discussion 2-3 posts back). (And btw, players are already dependent on MUCH more things from comm to reap MUCH greater rewards.)
<!--quoteo(post=1938062:date=May 22 2012, 03:55 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... For example, if the alien comm was using his energy for other means throughout the game then he doesnt have enough energy left for cysting into, or near the marine base to prevent the marine team - who is losing - from gaining res for defending. This system places all the responsibility of the extra income on one person, the commander. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. That is ONE very specific case. In it, aliens could as well lure marines out onto their territory. Or atleast only attack all at once in waves. Nothing says the kham is supposed to always be able to deny RFK to marines. 2. I would like cysts to cost TR again, as per here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118603" target="_blank">cysts cost energy again?</a> (would actually create a tradeoff: invest/risk in cysts to get rfk OR play it safer and keep that res for other things)
<!--quoteo(post=1938075:date=May 22 2012, 05:08 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another benefit of Charlie's over this model is that the OP's version would reward the whole team pres, instead of the individual, not helping create that variance amongst the team, as RFK or charlie's would. (regarding encouraging the frequency of naturally occurring Mass tech.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think I specified this! Good you bring it up. Clarification: PR as player reward to the hero making the kill and TR as collective team reward.
<!--quoteo(post=1938037:date=May 22 2012, 02:36 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 22 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just had an elegant (I think!) idea to address this without adding RFK:
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its a bad ide tbh and it will only make players stop going in combat and going to be a problem fore the team!!!!!and i like the rfk ide about getting a small amounts of player res like ns1, it will make that onos dont get in early in the game if you slow down player res from harvest/rt. why don't you won't to reward playrs/team that doing something right like killing and stop the enemy team to expand? i think you are traying to make so players that are not so god to not get a dawn side, players wont a game where you get reward fore be god
<!--quoteo(post=1938037:date=May 22 2012, 02:36 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 22 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just had an elegant (I think!) idea to address this without adding RFK:
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes a lot of sense actually. To those of you saying this will encourage camping, you're looking at it the wrong way. If you just sit back you're not doing anything to help your team. In the case of marines, what you want to do is go out there and kill aliens to deny them the pres so that your commander can tech up before fades enter the field. Likewise for aliens, you want to deny the marines bigger guns so that you can easier retain map control until the hive matures etc.
So it doesn't matter if you die yourself. Your goal should be to delay the enemy so that you're better prepared techwise when the bigger guns/lifeforms do come out. The preparations are in most cases done by the commander who is not affected by you dying.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1938037:date=May 22 2012, 02:36 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 22 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just had an elegant (I think!) idea to address this without adding RFK:
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better than nothing, but I actually like weezl's idea more.
one of the big problems with rfk is that it doesn't scale with team size, because by design NS is supposedly 1v1 skulk vs marine, skulk wins, 2v2 is even, and 3v3+ marines win. in larger games, 3v3+ encounters are much more common than 1v1s, skewing the rfk in marine's favor. rfk also screws with life form timings real bad.
*edit* also i don't like the idea that people don't get res while dead. that negates the whole point of p-res in that if you were bad in NS1 you never got the good stuff because you would lose it. same deal here. some noob who goes 1-10 and doesn't get any res has 0 incentive to continue playing the game and get better at it.
sorry, but damn right it serves as a snowball mechanic, this isn't a game of soccer or something, its a strategy game. you lose an engagement there should be punishment of some form. Charlie your idea you proposed would be excellent, roughly a 0.5 to 0.75 p-res stake per every death effectively, possibly more if skulks die alone rather than in waves.
<!--quoteo(post=1938093:date=May 22 2012, 07:36 AM:name=Tha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tha @ May 22 2012, 07:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sorry, but damn right it serves as a snowball mechanic, this isn't a game of soccer or something, its a strategy game. you lose an engagement there should be punishment of some form. Charlie your idea you proposed would be excellent, roughly a 0.5 to 0.75 p-res stake per every death effectively, possibly more if skulks die alone rather than in waves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Punishment already occurs as a result of reduction in territory control, respawn times, and potential loss of PRes. I don't see the need to layer any other systems on top of that.
I think that both RFK and res-for-living impact player behaviors in ways that are potentially positive but not necessarily. It's easy for players to take the wrong lesson from either when they're thinking about themselves and not their team. RFK encourages reckless aggression, RFL encourages cowardice.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.
<!--quoteo(post=1938037:date=May 22 2012, 12:36 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 22 2012, 12:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just had an elegant (I think!) idea to address this without adding RFK:
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Posted this on twitter thread also, but whatever...
I don't think a change like that is going to be anywhere effective enough. You're maybe creating a sligthly wider time frame for tech explosion, but that's it. People are still most likely going to hit the res inside a specific minute or so and even that kind of difference isn't guaranteed by any means.
I also don't particularly like the idea that you're going to get the lifeform fastest by AFKing on the hive. Obviously it provides some strategical aspects between participating in the game and sticking to a more passive role, but I really don't think it's good design to encourage more passive play without a damn good reason.
---
In general, I think we first need to figure out some bigger change and then possibly refine it with RFK or this or some other smaller change. Just little tinkering with small mechanics isn't going to create any consistent solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1938109:date=May 22 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 22 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess it creates more diversion possibly, but that's it really. It doesn't guarantee any spread in res peaks or create any wider gaps.
It also kind of discourages going in first. It's already a pretty ungrateful job to initiate bigger fights with skulk to allow the follow up guys to pick up the RFK. I can kind of accept that some people have to be sacrificed in alien gameplay, but obviously I'd like to keep the gap small and avoid punishing the support players more than it already happens.
<!--quoteo(post=1938037:date=May 21 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ May 21 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just had an elegant (I think!) idea to address this without adding RFK:
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would encourage selfish play more than anything. Sure, it would create some variance and bad players would be bad, but it would reward people who don't take risks like going for enemy RTs, trying to slow down pushes, running counterattacks etc. Just overall team oriented mindsets would be discouraged and punished.
I think Zek's idea is much more elegant if you're going to go down the RFK/RFL route:
<!--quoteo(post=1938109:date=May 22 2012, 02:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 22 2012, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that both RFK and res-for-living impact player behaviors in ways that are potentially positive but not necessarily. It's easy for players to take the wrong lesson from either when they're thinking about themselves and not their team. RFK encourages reckless aggression, RFL encourages cowardice.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although IMO, proper p-res sinks for the alien team would be the best solution by far because it doesn't punish or reward any particular playstyle. The marines have mines and welders which do a decent job of it, aliens have not a single p-res sink aside from Lifeforms.
I think the tech explosion wise, we really should be considering something bigger. You can play around with little details all day long, but the aliens are still going to hit the same res peaks almost simultaneously. Ducttaping extra features into it can make things look a bit nicer, but the same fundamental problems remain and you're going to run into them again and again while designing and balancing the game further. Some bigger plan is needed.
---
Otherwise RFK discussion is certainly cool and interesting. It's a damn interesting mechanic in general and could do a lot of good for some designs.
<!--quoteo(post=1938109:date=May 22 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 22 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that both RFK and res-for-living impact player behaviors in ways that are potentially positive but not necessarily. It's easy for players to take the wrong lesson from either when they're thinking about themselves and not their team. RFK encourages reckless aggression, RFL encourages cowardice.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This to me sounds like a great idea, for the reasons you've specified. Would be happy to see this added!
There are multiple aspects to this "tech explosion" and I think it would be naive to suggest that RFK or a similar system would be the miracle fix. Other outstanding issues (such as the 1 hive onos being retardedly strong and having nothing to spend pres on) will still exist, but this is at least a step in the right direction
I think no-res during death would penalize new players too much.
Also it would be better to have a constant res cost for dying, because no-res during death would be changing if spawn rate is changed, and would cost you more the more rt's you have (you loose more by dying when you have a lot of rt's), which is a bit weird.
The fairest system (that don't advantage good players or disadvantage new players) is to have random pres distribution. By tuning the variance around 50 pres you can tune the "tech explosion strengh".
<!--quoteo(post=1938129:date=May 22 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 22 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think no-res during death would penalize new players too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
penalize new players? or teach them they need to group up for safety?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it would be better to have a constant res cost for dying, because no-res during death would be changing if spawn rate is changed, and would cost you more the more rt's you have (you loose more by dying when you have a lot of rt's), which is a bit weird.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constant res cost on death is not scaleable, and will have a much larger effect early game than at end game. Losing incoming res during death scales nicely as in late game with many RTs, you stand to lose much more than in the initial rush period of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fairest system (that don't advantage good players or disadvantage new players) is to have random pres distribution. By tuning the variance around 50 pres you can tune the "tech explosion strengh".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random pres distribution? sounds a bit silly, I dont see how this is any "fairer" or better than the current system.
<!--quoteo(post=1938144:date=May 22 2012, 01:59 PM:name=DethGaunt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DethGaunt @ May 22 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Random pres distribution? sounds a bit silly, I dont see how this is any "fairer" or better than the current system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Res loss for death penalize players that dies a lot and res for kills favors players that kills a lot, they are meritocratic systems. With random pres distribution everybody as an equal chance of hitting 50 pres first, irrespective of skill or anything, it's a egalitarian system.
If you want that not everybody hits 50 pres at the same time and that no particular player skill class or play style is favored then random pres is the way to go. If you want to favor particular player behavior or skill class then pres loss for death and pres for kill are the solutions.
<!--quoteo(post=1938148:date=May 22 2012, 01:18 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 22 2012, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Res loss for death penalize players that dies a lot and res for kills favors players that kills a lot, they are meritocratic systems. With random pres distribution everybody as an equal chance of hitting 50 pres first, irrespective of skill or anything, it's a egalitarian system.
If you want that not everybody hits 50 pres at the same time and that no particular player skill class or play style is favored then random pres is the way to go. If you want to favor particular player behavior or skill class then pres loss for death and pres for kill are the solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If good players aren't rewarded and bad players aren't penalized, then why do we even bother playing? NS2 is not a typical Facebook game where you can just roll your face on the keyboard and then suddenly be able to go fade.
NS2 has depth. It requires knowledge and skill which is one of the reasons it attracts the playerbase it does. What you are suggesting removes the need to even try.
I really think things are being blown out of proportions. RFK had barely any effect on how people played NS1 because the risk/reward was already embedded into the conflict outcome (or the absence of it). RFK only served to act as an individual reward that varied timings a little. It was far less important in NS1 because there were enough sinks to avoid tech explosions (rt, chambers, hive, ocs). NS2 has literally none of these sinks which is why some alternate way of differentiating resource counts is even more important. The more I think about it, the more I feel compelled to agree with Bac that a res-for-living solution will be insufficient on its own.
Zek's combination proposal isn't bad but then I have wonder why, once we have rfk, we would need a further "hidden" and negative mechanic?
And let's drop the pretence that this game is going to be bad-on-baddies and good-on-goodies just because of some small resource tweak. It pales in comparison to being able to take a lifeform in the first place - or upgrade your weapons for that matter.
There is <b>many</b> other ways good players are rewarded, for example winning the game.
You should also remember that players are not rewarded or penalized by pres currently.
@Tweadle, I agree, if you want to spread out the tech explosion in time in a significant manner then you will need pres for kill, pres cost for death or random pres to be quite strong, and thus probably becoming problematic. But what else could players do with their pres ?
These systems seem to be overly complicated, and when they get so, are reigned back in. It will just make things so hard for players to get to grips with.
Why not just do it based on damage given as a percentage, not of the kill, but of damage... Take 1% of a lifeforms/structures health, get 'x' amount.
(1) When you score a point you get more than your normal (fair) share of Pres from the team pie of Pres
(2a) Alien structures like the defense tower can overheal, but it decays, so the structure needs to be placed forward from the hive, so aliens need more structures (2b) Allow the Alien comm to use energy on a gorge to allow the gorge to transform into a non-research structure.
(4) Having more comm stations regenerates energy faster for more meds/ammo/cat (5) Alien comm can spend energy to cause unpowered rooms to fade back and forth to red and black, i miss that effect
I actually would like to try out preventing pres gain on death for a number of reasons.
1) This creates a variation albeit most likely small in player pres. (aliens probably need more pres sinks in addition, such as upgrades costing again)
2) Killing an opponent rewards your whole team as it slows down a higher lifeform or a better weapon that they would have had to soon fight against. This is contrary to RFK where killing a player primarily rewarded you the individual (which of course helped the team but only you got to directly experience the benefits).
3) Dying isn't as brutal as RFK. With RFK if you died you would be causing the other team to be able to have higher lifeforms/weapons faster. With this system dying means only you won't be able to get an upgrade at time X. This also means that a higher lifeform/weapon can never come before time X as pres is only gained through extractors. This makes it a bit easier to balance timings as well.
Now this does create the issue of people playing too careful or camping. However I'd like to believe (probably naively) that if you have players staying away from combat your team has already lost the game. If you aren't out at least being semi-aggresive you aren't going to hold extractors or maintain map control to give your team the upper hand. Your team is essentially playing a man down until time X and thus they should lose before time X when that higher lifeform can come.
This approach will favor lifeforms that doesn't die as frequently as Skulks (namely 10 res Gorge and Khamm), who will have even less of an incentive to not evolve into Fade or Onos. Yes, maybe Gorges and Hydras should be something for early games (and sporadically when people that get killed quickly as a higher lifeform and can't afford anything else and don't want to play as Skulk go Gorge). As for Khamm's being forced to go Fade and Onos, I don't know... Maybe the Khamm shouldn't gain any p-res at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1938170:date=May 22 2012, 03:10 PM:name=thane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thane @ May 22 2012, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(1) When you score a point you get more than your normal (fair) share of Pres from the team pie of Pres<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure about that specific idea, but getting more or less out of the automatically distributed pres sounds like the only effective way or significantly changing the lifeform timings (assuming we aren't adding res sinks like player buildings)
Comments
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes this is true, but players individual skills also add up as a team to the comms capability, so it's indirect not inexistent (to continue our discussion 2-3 posts back).
(And btw, players are already dependent on MUCH more things from comm to reap MUCH greater rewards.)
<!--quoteo(post=1938062:date=May 22 2012, 03:55 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
For example, if the alien comm was using his energy for other means throughout the game then he doesnt have enough energy left for cysting into, or near the marine base to prevent the marine team - who is losing - from gaining res for defending. This system places all the responsibility of the extra income on one person, the commander.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. That is ONE very specific case. In it, aliens could as well lure marines out onto their territory. Or atleast only attack all at once in waves. Nothing says the kham is supposed to always be able to deny RFK to marines.
2. I would like cysts to cost TR again, as per here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118603" target="_blank">cysts cost energy again?</a>
(would actually create a tradeoff: invest/risk in cysts to get rfk OR play it safer and keep that res for other things)
<!--quoteo(post=1938075:date=May 22 2012, 05:08 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 22 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938075"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another benefit of Charlie's over this model is that the OP's version would reward the whole team pres, instead of the individual, not helping create that variance amongst the team, as RFK or charlie's would. (regarding encouraging the frequency of naturally occurring Mass tech.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I specified this! Good you bring it up. Clarification: PR as player reward to the hero making the kill and TR as collective team reward.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its a bad ide tbh and it will only make players stop going in combat and going to be a problem fore the team!!!!!and i like the rfk ide about getting a small amounts of player res like ns1, it will make that onos dont get in early in the game if you slow down player res from harvest/rt.
why don't you won't to reward playrs/team that doing something right like killing and stop the enemy team to expand?
i think you are traying to make so players that are not so god to not get a dawn side, players wont a game where you get reward fore be god
sorry i am not the beast writer :)
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes a lot of sense actually. To those of you saying this will encourage camping, you're looking at it the wrong way. If you just sit back you're not doing anything to help your team. In the case of marines, what you want to do is go out there and kill aliens to deny them the pres so that your commander can tech up before fades enter the field. Likewise for aliens, you want to deny the marines bigger guns so that you can easier retain map control until the hive matures etc.
So it doesn't matter if you die yourself. Your goal should be to delay the enemy so that you're better prepared techwise when the bigger guns/lifeforms do come out. The preparations are in most cases done by the commander who is not affected by you dying.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better than nothing, but I actually like weezl's idea more.
*edit* also i don't like the idea that people don't get res while dead. that negates the whole point of p-res in that if you were bad in NS1 you never got the good stuff because you would lose it. same deal here. some noob who goes 1-10 and doesn't get any res has 0 incentive to continue playing the game and get better at it.
Punishment already occurs as a result of reduction in territory control, respawn times, and potential loss of PRes. I don't see the need to layer any other systems on top of that.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.
Stops people stealing kills, rewards structure killers and player killers...
Stick a damage delt number on the scoreboard.
If it gets complex, just work it out as a percentage of the thing you are attackings health.
Also, unbuilt structures have lower % so u get rewarded less.
Oh, and when you kill stuff you get percentage points, rather than useless +20 for hives, etc.. So it actually means more.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Posted this on twitter thread also, but whatever...
I don't think a change like that is going to be anywhere effective enough. You're maybe creating a sligthly wider time frame for tech explosion, but that's it. People are still most likely going to hit the res inside a specific minute or so and even that kind of difference isn't guaranteed by any means.
I also don't particularly like the idea that you're going to get the lifeform fastest by AFKing on the hive. Obviously it provides some strategical aspects between participating in the game and sticking to a more passive role, but I really don't think it's good design to encourage more passive play without a damn good reason.
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In general, I think we first need to figure out some bigger change and then possibly refine it with RFK or this or some other smaller change. Just little tinkering with small mechanics isn't going to create any consistent solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1938109:date=May 22 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 22 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it creates more diversion possibly, but that's it really. It doesn't guarantee any spread in res peaks or create any wider gaps.
It also kind of discourages going in first. It's already a pretty ungrateful job to initiate bigger fights with skulk to allow the follow up guys to pick up the RFK. I can kind of accept that some people have to be sacrificed in alien gameplay, but obviously I'd like to keep the gap small and avoid punishing the support players more than it already happens.
How about players don't get pres from active Harvesters/Extractors when they're dead? So if you're alive, you're naturally getting a bit more res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this would encourage selfish play more than anything. Sure, it would create some variance and bad players would be bad, but it would reward people who don't take risks like going for enemy RTs, trying to slow down pushes, running counterattacks etc. Just overall team oriented mindsets would be discouraged and punished.
I think Zek's idea is much more elegant if you're going to go down the RFK/RFL route:
<!--quoteo(post=1938109:date=May 22 2012, 02:10 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ May 22 2012, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that both RFK and res-for-living impact player behaviors in ways that are potentially positive but not necessarily. It's easy for players to take the wrong lesson from either when they're thinking about themselves and not their team. RFK encourages reckless aggression, RFL encourages cowardice.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although IMO, proper p-res sinks for the alien team would be the best solution by far because it doesn't punish or reward any particular playstyle. The marines have mines and welders which do a decent job of it, aliens have not a single p-res sink aside from Lifeforms.
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Otherwise RFK discussion is certainly cool and interesting. It's a damn interesting mechanic in general and could do a lot of good for some designs.
What if we combined the two? You get normal res flow when alive, and bonus res for kills, but nothing at all while dead. So you're rewarded for succeeding in combat but punished for taking bad gambles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This to me sounds like a great idea, for the reasons you've specified. Would be happy to see this added!
There are multiple aspects to this "tech explosion" and I think it would be naive to suggest that RFK or a similar system would be the miracle fix. Other outstanding issues (such as the 1 hive onos being retardedly strong and having nothing to spend pres on) will still exist, but this is at least a step in the right direction
Also it would be better to have a constant res cost for dying, because no-res during death would be changing if spawn rate is changed, and would cost you more the more rt's you have (you loose more by dying when you have a lot of rt's), which is a bit weird.
The fairest system (that don't advantage good players or disadvantage new players) is to have random pres distribution. By tuning the variance around 50 pres you can tune the "tech explosion strengh".
penalize new players? or teach them they need to group up for safety?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it would be better to have a constant res cost for dying, because no-res during death would be changing if spawn rate is changed, and would cost you more the more rt's you have (you loose more by dying when you have a lot of rt's), which is a bit weird.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constant res cost on death is not scaleable, and will have a much larger effect early game than at end game. Losing incoming res during death scales nicely as in late game with many RTs, you stand to lose much more than in the initial rush period of the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fairest system (that don't advantage good players or disadvantage new players) is to have random pres distribution. By tuning the variance around 50 pres you can tune the "tech explosion strengh".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random pres distribution? sounds a bit silly, I dont see how this is any "fairer" or better than the current system.
Res loss for death penalize players that dies a lot and res for kills favors players that kills a lot, they are meritocratic systems.
With random pres distribution everybody as an equal chance of hitting 50 pres first, irrespective of skill or anything, it's a egalitarian system.
If you want that not everybody hits 50 pres at the same time and that no particular player skill class or play style is favored then random pres is the way to go. If you want to favor particular player behavior or skill class then pres loss for death and pres for kill are the solutions.
With random pres distribution everybody as an equal chance of hitting 50 pres first, irrespective of skill or anything, it's a egalitarian system.
If you want that not everybody hits 50 pres at the same time and that no particular player skill class or play style is favored then random pres is the way to go. If you want to favor particular player behavior or skill class then pres loss for death and pres for kill are the solutions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If good players aren't rewarded and bad players aren't penalized, then why do we even bother playing? NS2 is not a typical Facebook game where you can just roll your face on the keyboard and then suddenly be able to go fade.
NS2 has depth. It requires knowledge and skill which is one of the reasons it attracts the playerbase it does. What you are suggesting removes the need to even try.
Zek's combination proposal isn't bad but then I have wonder why, once we have rfk, we would need a further "hidden" and negative mechanic?
Rewarded or penalized by pres gain/loss.
There is <b>many</b> other ways good players are rewarded, for example winning the game.
You should also remember that players are not rewarded or penalized by pres currently.
@Tweadle,
I agree, if you want to spread out the tech explosion in time in a significant manner then you will need pres for kill, pres cost for death or random pres to be quite strong, and thus probably becoming problematic. But what else could players do with their pres ?
Why not just do it based on damage given as a percentage, not of the kill, but of damage... Take 1% of a lifeforms/structures health, get 'x' amount.
(2a) Alien structures like the defense tower can overheal, but it decays, so the structure needs to be placed forward from the hive, so aliens need more structures
(2b) Allow the Alien comm to use energy on a gorge to allow the gorge to transform into a non-research structure.
(4) Having more comm stations regenerates energy faster for more meds/ammo/cat
(5) Alien comm can spend energy to cause unpowered rooms to fade back and forth to red and black, i miss that effect
1) This creates a variation albeit most likely small in player pres. (aliens probably need more pres sinks in addition, such as upgrades costing again)
2) Killing an opponent rewards your whole team as it slows down a higher lifeform or a better weapon that they would have had to soon fight against. This is contrary to RFK where killing a player primarily rewarded you the individual (which of course helped the team but only you got to directly experience the benefits).
3) Dying isn't as brutal as RFK. With RFK if you died you would be causing the other team to be able to have higher lifeforms/weapons faster. With this system dying means only you won't be able to get an upgrade at time X. This also means that a higher lifeform/weapon can never come before time X as pres is only gained through extractors. This makes it a bit easier to balance timings as well.
Now this does create the issue of people playing too careful or camping. However I'd like to believe (probably naively) that if you have players staying away from combat your team has already lost the game. If you aren't out at least being semi-aggresive you aren't going to hold extractors or maintain map control to give your team the upper hand. Your team is essentially playing a man down until time X and thus they should lose before time X when that higher lifeform can come.
I think it is worth trying at the very least.
I'm not sure about that specific idea, but getting more or less out of the automatically distributed pres sounds like the only effective way or significantly changing the lifeform timings (assuming we aren't adding res sinks like player buildings)