Res to "maintain" lifeform
bobrun
Join Date: 2012-03-06 Member: 148235Members
Join Date: 2012-03-06 Member: 148235Members
I taught of something that could make alien lifeforms more "valuable".
Aliens have a maximum of 100 PRes. Instead of being able to attain the maximum PRes whatever your lifeform is, it could be used that way:
Skulk : 100 max res
Gorge: 90 max res
Lerk: 70 max res
Fade: 50 max res
Onos: 25 max res
Let's say you become a Lerk. It cost you 30 PRes to become one, and while you are a Lerk, you cannot have more than 70 Pres. The 30 PRes is "used" to stay a Lerk. If you're an Onos, you cannot have more than 25 PRes in reserve, because 75 PRes is used to keep you in that lifeform.
It doesn't prevent an Onos rush, but it could give a chance for marines to fight back. They know that if they kill an Onos, it's not coming back a while. If you're an Onos and get killed, well, that's your problem. It doesn't change the game that much for Lerks and Fades. As a lerk, you can't jump directly to Onos, but you can keep an interesting reserve. And for fades, it's possible to keep an "extra" life too.
I suggest this because Aliens tend to have too much PRes these days, without anything to spend on. If the game goes on for a while, whatever your lifeform is, you always have a ton of PRes and "almost" infinite lifeforms. That way, you give more "value" to an Alien kill, without making any changes in the gameplay.
Aliens have a maximum of 100 PRes. Instead of being able to attain the maximum PRes whatever your lifeform is, it could be used that way:
Skulk : 100 max res
Gorge: 90 max res
Lerk: 70 max res
Fade: 50 max res
Onos: 25 max res
Let's say you become a Lerk. It cost you 30 PRes to become one, and while you are a Lerk, you cannot have more than 70 Pres. The 30 PRes is "used" to stay a Lerk. If you're an Onos, you cannot have more than 25 PRes in reserve, because 75 PRes is used to keep you in that lifeform.
It doesn't prevent an Onos rush, but it could give a chance for marines to fight back. They know that if they kill an Onos, it's not coming back a while. If you're an Onos and get killed, well, that's your problem. It doesn't change the game that much for Lerks and Fades. As a lerk, you can't jump directly to Onos, but you can keep an interesting reserve. And for fades, it's possible to keep an "extra" life too.
I suggest this because Aliens tend to have too much PRes these days, without anything to spend on. If the game goes on for a while, whatever your lifeform is, you always have a ton of PRes and "almost" infinite lifeforms. That way, you give more "value" to an Alien kill, without making any changes in the gameplay.
Comments
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Tier 0<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> (-> 75max)
The Skulk and the Gorge are both a Tier 0 life form. There is no need to cap the Pres other then capping it at the cost of the most expensive life form. The reason for this is to not give them an advantage when going all the way up to 100 Pres and going Onos at this point.
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Tier 0.75<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> (Lerk: 30/0.75 -> 40max)
The Lerk isn't really a Tier 1 life form, technically speaking it is more of a tier 0.5, but for this resource cap I call it a Tier 0.75. giving the possibility to go LErk once more after death, but not being able instantly go Fade or Onos with a maximum res cap of 40 resources
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Tier 2<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> (Fade, 50/2 -> 25max)
With the Fade only being able to get up to 25 resources, it will be a big blow for the aliens to lose a Fade. He has to save up for Lerk, Fade and Onos. Which might take him a while. Making sure the Fade is out of the picture for a while after killing one
<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Tier 3<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> (Onos, 75/3 -> 25max)
When an Onos goes down, it should really be a hit on the alien economies and team combat capabilities. With the cap only at 25res max, it can't go Lerk, Fade or Onos for a while and has to make due as a Skulk or Gorge for a bit. This forces the team to focus on protecting the investment in all the Oni on the field. Making sure there are Skulks, Gorges, Leks and Fades around to take up the position of the Onos when it goes down.
These caps serve a dual purpose, not only will it finally stop the reappearance of Higher life forms once they are taken down. Instead of having this endless onslaught of Higher life forms coming down onto the marine base. But the caps also make the alien's higher life forms MUCH more important. Because if only have higher life forms out in the field, your entire team will have trouble getting back to the required res for them.
In effect making it more reliable and effective to use a mixed bag team consisting of different life forms... Awesome stuff bobrun!
If the Kharaan team has enough res to instantly go Onos after a death, the game is already over - why draw it out longer?
I'd second this. I actually view it as two problems here:
1. Higher lifeforms come out way too early (lerk <5min, fade <10min, onos <15min on average)
2. Too many higher lifeforms come out at the same time (i.e. multiple people frequently save to go quick fade/onos such that marines go from facing 0 fade/onos to 3+ fade/onos at the same time; a huge jump in power)
I've rarely seen marines lose a match that they weren't already losing due to chained lifeform upgrading. However, I frequently see matches where marines suddenly go from winning to losing because of multi fade evolves at the 8min or multi onos evolves at the 10min mark.
Or keep the 100 res cap and reduce the rate earned by the higher life forms, the longer they survive, the quicker they can come back as a higher life form.
This would also skew the pRes for each individual alien, making mass changes to higher life forms less common.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest this because Aliens tend to have too much PRes these days, without anything to spend on. If the game goes on for a while, whatever your lifeform is, you always have a ton of PRes and "almost" infinite lifeforms. That way, you give more "value" to an Alien kill, without making any changes in the gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that it will not solve the problem that higher lifeforms all appears after 8 minutes, that's not what this suggestion is about.
It's about creating scarcity to higher lifeforms. Especially since those lifeforms have all the tools to survive a while. It could also help balance. Onos could be even stronger, that it would not be a big deal, because marines will know that when an Onos goes down, it goes down for a while. Trying to chase a Fade right now is almost irrelevant, because good Fades don't die easily, so you know the minute you kill the guy, he's going to be back as a Fade, since he's not using his PRes because he never dies.
My view is that if Aliens have many high lifeforms, they should have a clear advantage over Marines. But if Marines kills some Aliens (with good teamwork and good usage of their tools), they should be able to counter-attack and have the advantage for a little while. Right now, even if Marines defend themselves against a wave of Fades or Onos, and maybe kill them, they rarely have enough time to organize a counter-attack, because Fades and Onos just pop back.
Also, it's not a nerf. Aliens lifeforms are supposed to be viable from early-game to end-game. Skulks and Gorge should still be useful against LV3 Marines.
Except they don't. Hydra's don't do piss against a3 Marines. And skulks are a joke against a Marine with a3, w3 and a shotgun.
It's still a nerf.
I agree that it will not solve the problem that higher lifeforms all appears after 8 minutes, that's not what this suggestion is about.
It's about creating scarcity to higher lifeforms. Especially since those lifeforms have all the tools to survive a while. It could also help balance. Onos could be even stronger, that it would not be a big deal, because marines will know that when an Onos goes down, it goes down for a while. Trying to chase a Fade right now is almost irrelevant, because good Fades don't die easily, so you know the minute you kill the guy, he's going to be back as a Fade, since he's not using his PRes because he never dies.
My view is that if Aliens have many high lifeforms, they should have a clear advantage over Marines. But if Marines kills some Aliens (with good teamwork and good usage of their tools), they should be able to counter-attack and have the advantage for a little while. Right now, even if Marines defend themselves against a wave of Fades or Onos, and maybe kill them, they rarely have enough time to organize a counter-attack, because Fades and Onos just pop back.
Also, it's not a nerf. Aliens lifeforms are supposed to be viable from early-game to end-game. Skulks and Gorge should still be useful against LV3 Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So then how do we go about minimising the number of shotguns, jet packs or exo's (when released)?
What benefit does an alien get if they much a jp'ing gl'er? Marine simply spawns, buys gl and jp and is back in the action (assuming they have enough res towers). He can even go and pick up his old gun for no cost if he can get to where he died.
As previously mentioned if the aliens have enough res that after they onos they can go again in 5-10 min then sorry but the marines deserve to lose.
They have not held enough res points or atleast prevented aliens from holding, most likely they have simply turtled a base and not pushed.
Most game I have seen lost from either side are due to poor expansion and lack of res towers.
If you want to stop an opponent being able to go onos/fade/lerk over and over...then you will need to stop the flow of res at the source (take out the res towers).
Same thing goes the other way, want to see fewer shot gunning marines whizzing about in jp's? then simply dont allow them to have many res towers.
Res towers are the key to the game, it amazes me that people overlook them. No point running past an extractor or tower as its allowing your opponent to get some precious res. Stop take it out, force them to focus on trying to hold a couple of res points rather than expand.
You can take it out and slow down their uptake of res. Running around shooting/biting marines/aliens is fun...but not very strategic or beneficial for your team unless someone else is restricting their res flow.
I love how people are saying "BUT MARINES"
"BUT EXOSUITS"
But if it is in, it should work both ways.
ALSO COMMANDERS Shouldnt be able to get more than 50 res, it will start trickling out to other players after thus.
Dont ask me about shotgunners or jetpackers, i can never remember those res numbers till it shoves me in the face.
better do it then rite
Marines = Endgame
Shotgun upgrade = TRes 25
Shotgun weapon = PRes 20
Jetpack upgrade = TRes 80
Jetpack for rines = PRes 10
Full Marine Upgrades = 200 TRES
Marine Endgame cost (all together) = 335 T/PRes
Aliens
Carpace = 30 TRes
Regen = 30 TRes
Onos = 75 PRes
Alien Endgame (all together) = T/PRes 135
Even if I am a little off that is still close to what the actual numbers are.
<!--quoteo(post=1938809:date=May 24 2012, 10:21 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ May 24 2012, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1938809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydra's don't do piss against a3 Marines. And skulks are a joke against a Marine with a3, w3 and a shotgun.
It's still a nerf.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd been silent on the subject for a while because I honestly didn't think it would get so much traction. I guess that says something about the need for balance. That being said, I don't believe this solution is it. I've played in more than one game where despite all of the advanced lifeforms, and domination of a map, a room of marines and turrets has kept a dozen aliens at bay for 15 or 20 minutes. If this were implemented, after that first alien push fails, the marines would be able to reclaim half the map as 'waves' of skulks feebly attempt to push back waves of marines and arcs.
Additionally, I'll say that this solution would be horrible for people learning the game. New players who haven't mastered hit-and-run tactics will, run in, die, and effectively be unable to explore different classes. Not to mention the frustrations players would feel when they die at no fault of their own (i.e. latency/frame-rate drops).
I appreciate the ingenuity of the idea, but I honestly think this solution highly favors marines--beyond the point of calling it balance. I think overall, more of the features need to be implemented into the game before we start putting too much attention on balance. I would hate for UnknownWorlds to invest time in this solution only to have to spend time managing it every time a new chamber or upgrade is implemented into the game.