Hydras
countbasie
Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Need to be adjusted?</div>I played gorge a lot the last builds (since my performance is not good).
I found, that it is really fun with the new system. You can build up a small base wherever it is needed.
Problem: it isn't really useful at all, because it's too weak. In NS1 one OC would make it one marine impossible to get by, when well placed. With a gorge hiding behind it maybe even 2 vanilla marines could have trouble. With 2 OCs I locked down whole corridors in NS1, the marines really needed to play as a team to get through that.
Now in NS2 I place 3 Hydras at the end of a corridor, so the marines are shot a lot before reaching the Hydras. But what happens? One marine (maybe weapon1 or 2) kills one Hydra after the other, <i>while I am healing</i>. I could do nothing about it and my Hydras didn't even seem to damage him that hard.
So healing is too slow and Hydras are too weak. 3rd problem: I cannot hide behind the Hydras. It was essential in NS1 for the gorge to hide behind his chambers. I'd say the most important factor for him to keep his stuff up while surviving at the same time. The clogs don't make up for that just because we need an upgraded hive for those.
Right now Gorges and Hydras are easy victims while they are really fun to use and play. (BtW does anyone experience almost insta-deaths by LMGs, too?)
EDIT: Forgot something. So because we can't hide behind them anymore, one of the most fun parts is lost: agressive gorging. It was always a risk, but possible, to solo lockdown a corridor. Now it's not even worth trying.
Hydras work well being placed between eggs and structures at the hive, so marines get some damage when trying to rush. But seriously, that makes the Gorge a basecamper.
I found, that it is really fun with the new system. You can build up a small base wherever it is needed.
Problem: it isn't really useful at all, because it's too weak. In NS1 one OC would make it one marine impossible to get by, when well placed. With a gorge hiding behind it maybe even 2 vanilla marines could have trouble. With 2 OCs I locked down whole corridors in NS1, the marines really needed to play as a team to get through that.
Now in NS2 I place 3 Hydras at the end of a corridor, so the marines are shot a lot before reaching the Hydras. But what happens? One marine (maybe weapon1 or 2) kills one Hydra after the other, <i>while I am healing</i>. I could do nothing about it and my Hydras didn't even seem to damage him that hard.
So healing is too slow and Hydras are too weak. 3rd problem: I cannot hide behind the Hydras. It was essential in NS1 for the gorge to hide behind his chambers. I'd say the most important factor for him to keep his stuff up while surviving at the same time. The clogs don't make up for that just because we need an upgraded hive for those.
Right now Gorges and Hydras are easy victims while they are really fun to use and play. (BtW does anyone experience almost insta-deaths by LMGs, too?)
EDIT: Forgot something. So because we can't hide behind them anymore, one of the most fun parts is lost: agressive gorging. It was always a risk, but possible, to solo lockdown a corridor. Now it's not even worth trying.
Hydras work well being placed between eggs and structures at the hive, so marines get some damage when trying to rush. But seriously, that makes the Gorge a basecamper.
Comments
They are not really permanent, I'd call them mobile. Every Gorge only places 3. They have to be of some use....right now you can just overrun gorges. Every class should be able to defend itself, shoudn't it?
Edit: Btw, when they cost res, they where just as easy to kill (mainly because of the gorge hide problem). I thought that's why they became free?
But I agree with some of your points, like not being able to hide behind them.
When the commander and two gorges decide to lock down, let's say, repair room, then we have 6 hydras and some crags for support. It would actually be pretty strong. But you have to organize that....it's hard to do on public servers. Maybe the main problem is balancing pub vs. competitive...well dunno Im just glad that the Gorge feels like a Gorge again and hope we get it to play the best.
It helps compensate and makes the gorge at least able to hold a position. I still get marines rushing in to try and knife me sometimes though.
Only permanent if you stay gorge.
Who on Marines wouldn't want Aliens to say perma gorge for a few worthless structures that are easily ignorable. Hydras are not even worth it being "free" as it is.
It's like taking all weapons besides an alt-fire pistol (with lower damage) on a Marine and have him running around building things- effectively taking someone out of play.
Granted, this is now. But now that gorges are getting bile bomb back (about damn time), it wont hinder the team to have a gorge.
OC's were much more powerful in NS1 because of the trade off between getting chambers/ res nodes. Now they are free to the gorge, meaning they should be weaker. And the difference here is, if you lose 1 or 2 hydras by a push with marines, as long as it buys you enough time for allies to come to your rescue you can put the hydras straight back up again. If the commander has enough res to throw down a crag and whip, it is very difficult to take down a stronghold without the help of an arc.
I am sick of people complaining about how underpowered things are when they clearly had no idea what they are doing.
Who on Marines wouldn't want Aliens to say perma gorge for a few worthless structures that are easily ignorable. Hydras are not even worth it being "free" as it is.
It's like taking all weapons besides an alt-fire pistol (with lower damage) on a Marine and have him running around building things- effectively taking someone out of play.
Granted, this is now. But now that gorges are getting bile bomb back (about damn time), it wont hinder the team to have a gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like you're highlighting some of those balance headaches!
Agreed. And free buildings have to go! This is a resource based game that is even half-RTS ffs!
It may sound good and work good in TF2, but that's a VERY different game.
edit:
Suggestion:
Keep the current hydras, BUT add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res!
OC's were much more powerful in NS1 because of the trade off between getting chambers/ res nodes. Now they are free to the gorge, meaning they should be weaker. And the difference here is, if you lose 1 or 2 hydras by a push with marines, as long as it buys you enough time for allies to come to your rescue you can put the hydras straight back up again. If the commander has enough res to throw down a crag and whip, it is very difficult to take down a stronghold without the help of an arc.
I am sick of people complaining about how underpowered things are when they clearly had no idea what they are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I walked straight past 3 cloaked hydras sitting on the ground next to each other. Literally right through them.
You speak as if there is this "special place" to plop down a hyrda, except there isn't since you can't attach the hydras to a Marines back.
The only way to make hydras worth going gorge for is to give them a 4th (or even 5th) head after they've fully matured. That way they can finally be a decent defensive structure if used for that purpose and a weak offensive structure when used to push a front line as it needs time to mature. If the Marines allow the hydras to fully mature at the front lines, then that is their fault.
You speak as if there is this "special place" to plop down a hyrda, except there isn't since you can't attach the hydras to a Marines back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great, you walked past 3 hydras. How much health do you have now? Enough for a skulk to one bite you? You seriously can't believe that there aren't good and bad places to put hydras? I guess you are kind of right that there are no 'bad' places because you can always just pop the dead hydra back up again *sigh*.
It really makes my head spin when i hear people talking about how 'underpowered' hydra's are. <b>Free</b> hydra's are a huge balance problem which is much more readily apparant with 2 or more gorges slowly pushing hydra's to lock marines in base. The only timely answer is grenade launchers which is countered by a whip, and an ARC this early in the game sets marines back big time.
But then again not all situations are like that, only if you know the hydra bunch is around that corner etc...
But yes I'm still undecided on the hydra situation :| I'm sure the dev's will keep at it with tweaks and so on.
These current hydras are weak as piss, generally takes a silly marine rushing in to get killed by them (been there done it plenty).
I have also seen marines run past 3 or 4 hydras, a JP'ing marine doesn't even flinch just flies straight past and attacks the hive.
Let gorges build a hydra that costs a fair whack but that unlike the free ones is useful once marines get armour 1 and weapons 2.
This will allow gorges to do what they did best, build a small pocket of resistance even late in the game that marines cant just waltz past (actually need to stop and take out before they can proceed...currently they can just as easily leave the hydras there as they do so little damage).
By making a hydra on steroids able to be purchased you will give the aliens another Pres sink to help address the influx of the higher lifeforms (people will spend 15 res and delay their fade/onos if the purchase helps the team in a noticable way.
I am sick of people complaining about how underpowered things are when they clearly had no idea what they are doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- I said in my 3rd post, that actually it may be partwise a teamplay problem.
- when half the team watches one area, we don't need those weak hydras.
- tell me a good place, when you seem to know what to do. As I stated, the only good place is inside a hive location, hoping the marines will ignore them. (The best is in warehouse at top of the ladder, another good one is in the middle of DataCore). But then you only can use them when rines rush a hive. There are no places elsewhere, where the marines would not be able to kill one hydra after another in a little amount of time. Actually not <i>marines</i> kill it, <i>one</i> marine is able to do it <i>while a gorge is healing</i>.
Right now the Gorge has either full support of the commander and the team (and then he may as well just heal the team, because it's there, instead of dropping hydras) or he is a basecamper.
Just saying that the Gorge was always a weak class with surprising strong abilities when used smart. Right now there is no way to be strong, how smart you may be.
I don't complain or something, I just stated how the Gorge plays now.
If anything its actually easier to balance now, as you aren't attempting to guess what effectiveness to give something that could be spammed from one to forty times on the map, permanently. Instead its always a set amount now, which is obviously<b> far easier to balance </b>for as you can account for the dependable frequency. I think a great example of this misunderstanding is the disagreement and variance in this thread. Still, to those concerned, this subject is still being heavily worked on, currently, so just standby.
No this isn't an obvious mechanic.
I think if I had to point to an idea I support - I would say add +2 hydras when augmentation is researched. 3 is a bit overpowered at beginning of game, but by mid to end game its laughable.
<!--quoteo(post=1939412:date=May 27 2012, 07:30 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 27 2012, 07:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. And free buildings have to go! This is a resource based game that is even half-RTS ffs!
It may sound good and work good in TF2, but that's a VERY different game.
edit:
Suggestion:
Keep the current hydras, BUT add a second type of hydra that IS strong and DOES cost res!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I've just accepted that the gorge isn't the RTS side of NS anymore, thats the commander. It does kill the long-term value of staying gorge, but ultimately its more fun to play gorge for 10 minutes, go onos, then go back to gorge once you die to heal other peoples onos.
The vulnerability of gorge sniping is a problem, but I think it can be solved by tweaking gorge health/armor and belly slide to be more effective rather than making hydras into pseudo-walls.
If a gorge is using healing spray with carapace, you'll use at least an entire full clip of LMG to kill it assuming you have 100% accuracy. You will probably even have to reload. If the gorge dies after you reload, he deserves to die because he was either overextended or the marine severely out played him in positioning.
I don't see gorges die very often unless they screw up.
If a gorge is using healing spray with carapace, you'll use at least an entire full clip of LMG to kill it assuming you have 100% accuracy. You will probably even have to reload. If the gorge dies after you reload, he deserves to die because he was either overextended or the marine severely out played him in positioning.
I don't see gorges die very often unless they screw up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so much lately. I swear I used to die all the time a few builds ago though.
I've been wondering what all would break if Hydras&Clogs would get Gorge's passives long as Gorge that owns them is a) Gorge and b) alive.
So drop hydras with Carapace and they'll have extra armor, or Camouflage and they'll hide when not active, Silence to make them inaudible. etc. Clogs with damage reduction and extra armor? Now they might actually be useful for fortifications..
I've been wondering what all would break if Hydras&Clogs would get Gorge's passives long as Gorge that owns them is a) Gorge and b) alive.
So drop hydras with Carapace and they'll have extra armor, or Camouflage and they'll hide when not active, Silence to make them inaudible. etc. Clogs with damage reduction and extra armor? Now they might actually be useful for fortifications..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't even out heal one Marine attacking a hive. It literally takes a good 2-3 minutes to heal up a hive from single digit hp, whereas wielders are completely broken. They can out repair a com-stations faster than an Onos can do damage to it, and only takes seconds to repair a com station from single digits. Marine building/wielding is completely broken and bugged and needs to be looked at. I've built up a extractors in two seconds flat alone mind you.
I like your ideas about giving hydras upgrade bonuses from the parent.
This is worth a try, perhaps tier 2?