I don't truly understand where the myth of marines needing more teamwork than aliens has come. It has never been so in NS1 or L4D, and it will never be so in NS2 either because in melee vs. range games the melee side always needs more teamwork than the range side. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be teamwork for marines, but because melee side have get close to range side and order to get close you need sync your movement with teammates.
Here is some simple fact about NS1. In pure combat situation a vanilla marine would equal over two vanilla skulks, the very best marines could even take three equal skilled rushing skulks constantly. When first fades appeared that was only time when aliens had more “firepower†than marines and in late game one jphmg equaled two fades. You might ask how on earth 3.2. was balanced if marines where so overpowered in combat? Mobility, teamwork and the fact that marines had to attack order to win. Because aliens were so much faster than marines, they could make 6 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 2 situations, basically you never wanted attack marines with equal numbers (click Saunamen - Path of the Champions on my signature to know what I mean). I'm aware that in NS2 aliens don't have mobility advantage and it is one the major problems of NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1942554:date=Jun 10 2012, 03:28 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jun 10 2012, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't truly understand where the myth of marines needing more teamwork than aliens has come.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the marines need more teamwork than seems natural to the player.
Aliens have classes that synergise well with eachother. As long as you fulfill your class well, you will naturall team play.
Marines are all the same class, they must force themselves to stick together in groups to perform tasks. It feels less natural, but is just as important. There is always the natural inclination that you can do things alone, since other marines aren't contributing anything new (just more firepower).
<!--quoteo(post=1942554:date=Jun 10 2012, 10:28 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jun 10 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't truly understand where the myth of marines needing more teamwork than aliens has come. It has never been so in NS1 or L4D, and it will never be so in NS2 either because in melee vs. range games the melee side always needs more teamwork than the range side. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be teamwork for marines, but because melee side have get close to range side and order to get close you need sync your movement with teammates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is 100% correct. The reason marines need more teamwork right now is because the game is unbalanced and walking anywhere on your own for 2 seconds is a death sentence. People cry "use teamwork" on the marines but that won't fix a broken game. What ends up happing is all the marines sit in the base after the aliens have a few oni because they can't do anything else.
The way I look at it: Aliens have the faster movement so they can always choose when they attack. If they go into a room with 3 rines they can duck out and choose not to engage. Marines can't do this, so they need to be able to engage the enemy with a fair chance of winning. If they can't engage with a fair chance or run away then they can't do anything but die.
<!--quoteo(post=1942552:date=Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that marine teams will go entirely equiped with jetpacks means aliens must have a strong counter. 1v1 a lerk can usually take on a jetpack with its current bite, after they nerf it things will be dubious. Aliens need strong counters to jetpacks, even if its reserved for 2-3 of the 5 lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what is the counter right now? Skulks can't close effectively even with leap, Lerks are choppy to fly and spikes aren't accurate or deadly enough, same case with Gorge spit, and Fades can't blink and attack quickly enough, assuming the khammander has even researched blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1942552:date=Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree the onos should not be able to counter jetpacks though. They should be the siege class that requires support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, as long as <i>something</i> can counter jetpacks. Right now, knowing even the basics of how to exploit jetpacks = win.
As for elodea's comment:
<b>Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.</b>
A skilled jetpacker will never be subject to stomp, and you usually can't get away fast enough to even get to the corner.
<!--quoteo(post=1942520:date=Jun 9 2012, 10:31 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 9 2012, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been playing a few games recently where an Onos is completely useless against a single jetpacking marine. Stomp won't work because the marine just hits a quick burst of jet pack and he's not affected; the tusk attack range is very short, too short to engage, and the Onos just doesn't close the distance fast enough. To top it all off, when the Onos gets low on health, he can't even disengage, because the marine is so mobile.
When playing the marine, I really dig this because my survivability goes way up. When countering as an alien, it's pathetic. To my mind there are only a few balancing nerfs:
1. Stomp affects a cone as targetted by the crosshairs, so you can select a flying marine, or a walking marine, but not both. 2. Tusk attack distance is increased, and the time to make the attack is decreased. 3. Onos "run" secondary ability acts more like celerity - takes a while to engage, but doesn't impede your turning ability as current ability does.
Any of these chances might improve the late game performance of the Onos, but as I've said elsewhere, I'd rather wait until all of the remaining marine equipment / alien abilities are added to the game before talking about balance nerfs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos doesn't need any buffs. Decent jetpackers SHOULD be invulnerable to a single onos. Sort of like how an onos is invulnerable to a single non-jp marine. This also ignores the fact that onos can tank so much damage that the jetpacker will run out of ammo before he kills an onos.
Wow, you must be awful with the Onos. In my mind, it is perfect. The only thing spoiling it right now are issues with the stomp and that sometimes 7 appear at the end of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1942572:date=Jun 10 2012, 11:01 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 10 2012, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, you must be awful with the Onos. In my mind, it is perfect. The only thing spoiling it right now are issues with the stomp and that sometimes 7 appear at the end of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's quite possible. But when four of us Onos are all having trouble with jetpackers, I begin to think it's not just me. Then again I could just be facing up consistently against players like rantology... it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't when the player skills are so varied. I certainly don't claim to be anything more than an average player. I should stop chiming in on these threads when I've already said I think it's worth waiting until all the abilities and tech are added before talking about balance issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1942576:date=Jun 10 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 10 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's quite possible. But when four of us Onos are all having trouble with jetpackers, I begin to think it's not just me. Then again I could just be facing up consistently against players like rantology... it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't when the player skills are so varied. I certainly don't claim to be anything more than an average player. I should stop chiming in on these threads when I've already said I think it's worth waiting until all the abilities and tech are added before talking about balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anything you've said in this thread is inappropriate to say, even though I disagree with what you suggested for the onos. No onos, no matter how good they are, is good against a jetpacker because it's not their job to fight jetpacks. Sort of how fades aren't good at killing buildings and gorges aren't good at harassing RTs. If you have 4 onos and are having a problem with jetpackers, that's because you shouldn't have four onos. Kind of like a marine team who has 5 GLs and no shotguns/lmgs.
<!--quoteo(post=1942573:date=Jun 10 2012, 10:06 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jun 10 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->speaking of stomp, it <i><b>still</b></i> jams weapons...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah seriously this drives me nuts as a marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1942480:date=Jun 10 2012, 12:24 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 10 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I've suggested in other threads, the Fade should be: Slot1: Same blink model as NS1. Slot2: Shadowstep. Slot3: Something fun, that isn't another stupid disabling tool like the proposed vortex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slot3: Something blink/sneaky? Like maybe a BIG blink, that you have to plan ahead: Press <weapon3>, places a "beacon seed", invisible to marines (unless scanned), then at any point from anywhere on the map you can teleport back to this spot with <weapon3>? Would be fun, planting a seed at one end of a corridor, then watching from afar as marines roll in, then BIGBLINK -> you're behind them...
...then again another offensive ability would be neat. Ink-cloud trap? Hmmh.
<!--quoteo(post=1942592:date=Jun 10 2012, 02:02 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 10 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anything you've said in this thread is inappropriate to say, even though I disagree with what you suggested for the onos. No onos, no matter how good they are, is good against a jetpacker because it's not their job to fight jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which lifeform is good against jetpacks? Please advise.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2012
I'd like to see acid rockets make a return to at least do something towards an otherwise impossible situation. Like a group of fades using acid rockets against heavy siege encampments that whips can't go near. Or a fade softening up some marines to pick off someone in a group without exposing themselves for too long.
I don't think a lifeform should ever be exclusive to either melee or ranged playstyles. And currently the fade is the only class without the ability to affect marines from 5 feet away.
Also the 'waiting until they run out of jetpack energy' approach is not a fun gameplay mechanic. As they essentially are given temporary invincibility to most alien lifeforms, just look at ns1 onos vs jetpack combat.
I agree that they need something, but please no acid rocket. Didn't really enjoy this ability in NS1. With devour you had to at least risk something, with rockets you can just stay behind and spam
<!--quoteo(post=1942600:date=Jun 10 2012, 04:04 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jun 10 2012, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which lifeform is good against jetpacks? Please advise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None. That's why you've seen the top players repeatedly and consistently state that the cooldown on leap->bite and blink->swipe needs to be removed. Then you have it so aliens can use player skill (movement and aiming), as opposed to an automatic ability, on the two main infantry killers to combat jetpacks. It would be a battle of the jetpacker's skill against the skulk or fade's skill.
No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill. You may see a few people suggest things that might disable a jetpack or drain a jetpacks energy. None of this is skill. You're adding an ability which outright hard-counters a jetpack. If I have a jetpack and you have your anti-jetpack ability, you win. That just lowers the skillcap and results in shallow, a>b, b>c, c>a gameplay.
Adding a mid-air component to the onos' stomp is a perfect example of removing skill from all sides of the equation. It's simply onos > jetpack.
<!--quoteo(post=1942606:date=Jun 10 2012, 05:06 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 10 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None. That's why you've seen the top players repeatedly and consistently state that the cooldown on leap->bite and blink->swipe needs to be removed. Then you have it so aliens can use player skill (movement and aiming), as opposed to an automatic ability, on the two main infantry killers to combat jetpacks. It would be a battle of the jetpacker's skill against the skulk or fade's skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree with this suggestion (to remove the cooldown) but I don't think this will entirely even the playing field. In fact in the case of the fade, I think it will become the weapon of choice again (blink/attack/blink out) but I suppose that's the way it was intended to be used.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, and I see your point there. I will just say that as it stands right now, the skill component for the marine player probably won't be as high as the skill required to counter them with a fade or skulk player, especially if yonder marine has improved armor of any stripe.
<!--quoteo(post=1942536:date=Jun 9 2012, 10:23 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 9 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this a typo or are you saying that the solo marine should win both encounters? CQB should go aliens way, this is what being melee dominant means..they win CQB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ya you got me there, typod. but you got what i meant, cqb = alien on almost every facet of battle
<!--quoteo(post=1942604:date=Jun 10 2012, 02:21 PM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 10 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that they need something, but please no acid rocket. Didn't really enjoy this ability in NS1. With devour you had to at least risk something, with rockets you can just stay behind and spam<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
id like to see the return of webs, or some kind of lerk gassing secondary ability that clogs up or eats jp energy.
<!--quoteo(post=1942636:date=Jun 10 2012, 09:15 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 10 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->id like to see the return of webs, or some kind of lerk gassing secondary ability that clogs up or eats jp energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Webs can easily be countered by explosives/welders in NS1 conditions.
By the time Marines get Jetpacks (in most cases), they'll already have both an explosive and a welder, in addition to the flamethrower.
Removing the attack delay after a Blink is a more plausible solution right now.
It's so silly having to blink in the air like a timed cannon ball and hope the delay is over.
Then miss again.
Then have no energy whatsoever.
Then get shot up bad in the process.
Then cower back in cover (or towards the hive) to heal with already NO energy to blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1942634:date=Jun 11 2012, 01:12 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 11 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ya you got me there, typod. but you got what i meant, cqb = alien on almost every facet of battle
range = marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ;)thought so, just a lot of people seem to think 1v1 melee a v marine should be able to beat a v skulk so wanted to check. Really they let the skulk get close so they should lose in most of the cases.
If web makes a comeback (which I hope they do) I think it should not be destroyable by welders as it was in ns1 but only by flame thrower or going through it. If the jp'er wants to purchase a gl then there is a down side (they are limited against web) also adds another reason to actually have people choose the flamers, GL and shottie and encourage a diverse range of weapons on the marine side.
<!--quoteo(post=1942642:date=Jun 10 2012, 08:51 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jun 10 2012, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942642"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Webs can easily be countered by explosives/welders in NS1 conditions.
By the time Marines get Jetpacks (in most cases), they'll already have both an explosive and a welder, in addition to the flamethrower.
Removing the attack delay after a Blink is a more plausible solution right now.
It's so silly having to blink in the air like a timed cannon ball and hope the delay is over.
Then miss again.
Then have no energy whatsoever.
Then get shot up bad in the process.
Then cower back in cover (or towards the hive) to heal with already NO energy to blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea that was the problem with ns1 but fades had focus blink which they decided to remove for some reason. plus skulk leap is all but useless now.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1942511:date=Jun 9 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 9 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a better question would be: Why do we need to keep the delay at all. since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just answered your own question? lol Also, see my previous post in this thread. There is a solution which includes removing the delay after blink, but it would require a large delay in between swipes, or needing many more swipes to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1942606:date=Jun 10 2012, 02:06 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 10 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None. That's why you've seen the top players repeatedly and consistently state that the cooldown on leap->bite and blink->swipe needs to be removed. Then you have it so aliens can use player skill (movement and aiming), as opposed to an automatic ability, on the two main infantry killers to combat jetpacks. It would be a battle of the jetpacker's skill against the skulk or fade's skill. No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm having a real hard time understanding how the current setup requires LESS skill, considering the level of difficulty people seem to have pulling this tactic off?? Or am i misunderstanding you? Removing those delays will make it easier to kill JPers, right?...which means requiring less skill? :-/
Anyways, i believe, as you said before in this thread, roles should be encouraged, utilizing RPS mechanics so that Mass Tech isn't a valid tactic ever. Lerk should be the counter to JP, and imo it does a fine job at it, but definitely could be better - an idea i had was that Lerk bite could temporarily shut off the Jetpack so you hit the ground before it's active again, making you a fine target for team mates. Thus, I am not too concerned about making it so every combative class is able to counter JPs so easily.
But i do agree that the delay after leaping is just silly and unnecessary, given how its used / effectiveness of a skulk vs a marine who if able to buy a JP is typically well armed and can take quite a few bites anyways..
<!--quoteo(post=1942622:date=Jun 11 2012, 02:12 AM:name=Master Blaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Master Blaster @ Jun 11 2012, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"My team let the other team have enough resources and time to build 3 or 4 dozen ARC turrets, therefore game is broken"....wait, what?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> even on one rt theyll eventually have enough res to build n arcs. this "kill marines within x minutes or have your hives pop like bubbles" mechanic may be fun on siege maps but shouldnt be the default play.
<!--quoteo(post=1942674:date=Jun 11 2012, 05:17 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 11 2012, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->an idea i had was that Lerk bite could temporarily shut off the Jetpack so you hit the ground before it's active again, making you a fine target for team mates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please dont! No more of these gimmicky, heavy handed, negative based mechanics - hard counters should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Not to mention all the grief potential biting jp's around crevice once and watching them plunge to their death. Poison dot is enough given how hard it is to med jp's flying around. You fly around or you stop doing so to pick up meds on the ground. This is a soft counter that encourages players to take certain behaviors rather than forcing them.
I'm pretty sure Gorgeous is talking about less skill in the same meaning that replacing all marine weapons with blunt sticks lowers the skill ceiling in an absolute sense such that luck plays a bigger role. Killing jps with the swipe delay is clearly incredibly luck based.
Here is a post I made last year when the delay was introduced, somehow my advices were followed (although I'm not too sure how the current blink invulnerability works), but the delays were not removed, which defeats the whole idea :
Yeah, sorry Ironhorse but hard-counter mechanics like that just sound kind of awful. As GORGEeous said they turn the game into a glorified version of Rock Paper Scissors.. ATM killing JPs takes less skill than it would if the delay were removed because you can't really do it well at all. If it does take skill, it's not skill combating your enemy, but skill in combating the overly-controlling game mechanics which you have to fight just as hard as that JP.
I think if the delay were removed it wouldn't be all that bad. The primary problem with the fade was that it absolutely dominated before Armor 2 since it 2-shot everyone. Now that the Armor upgrades on the marines have been smoothed out, the "free swipe" wouldn't be such a big deal. I think the damage immunity from blink is a much bigger problem. Swiping is fine, but good fades almost never pay a price for taking a very risky swipe since it's so easy to hide around corners til' your energy bar is full and then go in and be invincible again.
<!--quoteo(post=1942674:date=Jun 11 2012, 03:17 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 11 2012, 03:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyways, i believe, as you said before in this thread, roles should be encouraged, utilizing RPS mechanics so that Mass Tech isn't a valid tactic ever. Lerk should be the counter to JP, and imo it does a fine job at it, but definitely could be better - an idea i had was that Lerk bite could temporarily shut off the Jetpack so you hit the ground before it's active again, making you a fine target for team mates. Thus, I am not too concerned about making it so every combative class is able to counter JPs so easily.
But i do agree that the delay after leaping is just silly and unnecessary, given how its used / effectiveness of a skulk vs a marine who if able to buy a JP is typically well armed and can take quite a few bites anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hard counters are bad. Jetpacks are vital to end game marine survivability and only need soft counters in which skill versus skill is the determining fators. Think skulk vs lmg, because that's what we should be aiming for. Now replace skulk with some-alien-tech and lmg with jetpack. Some-alien-tech can refer to various things, I suggest skulk leap and fade bite -- the two straight up combat oriented attacking classes. Lerk, to me, is more of a harassing // offensive support unit. I think this is reflected by lerk's abilities: 1) a DOT bite and 2) a trail of gas that obscures view. The spikes are sort of a middleman. They kill slower than other alien's attacks and are relatively inaccurate at distance, but still give some ranged on an otherwise melee dominated team. Again, a hybrid of sorts.
The problem we're discussing is that aliens have no real answer in their tech to combat jetpacks.
Now how do we get something where a good jp can defeat a relatively bad some-alien-tech AND a relatively good some-alien-tech can defeat a relatively bad jp. The solution, from a competitive point of view, absolutely does not stem from hard counters (a la lerk bite 'disabling jetpacks'). The best solution is a soft-counter approach where you give the main infantry fighting units (skulk and fade) the ability to defeat jps based on skill vs skill combat with as few negative controlling effects as possible.
Given that you are a play tester and it's important for UWE to get this right as jps define much of the end game combat; I really think you should reconsider the solutions we're presenting because they are truly the best option for a skill based dynamic in the end game. The more that UWE implements "a counters b, b counters c, c counters a" style mechanics then the less depth the game will have. Any concerns with potential fade imbalance can be adjusted rather easily by manipulating other variables -- such as the invulnerability mechanic, time in between fade swipes, energy and/or health. As a side note: I've always wished the time between fade swipes to be greatly increased to encourage more blink -> swipe attacks and punish fades for missing swipes.
Oops, yea i didnt mean to infer hard counters, guys. That example was just a fleeting thought, it obviously has downsides being that it would be highly frustrating to a JPer.
<i>There's a huge distinction between hard counters and RPS mechanics, though.</i> So lets not associate the two together. Just because the spy kills the heavy the best, doesn't mean anyone else can't, and it also doesnt mean the heavy cant kill the spy first. Thats sort of the mentality i was approaching with the lerk being the best JP counter, as i said others like leaping skulks and fade can still get em. (technically, everyone can kill them if they wait for them to hit the ground etc)
If fade becomes the best JP killer, due to the lerk being a better harrasser, then so be it. Currently though a marine is highly difficult to medpack at all while in air, so the poison mechanics work better than expected on them - without even mentioning the similarities in movement and the power of spikes!
I'm not sure what you mean by "real" answer? If you mean that every class should have equal access to Tech that is efficient at killing JPers. <b>then i highly disagree </b>as it nullifies the effectiveness of JPers. (can you imagine Onos being able to rip them out of the sky?) But if you mean "real answer" as in one class is better designed at taking them out than the rest, then well, like i said thats already occurring with the lerk. That doesnt mean its balanced by any means, yet, though. (we are not in the polish/balancing stage just yet) So please clarify if you dont mind.
I most definitely am considering the solutions you guys offer (no fade swipe delay) but once again like ive said it will have to come with adjustments, like requiring more swipes to kill and or longer delays in between swipes etc. No one likes to be damaged without a chance to counter it - its frustrating. So if we are going to allow it to happen you need to make it not as effective.
As for leap, i already agree.
That A counter B, B counters C, scenario you just said has less depth to it is exactly what you proposed a paragraph ago speaking about how a good JP can defeat a relatively bad alien and a relatively good alien can defeat a relatively bad jp??
The invulnerability mechanic on the fade is already severely nerfed - its fixed time, and you take damage for the first 1.7 seconds, and you have a cloud that follows you around showing where you are going, with loud blinking sounds. I.E, there is a very narrow window of actual effective invulnerability during combat. This new system would definitely complement the Surgical Striker role he is supposed to play if we increase that delay between swipes. (tho i'd want to hear him coming a little more, make it an event)
Bottom line: you need RPS mechanics to avoid Mass tech being the default winning solution for a coordinated team, and it also serves well for encouraging teamwork as well as dealing with certain strategies (like JPers) but this does not at all mean hard counters, it just means some are better than others at doing it. Any other suggestion besides leap and swipe delays?
Comments
Here is some simple fact about NS1. In pure combat situation a vanilla marine would equal over two vanilla skulks, the very best marines could even take three equal skilled rushing skulks constantly. When first fades appeared that was only time when aliens had more “firepower†than marines and in late game one jphmg equaled two fades. You might ask how on earth 3.2. was balanced if marines where so overpowered in combat? Mobility, teamwork and the fact that marines had to attack order to win. Because aliens were so much faster than marines, they could make 6 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 2 situations, basically you never wanted attack marines with equal numbers (click Saunamen - Path of the Champions on my signature to know what I mean). I'm aware that in NS2 aliens don't have mobility advantage and it is one the major problems of NS2.
I think the marines need more teamwork than seems natural to the player.
Aliens have classes that synergise well with eachother. As long as you fulfill your class well, you will naturall team play.
Marines are all the same class, they must force themselves to stick together in groups to perform tasks. It feels less natural, but is just as important. There is always the natural inclination that you can do things alone, since other marines aren't contributing anything new (just more firepower).
This is 100% correct. The reason marines need more teamwork right now is because the game is unbalanced and walking anywhere on your own for 2 seconds is a death sentence. People cry "use teamwork" on the marines but that won't fix a broken game. What ends up happing is all the marines sit in the base after the aliens have a few oni because they can't do anything else.
The way I look at it: Aliens have the faster movement so they can always choose when they attack. If they go into a room with 3 rines they can duck out and choose not to engage. Marines can't do this, so they need to be able to engage the enemy with a fair chance of winning. If they can't engage with a fair chance or run away then they can't do anything but die.
And what is the counter right now? Skulks can't close effectively even with leap, Lerks are choppy to fly and spikes aren't accurate or deadly enough, same case with Gorge spit, and Fades can't blink and attack quickly enough, assuming the khammander has even researched blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1942552:date=Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 10 2012, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree the onos should not be able to counter jetpacks though. They should be the siege class that requires support.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, as long as <i>something</i> can counter jetpacks. Right now, knowing even the basics of how to exploit jetpacks = win.
As for elodea's comment:
<b>Go around and corner to force chasing jp into your range or abuse pre-stomping.</b>
A skilled jetpacker will never be subject to stomp, and you usually can't get away fast enough to even get to the corner.
When playing the marine, I really dig this because my survivability goes way up. When countering as an alien, it's pathetic. To my mind there are only a few balancing nerfs:
1. Stomp affects a cone as targetted by the crosshairs, so you can select a flying marine, or a walking marine, but not both.
2. Tusk attack distance is increased, and the time to make the attack is decreased.
3. Onos "run" secondary ability acts more like celerity - takes a while to engage, but doesn't impede your turning ability as current ability does.
Any of these chances might improve the late game performance of the Onos, but as I've said elsewhere, I'd rather wait until all of the remaining marine equipment / alien abilities are added to the game before talking about balance nerfs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos doesn't need any buffs. Decent jetpackers SHOULD be invulnerable to a single onos. Sort of like how an onos is invulnerable to a single non-jp marine. This also ignores the fact that onos can tank so much damage that the jetpacker will run out of ammo before he kills an onos.
It's quite possible. But when four of us Onos are all having trouble with jetpackers, I begin to think it's not just me.
Then again I could just be facing up consistently against players like rantology... it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't when the player skills are so varied. I certainly don't claim to be anything more than an average player.
I should stop chiming in on these threads when I've already said I think it's worth waiting until all the abilities and tech are added before talking about balance issues.
Then again I could just be facing up consistently against players like rantology... it's hard to evaluate what works and what doesn't when the player skills are so varied. I certainly don't claim to be anything more than an average player.
I should stop chiming in on these threads when I've already said I think it's worth waiting until all the abilities and tech are added before talking about balance issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anything you've said in this thread is inappropriate to say, even though I disagree with what you suggested for the onos. No onos, no matter how good they are, is good against a jetpacker because it's not their job to fight jetpacks. Sort of how fades aren't good at killing buildings and gorges aren't good at harassing RTs. If you have 4 onos and are having a problem with jetpackers, that's because you shouldn't have four onos. Kind of like a marine team who has 5 GLs and no shotguns/lmgs.
Yeah seriously this drives me nuts as a marine.
Slot1: Same blink model as NS1.
Slot2: Shadowstep.
Slot3: Something fun, that isn't another stupid disabling tool like the proposed vortex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slot3: Something blink/sneaky? Like maybe a BIG blink, that you have to plan ahead: Press <weapon3>, places a "beacon seed", invisible to marines (unless scanned), then at any point from anywhere on the map you can teleport back to this spot with <weapon3>? Would be fun, planting a seed at one end of a corridor, then watching from afar as marines roll in, then BIGBLINK -> you're behind them...
...then again another offensive ability would be neat. Ink-cloud trap? Hmmh.
Which lifeform is good against jetpacks? Please advise.
I don't think a lifeform should ever be exclusive to either melee or ranged playstyles. And currently the fade is the only class without the ability to affect marines from 5 feet away.
Also the 'waiting until they run out of jetpack energy' approach is not a fun gameplay mechanic. As they essentially are given temporary invincibility to most alien lifeforms, just look at ns1 onos vs jetpack combat.
None. That's why you've seen the top players repeatedly and consistently state that the cooldown on leap->bite and blink->swipe needs to be removed. Then you have it so aliens can use player skill (movement and aiming), as opposed to an automatic ability, on the two main infantry killers to combat jetpacks. It would be a battle of the jetpacker's skill against the skulk or fade's skill.
No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill. You may see a few people suggest things that might disable a jetpack or drain a jetpacks energy. None of this is skill. You're adding an ability which outright hard-counters a jetpack. If I have a jetpack and you have your anti-jetpack ability, you win. That just lowers the skillcap and results in shallow, a>b, b>c, c>a gameplay.
Adding a mid-air component to the onos' stomp is a perfect example of removing skill from all sides of the equation. It's simply onos > jetpack.
I'll agree with this suggestion (to remove the cooldown) but I don't think this will entirely even the playing field. In fact in the case of the fade, I think it will become the weapon of choice again (blink/attack/blink out) but I suppose that's the way it was intended to be used.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, and I see your point there. I will just say that as it stands right now, the skill component for the marine player probably won't be as high as the skill required to counter them with a fade or skulk player, especially if yonder marine has improved armor of any stripe.
and alien died because there wasnt anything to counter the arc`s
CQB should go aliens way, this is what being melee dominant means..they win CQB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya you got me there, typod. but you got what i meant, cqb = alien on almost every facet of battle
range = marine
id like to see the return of webs, or some kind of lerk gassing secondary ability that clogs up or eats jp energy.
Webs can easily be countered by explosives/welders in NS1 conditions.
By the time Marines get Jetpacks (in most cases), they'll already have both an explosive and a welder, in addition to the flamethrower.
Removing the attack delay after a Blink is a more plausible solution right now.
It's so silly having to blink in the air like a timed cannon ball and hope the delay is over.
Then miss again.
Then have no energy whatsoever.
Then get shot up bad in the process.
Then cower back in cover (or towards the hive) to heal with already NO energy to blink.
range = marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
;)thought so, just a lot of people seem to think 1v1 melee a v marine should be able to beat a v skulk so wanted to check.
Really they let the skulk get close so they should lose in most of the cases.
If web makes a comeback (which I hope they do) I think it should not be destroyable by welders as it was in ns1 but only by flame thrower or going through it.
If the jp'er wants to purchase a gl then there is a down side (they are limited against web) also adds another reason to actually have people choose the flamers, GL and shottie and encourage a diverse range of weapons on the marine side.
By the time Marines get Jetpacks (in most cases), they'll already have both an explosive and a welder, in addition to the flamethrower.
Removing the attack delay after a Blink is a more plausible solution right now.
It's so silly having to blink in the air like a timed cannon ball and hope the delay is over.
Then miss again.
Then have no energy whatsoever.
Then get shot up bad in the process.
Then cower back in cover (or towards the hive) to heal with already NO energy to blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea that was the problem with ns1 but fades had focus blink which they decided to remove for some reason. plus skulk leap is all but useless now.
since its to easy to blink next to a marine and get a instant swipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just answered your own question? lol
Also, see my previous post in this thread. There is a solution which includes removing the delay after blink, but it would require a large delay in between swipes, or needing many more swipes to kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1942606:date=Jun 10 2012, 02:06 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 10 2012, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->None. That's why you've seen the top players repeatedly and consistently state that the cooldown on leap->bite and blink->swipe needs to be removed. Then you have it so aliens can use player skill (movement and aiming), as opposed to an automatic ability, on the two main infantry killers to combat jetpacks. It would be a battle of the jetpacker's skill against the skulk or fade's skill.
No other suggestion does anything to make jetpack battles skill vs skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm having a real hard time understanding how the current setup requires LESS skill, considering the level of difficulty people seem to have pulling this tactic off?? Or am i misunderstanding you?
Removing those delays will make it easier to kill JPers, right?...which means requiring less skill? :-/
Anyways, i believe, as you said before in this thread, roles should be encouraged, utilizing RPS mechanics so that Mass Tech isn't a valid tactic ever. Lerk should be the counter to JP, and imo it does a fine job at it, but definitely could be better - an idea i had was that Lerk bite could temporarily shut off the Jetpack so you hit the ground before it's active again, making you a fine target for team mates.
Thus, I am not too concerned about making it so every combative class is able to counter JPs so easily.
But i do agree that the delay after leaping is just silly and unnecessary, given how its used / effectiveness of a skulk vs a marine who if able to buy a JP is typically well armed and can take quite a few bites anyways..
even on one rt theyll eventually have enough res to build n arcs. this "kill marines within x minutes or have your hives pop like bubbles" mechanic may be fun on siege maps but shouldnt be the default play.
Please dont! No more of these gimmicky, heavy handed, negative based mechanics - hard counters should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Not to mention all the grief potential biting jp's around crevice once and watching them plunge to their death. Poison dot is enough given how hard it is to med jp's flying around. You fly around or you stop doing so to pick up meds on the ground. This is a soft counter that encourages players to take certain behaviors rather than forcing them.
I'm pretty sure Gorgeous is talking about less skill in the same meaning that replacing all marine weapons with blunt sticks lowers the skill ceiling in an absolute sense such that luck plays a bigger role. Killing jps with the swipe delay is clearly incredibly luck based.
Here is a post I made last year when the delay was introduced, somehow my advices were followed (although I'm not too sure how the current blink invulnerability works), but the delays were not removed, which defeats the whole idea :
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114510" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=114510</a>
So, remove the delays, and if the fade is OP, remove more of the invulnerability. Easy.
I think if the delay were removed it wouldn't be all that bad. The primary problem with the fade was that it absolutely dominated before Armor 2 since it 2-shot everyone. Now that the Armor upgrades on the marines have been smoothed out, the "free swipe" wouldn't be such a big deal. I think the damage immunity from blink is a much bigger problem. Swiping is fine, but good fades almost never pay a price for taking a very risky swipe since it's so easy to hide around corners til' your energy bar is full and then go in and be invincible again.
Thus, I am not too concerned about making it so every combative class is able to counter JPs so easily.
But i do agree that the delay after leaping is just silly and unnecessary, given how its used / effectiveness of a skulk vs a marine who if able to buy a JP is typically well armed and can take quite a few bites anyways..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hard counters are bad. Jetpacks are vital to end game marine survivability and only need soft counters in which skill versus skill is the determining fators. Think skulk vs lmg, because that's what we should be aiming for. Now replace skulk with some-alien-tech and lmg with jetpack. Some-alien-tech can refer to various things, I suggest skulk leap and fade bite -- the two straight up combat oriented attacking classes. Lerk, to me, is more of a harassing // offensive support unit. I think this is reflected by lerk's abilities: 1) a DOT bite and 2) a trail of gas that obscures view. The spikes are sort of a middleman. They kill slower than other alien's attacks and are relatively inaccurate at distance, but still give some ranged on an otherwise melee dominated team. Again, a hybrid of sorts.
The problem we're discussing is that aliens have no real answer in their tech to combat jetpacks.
Now how do we get something where a good jp can defeat a relatively bad some-alien-tech AND a relatively good some-alien-tech can defeat a relatively bad jp. The solution, from a competitive point of view, absolutely does not stem from hard counters (a la lerk bite 'disabling jetpacks'). The best solution is a soft-counter approach where you give the main infantry fighting units (skulk and fade) the ability to defeat jps based on skill vs skill combat with as few negative controlling effects as possible.
Given that you are a play tester and it's important for UWE to get this right as jps define much of the end game combat; I really think you should reconsider the solutions we're presenting because they are truly the best option for a skill based dynamic in the end game. The more that UWE implements "a counters b, b counters c, c counters a" style mechanics then the less depth the game will have. Any concerns with potential fade imbalance can be adjusted rather easily by manipulating other variables -- such as the invulnerability mechanic, time in between fade swipes, energy and/or health. As a side note: I've always wished the time between fade swipes to be greatly increased to encourage more blink -> swipe attacks and punish fades for missing swipes.
Oops, yea i didnt mean to infer hard counters, guys. That example was just a fleeting thought, it obviously has downsides being that it would be highly frustrating to a JPer.
<i>There's a huge distinction between hard counters and RPS mechanics, though.</i>
So lets not associate the two together. Just because the spy kills the heavy the best, doesn't mean anyone else can't, and it also doesnt mean the heavy cant kill the spy first. Thats sort of the mentality i was approaching with the lerk being the best JP counter, as i said others like leaping skulks and fade can still get em. (technically, everyone can kill them if they wait for them to hit the ground etc)
If fade becomes the best JP killer, due to the lerk being a better harrasser, then so be it. Currently though a marine is highly difficult to medpack at all while in air, so the poison mechanics work better than expected on them - without even mentioning the similarities in movement and the power of spikes!
I'm not sure what you mean by "real" answer? If you mean that every class should have equal access to Tech that is efficient at killing JPers. <b>then i highly disagree </b>as it nullifies the effectiveness of JPers. (can you imagine Onos being able to rip them out of the sky?) But if you mean "real answer" as in one class is better designed at taking them out than the rest, then well, like i said thats already occurring with the lerk. That doesnt mean its balanced by any means, yet, though. (we are not in the polish/balancing stage just yet) So please clarify if you dont mind.
I most definitely am considering the solutions you guys offer (no fade swipe delay) but once again like ive said it will have to come with adjustments, like requiring more swipes to kill and or longer delays in between swipes etc. No one likes to be damaged without a chance to counter it - its frustrating. So if we are going to allow it to happen you need to make it not as effective.
As for leap, i already agree.
That A counter B, B counters C, scenario you just said has less depth to it is exactly what you proposed a paragraph ago speaking about how a good JP can defeat a relatively bad alien and a relatively good alien can defeat a relatively bad jp??
The invulnerability mechanic on the fade is already severely nerfed - its fixed time, and you take damage for the first 1.7 seconds, and you have a cloud that follows you around showing where you are going, with loud blinking sounds. I.E, there is a very narrow window of actual effective invulnerability during combat. This new system would definitely complement the Surgical Striker role he is supposed to play if we increase that delay between swipes. (tho i'd want to hear him coming a little more, make it an event)
Bottom line: you need RPS mechanics to avoid Mass tech being the default winning solution for a coordinated team, and it also serves well for encouraging teamwork as well as dealing with certain strategies (like JPers) but this does not at all mean hard counters, it just means some are better than others at doing it.
Any other suggestion besides leap and swipe delays?