I dunno how many hours you have in. But look at it this way when you have 2 hives, and some kills 1 cyst on the map you can replace it and then like another 10 in front of his eyes.
<!--quoteo(post=1942963:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:31 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 13 2012, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the last playtester-match (announced on twitter) Hugh confirmed that energy will be removed and only pRes and tRes is used by comms!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if I like that change. Energy was fine for things that just needed a soft cooldown. It's good that meds and ammo are going to cost resources again (hopefully not p-res), but in my opinion the solution should have been 'use energy where it makes sense' instead of 'don't use energy at all'. Well, let's see how it is actually implemented in the new build.
<!--quoteo(post=1943068:date=Jun 13 2012, 06:03 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 06:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does cyst not having a cost actually impact the balance of the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding right? Have you played the last 2-3 builds at all?
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1943068:date=Jun 13 2012, 02:03 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How am I wrong in saying that making cysts cost t-res will cripple aliens?
How does cyst not having a cost actually impact the balance of the game?
For aliens to build they need cysts to get them there, as such there has to be a level of spamabilitiy in cysts as otherwise it will cost 15 res to get to a res tower just to be able to build it.
This has the potential to cripple any alien advance. With the marine comm able to ping the entire map he can send his marines to take out cysts in particular areas and prevent the aliens expanding to get res towers or any map control at all. Mean while he could have 1 marine off building and locking down the rest of the map, aliens wont be able to lock down or try to hold the marines out of parts of the map as they will be too busy trying to keep cysts alive to save res. A cyst is a lot weaker than a Res tower, take out a cyst with 4 swipes of your axe...cut off connection...res tower will die over time. Any attempt to reconnect will cost more res and make any upgrades such as Leap, blink, stomp etc harder for the aliens to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts costing tres did not cripple balance in the previous builds. I think those were the most balanced and fun build for competitive play so far.
There does not need to be spammability at all because the ability to build cysts will be dependent on the alien economy. It's always a tradeoff to build cysts.
It certainly has the potential to cripple the alien advance if the marines play better than aliens and manage to take out the cysts. That's how it should be. The current gameplay with energy Cysts is totally ridiculous. The only way marines can do anything to slow down the cyst spam is to kill hives. If the aliens ever manage to have 2 hive up simultaneously they can consume the whole map in no time and drop more cysts than the marines can ever destroy making it impossible for marines to build extractors, pgs, etc.
Can you give me a video of you destroying a full hp cyst with 4 swipes of your axe without enabling cheats?
I actually wish they could be killed by couple of axe swipes.
<!--quoteo(post=1943064:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:53 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 13 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that Cyst currently add more visual effects to than game play value. It puts restrictions on alien play eg: you can't drop a forward shade anywhere. Less room for aggressive and creative play. Whether there are ways to improve on that is another story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed. removing cysts & making DI automatic would remove the gameplay aspects of DI entirely (which has been the direction anyway). Funny, when I first heard about DI, that's how I thought it would work. Just be cosmetic. But if you want clearing DI to be part of the game there has to be some gameplay linked to DI.
<!--quoteo(post=1943068:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:03 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For aliens to build they need cysts to get them there, as such there has to be a level of spamabilitiy in cysts as otherwise it will cost 15 res to get to a res tower just to be able to build it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AFAIK they doubled the res income and cost of everything to reduce the value of 1 res, so effectively cysts will be like 1/2 a tres in this build. You'd need to kill 20 cysts for it to equal 1 RT. It will be better to go for the RT in most cases. If the aliens are just letting marines kill many cysts then they deserve to be put a little behind. Of course the numbers will probably need to be fine tuned but it is better than having free cysts that you can spam everywhere with no thought or worry that they will get killed.
Infestation does have a gameplay element. It limits the rate that aliens can expand since they don't require a player to move around the map. The marines can expand quicker but they need players in that location to be able to build. The aliens can expand with the com while the rest of the team is attacking. Infestation limits that rate of expansion while also providing cool visual changes.
From a semantics point of view, cysts don't make any sense - if alien structures need infestation to be built, then how do cysts get built? How do they just "appear" in place? I know - nanites!
Aside from that, I quite like cysts. I think they're the alien equivalent of power nodes, and despite the asymmetrical push I like that the two sides have that dependency mechanic in common. However if they're the weak link in terms of performance - I think their presence should be strongly examined.
If the purpose of the cyst is to extend infestation, and infestation is what aliens use to build on - then I think they have a vital role. As well, the infestation can be upgraded to provide various abilities to players (healing bed, etc). I don't see what other mechanic can be used to extend infestation as you wouldn't put down major structures for the sole purpose of extending infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will be better to go for the RT in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1943082:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:41 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation limits that rate of expansion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, this is something that is easily accomplished through proper balancing of tres production from harvesters.
<!--quoteo(post=1943074:date=Jun 13 2012, 11:18 PM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Jun 13 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943074"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts costing tres did not cripple balance in the previous builds. I think those were the most balanced and fun build for competitive play so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THe most recent changes are things like onos coming in, the alien top ability thats whats made the more recent patches harder for marines as they are not fully kitted out (exo).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There does not need to be spammability at all because the ability to build cysts will be dependent on the alien economy. It's always a tradeoff to build cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue is that aliens have to advance and have to use cysts to do it, so every cyst is atlest 1 t res (which is a huge dent in the team economy (remember this wont delay early game fades/onos at all just leave the aliens with fewer things like cara, leap hives etc))
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It certainly has the potential to cripple the alien advance if the marines play better than aliens and manage to take out the cysts. That's how it should be. The current gameplay with energy Cysts is totally ridiculous. The only way marines can do anything to slow down the cyst spam is to kill hives. If the aliens ever manage to have 2 hive up simultaneously they can consume the whole map in no time and drop more cysts than the marines can ever destroy making it impossible for marines to build extractors, pgs, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The current game play issue of cysts could be solved with a simple cool down timer, which make more sense and still allows for aliens to be able to expand without it costing them for every meter of real estate between spawn and res nodes. Marines dont have to pay for this they get to simply build anywhere after simply turning on the power. Infestation does not make it impossible for marines to build, they must simply kill 1 or 2 cysts to get some clear floor space...delay of about 5-10 seconds. I see people try to shoot down cysts all the time going through a lot of ammo, axe takes about as much time as shooting does from my experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you give me a video of you destroying a full hp cyst with 4 swipes of your axe without enabling cheats?
I actually wish they could be killed by couple of axe swipes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay I have never really consciously counted and have made a statement without all the numbers I have gone and checked its 10-11 swings or about 5 seconds of game time, hardly a large amount of time....definately not something you could defend against losing as you dont have long enough to react.
Energy wasnt that bad, it was just poorly balanced, you make cyst and medpacks cost more and suddenly it becomes an interesting mechanics, alos you could make some building and research cost energy, and suddenly energy would be like a second team res based off the amount of tech points you own, acting like gas in sc2.
You leave yourself vulnerable each time you attack a cyst. And marines don't really have time to be delayed by cysts when pressuring, instead they should be going for priority targets such as rts and hives.
<!--quoteo(post=1943062:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:48 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 13 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you're keeping features for no other reason than to keep them, to the point where you're trying to invent a purpose for them, you're cluttering up the gameplay. Any feature that isn't in some way essential to gameplay, should be mercilessly cut out of the game.
The best way to create open, enjoyable gameplay is to cut everything to the bone. As counter-intuitive as that may seem, less really is more in this case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1943089:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:59 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current game play issue of cysts could be solved with a simple cool down timer, which make more sense and still allows for aliens to be able to expand without it costing them for every meter of real estate between spawn and res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would make it even worse imo. 1. If you, as alien comm, get attacked from 2 sides on your expansion you would be even more crippled because you can't react fast enough with rebuilding 2. if you don't have to expand at the moment you can still spam cysts for free with no drawback.
The changes sound great. Energy had to go. I also understand why everything goes to tRes now. It will give many more options to the com but will also be more difficult to balance. In any case, it sounds great and is worth a try but if it does not work, I would like to see abilities on pRes and upgrades and economy for tRes. Like:
<u>Marines pRes:</u> Med Ammo Scan Nanoshield Nanoconstruct ARCS Weapons
<u>Aliens pRes:</u> mist cysts drifters and any ability from the buildings
Oh and to all who miss energy before they have tried the new patch: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I really think it is worth a try. Also the com got pRes that may be used for Nano, Med and Ammo. You got so much more options with one res-pool less. Think of the SG-rush in NS1, where you had a tradeoff because it was costing tRes to start such an attack. Having more options on one or two res-pools (pRes, tRes) gets you suddenly much more tactical options and decisions to take.
Now you really have to decide if you tech or build economy. If the weapons the com can buy go to tRes, you even have the option to decide for pushing out an attack. The pRes of the com would only be used for support abilities. It's a much clearer design.
Energy was never such a good idea. It was difficult to look at. (You had to find and click every building to know how much energy it had left.) and as I said, it introduced a third res-pool that breaks down the options you have and the decisions you have to make.
Often there was the argument, that the energy was a way to implement a cooldown for abilities. But really, even C&C1 has a better and more intuitive cool-down system with just a gray scaled clock running on the button of the ability when the cooldown is active. This is much more intuitive than looking at numbers on different buildings that you all have to select one by one. If you want the possibility of more than one use before the cooldown kicks in, you can simply display a number on the ability button for the uses left.
The next argument was, that you could increase the number of uses from abilities by building more of the responsible buildings. But this is not contradicted by a normal cool-down. For example you could display a passive ability "button" on the obs that says in the tooltip "+3 max. available scans". Such unclickable "buttons" for passive abilities are already in on the alien side. On top of that you could even introduce upgrades, that increase the max. uses for single abilities. Make this upgrades indefinite and you have a late game res sink. Or how about an upgrade that reduce the duration of the cooldown slightly?
I simply can't see what a third res-pool adds to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 01:41 PM) Infestation limits that rate of expansion
I'm not sure this is a good thing, it the aliens want to overextend themselves and build too many rts in the beginning, why prevent them ?
Why not balancing the game around overextending being a risk that the opposite team can take advantage of ?
About the cysts, something that bother me is how much it disorganize marine groups in public games: you're pushing with some teammates to some location, and there is always someone stopping on the way to axe cysts, by the time you arrive to your objective the initial group completely dissolved. Too many targets.
<!--quoteo(post=1943097:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:32 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Jun 14 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would make it even worse imo. 1. If you, as alien comm, get attacked from 2 sides on your expansion you would be even more crippled because you can't react fast enough with rebuilding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Early in game neither side has much T-res....to have to use some of what little res is available will only delay the upgrades of skulks, so delay the arrival of leap, cara etc. So any half way thought out attack on cysts will have severe impacts on alien res and development...simply push into about 3rd cyst, kill it and then hold whilst other cysts die and kill any weak new cysts the khamm tries to lay (costing res each time).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. if you don't have to expand at the moment you can still spam cysts for free with no drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Define cyst spam for me as I am not sure what you mean? I have seen a lot of cysts laid in an area but could it not be solved by a room or area limit for cysts?
Aliens want cysts/infestation all over the map same way marines want powered nodes all over the map. Issue is its really easy with the power nodes (single point area) but they want something different for aliens..making aliens choose between expansion and tech seems flawed as the techs not that great (compared to the actual lifeforms) and both are needed to try to win.
<!--quoteo(post=1943116:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:20 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 13 2012, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure this is a good thing, it the aliens want to overextend themselves and build too many rts in the beginning, why prevent them ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really see it as overextending though. The aliens don't need any players to build their RTs or structures like the marines do. Instead they have infestation which means they can expand without the need for players on the ground but it's a bit slower.
If the aliens could just drop RTs all over the map via the com then it would be very difficult for the marines to kill them in time. The aliens could attack your base all at once while the com expands very fast also. Drifters could replace infestation but I don't really see them being a better mechanic. It's just a different way to do the same thing.
I also think it creates this cool asymmetry. The marines can expand fast and build anywhere but they need their players who are slower at moving. The aliens expansion is slower but their players are fast and can move around the map quickly.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1943089:date=Jun 13 2012, 02:59 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->THe most recent changes are things like onos coming in, the alien top ability thats whats made the more recent patches harder for marines as they are not fully kitted out (exo).
The issue is that aliens have to advance and have to use cysts to do it, so every cyst is atlest 1 t res (which is a huge dent in the team economy (remember this wont delay early game fades/onos at all just leave the aliens with fewer things like cara, leap hives etc))
The current game play issue of cysts could be solved with a simple cool down timer, which make more sense and still allows for aliens to be able to expand without it costing them for every meter of real estate between spawn and res nodes. Marines dont have to pay for this they get to simply build anywhere after simply turning on the power. Infestation does not make it impossible for marines to build, they must simply kill 1 or 2 cysts to get some clear floor space...delay of about 5-10 seconds. I see people try to shoot down cysts all the time going through a lot of ammo, axe takes about as much time as shooting does from my experience.
Okay I have never really consciously counted and have made a statement without all the numbers I have gone and checked its 10-11 swings or about 5 seconds of game time, hardly a large amount of time....definately not something you could defend against losing as you dont have long enough to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts costing tres won't delay much about anything by default, but gives marines a chance to fight against the alien economy and infestation. With energy the infestation is totally disconnected from the resources and marines will lose because of infestation denying their rts even though they reslocked aliens by killing all of their harvesters.
Cooldown wouldn't fix anything. It's essentially the same thing as energy. It separates infestation from the economy of the game.
Simply killing one or two cysts? Are you kidding me? Simply killing one two cysts results the comm immediately dropping couple of cysts more. Just look at the play in 0:48:50 and 0:53:50 in this video <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228</a>
I think you should consciously think how long it takes to take a cyst down and how little investment it is for the aliens to replace the cyst with 2 or 3 new cysts. I'm sure you will see that cysts costing energy is a flawed mechanism.
I think cysts limiting alien's rate of expansion is a good thing and the primary reason of cysts themselves. Marines are more limited by speed and require players to build their structures. Aliens don't have those disadvantages and thus need to be limited somewhere else.
The cysts are also necessary for dynamic infestation and are necessary to allow marines to counter dynamic infestation (by killing the cysts). I don't know how you'd balance the bonuses given by cysts (re searchable upgrades, natural regen) if the DI was just free between hives and other buildings. The cysts also provide another avenue of attack. There is nothing wrong with giving teams more options to hurt their opponents.
Cysts should be neutral tres sinks for the aliens to get to their RTs, so the overall real cost of going from point a to point b and building a harvester is the same as it is in b209. The benefit of putting cysts on tres is that now marines can slow down alien tech by forcing aliens to spend more money on infrastructure. Similar to how destroying a forward armory or an observatory slows down marine tech by forcing them to rebuild them (if they want the benefit provided).
To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.
Whel not gonna chance much for my commanding here, I mostly prever to place down armory at locations rathely then spam ammo and medpacks, now that comm get faster resoursers gonna get easier for me :> faster expanding, faster upgrading. let the patch come.
my experiance people already die to fast to even put down medpacks, just rare cases someone survive because of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1943125:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:34 PM:name=-Azona-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jun 13 2012, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whel not gonna chance much for my commanding here, I mostly prever to place down armory at locations rathely then spam ammo and medpacks, now that comm get faster resoursers gonna get easier for me :> faster expanding, faster upgrading. let the patch come.
my experiance people already die to fast to even put down medpacks, just rare cases someone survive because of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cost of all buildings and upgrades will be increased as well. They can't double resource production and keep costs the same. Costs should be increased 50% - 100% as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1943121:date=Jun 13 2012, 11:57 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 13 2012, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think cysts limiting alien's rate of expansion is a good thing and the primary reason of cysts themselves. Marines are more limited by speed and require players to build their structures. Aliens don't have those disadvantages and thus need to be limited somewhere else.
The cysts are also necessary for dynamic infestation and are necessary to allow marines to counter dynamic infestation (by killing the cysts). I don't know how you'd balance the bonuses given by cysts (re searchable upgrades, natural regen) if the DI was just free between hives and other buildings. The cysts also provide another avenue of attack. There is nothing wrong with giving teams more options to hurt their opponents.
Cysts should be neutral tres sinks for the aliens to get to their RTs, so the overall real cost of going from point a to point b and building a harvester is the same as it is in b209. The benefit of putting cysts on tres is that now marines can slow down alien tech by forcing aliens to spend more money on infrastructure. Similar to how destroying a forward armory or an observatory slows down marine tech by forcing them to rebuild them (if they want the benefit provided).
To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think your summary would have been more correct by saying ,,Cysts are necessary in ns2 due to alien commander". Infestation exists because of the alien commander after all :). Having drifters as a builders would probably not been enough of a drawback with no building limit like ns1 gorge was. It would be like having extra players building stuff for you. If Cysts would only exist because of infestation it would be better to simply remove the infestation to create better gameplay, even though it would hurt the visuals a bit.
Infestation does not necessary have to be a bad thing if it is implemented correctly, but the fact is that it will always be a limit to creative play for the alien team. It must give something more to the game than just a limiting the alien expansion speed. ****************************** I think the most frustrating part of the infestation are the cysts. Not only do they spot marines around them(I'm guessing that will be fixed later) they also force the marines stop every 5 steps to kill them. When you are in the mid game there are already over 30 cysts on the map and it gets very boring having to constantly picking them off.
If breaking the chain would have bigger impact on the chain(like if all the cysts would die faster that are not connected) it would allow marines to go for key points in the cyst chain instead of stopping at every cyst. It would also give the alien commanders a reason to reenforce key ares of the chain to prevent it from being broken. This would also force the marines to choose between slower and saver way to push into the alien territory(since the aliens have advantage on the infestation) or go straight for the key locations.
<!--quoteo(post=1943119:date=Jun 14 2012, 02:34 AM:name=Zeikko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeikko @ Jun 14 2012, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts costing tres won't delay much about anything by default, but gives marines a chance to fight against the alien economy and infestation. With energy the infestation is totally disconnected from the resources and marines will lose because of infestation denying their rts even though they reslocked aliens by killing all of their harvesters.
Cooldown wouldn't fix anything. It's essentially the same thing as energy. It separates infestation from the economy of the game.
Simply killing one or two cysts? Are you kidding me? Simply killing one two cysts results the comm immediately dropping couple of cysts more. Just look at the play in 0:48:50 and 0:53:50 in this video <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228</a>
I think you should consciously think how long it takes to take a cyst down and how little investment it is for the aliens to replace the cyst with 2 or 3 new cysts. I'm sure you will see that cysts costing energy is a flawed mechanism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok your showing a point in teh game where all but 2 of the res nodes are owned by the alien team...making it linked to res is going to do nothing.
Having a cool down period would mean there has to be a delay between cysts being dropped, also a room or area limit could be explored. But the situation you have outlined would be reduced by a cool down period as there would not instantly be 3 more popping up as the period may be 5 seconds. Also every one you take down is atleast one less res the khamm can spend on researching or building (cant afford to lay down a res tower as spent res laying pathway to node).
On a slight tangent...wonder how much res it would take to lay down that number of cysts to cover that much of the map at 1 res per cyst...I am guessing ~200? Then add maybe 20% for damage marines do over the game so roughly 40 cysts. Thats excluding arcs damage later in game who can wipe out dozend of cysts in a single firing (but think of the costs of trying to fight back after an arc push).
Only way you could balance it would be to add a massive cost to repairing powernodes which would be great for gameplay (its going to need to be somewhat relative to the average number of cysts it would take aliens). I guess thats all we can really hope for, that there is also an added cost to repair powernodes to balance the cost for both sides.
<!--quoteo(post=1943131:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:45 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jun 13 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok your showing a point in teh game where all but 2 of the res nodes are owned by the alien team...making it linked to res is going to do nothing.
Having a cool down period would mean there has to be a delay between cysts being dropped, also a room or area limit could be explored. But the situation you have outlined would be reduced by a cool down period as there would not instantly be 3 more popping up as the period may be 5 seconds. Also every one you take down is atleast one less res the khamm can spend on researching or building (cant afford to lay down a res tower as spent res laying pathway to node).
On a slight tangent...wonder how much res it would take to lay down that number of cysts to cover that much of the map at 1 res per cyst...I am guessing ~200? Then add maybe 20% for damage marines do over the game so roughly 40 cysts. Thats excluding arcs damage later in game who can wipe out dozend of cysts in a single firing (but think of the costs of trying to fight back after an arc push).
Only way you could balance it would be to add a massive cost to repairing powernodes which would be great for gameplay (its going to need to be somewhat relative to the average number of cysts it would take aliens). I guess thats all we can really hope for, that there is also an added cost to repair powernodes to balance the cost for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think its a good idea to think about individual mechanics when thinking about balance, you need to think how everything works from beginning of the game til the end game. Cysts and powernodes don't have to be equal, the game could work fine even if one of the mechanics gave a major buff to the team while the other one was a major weakness.
The only time when aliens run out of hive energy is the current version is when the marine team completely overpowers the alien team and contains them. If the teams are close to equal you will have unlimited cysts which puts a timer on the marine team. The longer the game goes on more of the map gets infested and in the end you won't be able to drop any rts or any buildings in your base because of infestation. Killing the cysts are pointless because it does no real harm to the alien team. This is why cysts have to be connected to the economy. This will mean that the marines are damaging the alien economy when they are killing cysts. They can always limit the rate of infestation by picking out the resource towers. There will be balance issues at first but numbers can be tweaked in time.
The obvious problem I see with switching over to tres is that tres doesn't scale with player count. With more players a comm will need more ammo/medpacks , shield, construct, weapons, and mist. The reason it worked in NS1 is because it was a game tailored around 6v6. If NS2 is going to be tailored around a single player count, then its possible to balance this. If not, this is just going to bring on more balance headaches down the road.
<!--quoteo(post=1943130:date=Jun 13 2012, 09:43 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 13 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the most frustrating part of the infestation are the cysts. Not only do they spot marines around them(I'm guessing that will be fixed later)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct me if i´m wrong but wasnt this already taken out in (i think) 208 ? Infestation doesnt make you visible on the map anymore.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1943116:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:20 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 13 2012, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure this is a good thing, it the aliens want to overextend themselves and build too many rts in the beginning, why prevent them ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty much how the alpha builds worked (before infestation/requirement to build on infestation) and, to be fair, aliens did pretty much pound marines into the ground because of it. The only time marines didn't lose was because they employed sentry spam (before onos/bilebomb).
<!--quoteo(post=1943140:date=Jun 13 2012, 07:47 PM:name=XeiZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (XeiZ @ Jun 13 2012, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Correct me if i´m wrong but wasnt this already taken out in (i think) 208 ? Infestation doesnt make you visible on the map anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this was being "parasited" when on infestation and was taking out. He's talking about a different thing, which is a bug. The cysts give LOS, revealing marines. It's corrected (I think) in 210.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gameplay task Cysts give LOS has appeared with status Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's because cysts were acting like buildings (giving LOS), which they shouldn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1943130:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:43 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Jun 13 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the most frustrating part of the infestation are the cysts. Not only do they spot marines around them(I'm guessing that will be fixed later) they also force the marines stop every 5 steps to kill them. When you are in the mid game there are already over 30 cysts on the map and it gets very boring having to constantly picking them off.
If breaking the chain would have bigger impact on the chain(like if all the cysts would die faster that are not connected) it would allow marines to go for key points in the cyst chain instead of stopping at every cyst. It would also give the alien commanders a reason to reenforce key ares of the chain to prevent it from being broken. This would also force the marines to choose between slower and saver way to push into the alien territory(since the aliens have advantage on the infestation) or go straight for the key locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part shouldn't be in the game. I've always hated that cysts give vision and I think that's a bug that is being fixed.
I also agree that breaking long chains should give some kind of greater benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=1943137:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:23 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 13 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The obvious problem I see with switching over to tres is that tres doesn't scale with player count. With more players a comm will need more ammo/medpacks , shield, construct, weapons, and mist. The reason it worked in NS1 is because it was a game tailored around 6v6. If NS2 is going to be tailored around a single player count, then its possible to balance this. If not, this is just going to bring on more balance headaches down the road.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know people say NS2 is tailored to any player count, but it's impossible to precisely balance interacting game mechanics for multiple player counts. I think the closest NS2 could hope for is playable for 5v5 up to 10v10 and then competitive at something (probably 6v6 or 7v7). SC2 can't even do this (read: doesn't even try) and they have the best balance team in any a-symmetrical video game ever created.
I agree with GORGEous. I think trying to balance for multiple player counts is a mistake, especially in a ranged vs melee game. Even in completely symmetrical games that allow for 32v32 the game becomes a huge mess and plays completely differently from 6v6. I always thought it was sad that in many games it's hard to find a public match that is the "correct" player count. That was one of the cool things about L4D, you could always get a 4v4 game.
Comments
Not sure if I like that change. Energy was fine for things that just needed a soft cooldown. It's good that meds and ammo are going to cost resources again (hopefully not p-res), but in my opinion the solution should have been 'use energy where it makes sense' instead of 'don't use energy at all'. Well, let's see how it is actually implemented in the new build.
You're kidding right? Have you played the last 2-3 builds at all?
How does cyst not having a cost actually impact the balance of the game?
For aliens to build they need cysts to get them there, as such there has to be a level of spamabilitiy in cysts as otherwise it will cost 15 res to get to a res tower just to be able to build it.
This has the potential to cripple any alien advance.
With the marine comm able to ping the entire map he can send his marines to take out cysts in particular areas and prevent the aliens expanding to get res towers or any map control at all.
Mean while he could have 1 marine off building and locking down the rest of the map, aliens wont be able to lock down or try to hold the marines out of parts of the map as they will be too busy trying to keep cysts alive to save res.
A cyst is a lot weaker than a Res tower, take out a cyst with 4 swipes of your axe...cut off connection...res tower will die over time.
Any attempt to reconnect will cost more res and make any upgrades such as Leap, blink, stomp etc harder for the aliens to get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts costing tres did not cripple balance in the previous builds. I think those were the most balanced and fun build for competitive play so far.
There does not need to be spammability at all because the ability to build cysts will be dependent on the alien economy. It's always a tradeoff to build cysts.
It certainly has the potential to cripple the alien advance if the marines play better than aliens and manage to take out the cysts. That's how it should be. The current gameplay with energy Cysts is totally ridiculous. The only way marines can do anything to slow down the cyst spam is to kill hives. If the aliens ever manage to have 2 hive up simultaneously they can consume the whole map in no time and drop more cysts than the marines can ever destroy making it impossible for marines to build extractors, pgs, etc.
Can you give me a video of you destroying a full hp cyst with 4 swipes of your axe without enabling cheats?
I actually wish they could be killed by couple of axe swipes.
Whether there are ways to improve on that is another story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed. removing cysts & making DI automatic would remove the gameplay aspects of DI entirely (which has been the direction anyway). Funny, when I first heard about DI, that's how I thought it would work. Just be cosmetic. But if you want clearing DI to be part of the game there has to be some gameplay linked to DI.
AFAIK they doubled the res income and cost of everything to reduce the value of 1 res, so effectively cysts will be like 1/2 a tres in this build. You'd need to kill 20 cysts for it to equal 1 RT. It will be better to go for the RT in most cases. If the aliens are just letting marines kill many cysts then they deserve to be put a little behind. Of course the numbers will probably need to be fine tuned but it is better than having free cysts that you can spam everywhere with no thought or worry that they will get killed.
Infestation does have a gameplay element. It limits the rate that aliens can expand since they don't require a player to move around the map. The marines can expand quicker but they need players in that location to be able to build. The aliens can expand with the com while the rest of the team is attacking. Infestation limits that rate of expansion while also providing cool visual changes.
Aside from that, I quite like cysts. I think they're the alien equivalent of power nodes, and despite the asymmetrical push I like that the two sides have that dependency mechanic in common. However if they're the weak link in terms of performance - I think their presence should be strongly examined.
If the purpose of the cyst is to extend infestation, and infestation is what aliens use to build on - then I think they have a vital role. As well, the infestation can be upgraded to provide various abilities to players (healing bed, etc). I don't see what other mechanic can be used to extend infestation as you wouldn't put down major structures for the sole purpose of extending infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It will be better to go for the RT in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it always?
Again, this is something that is easily accomplished through proper balancing of tres production from harvesters.
THe most recent changes are things like onos coming in, the alien top ability thats whats made the more recent patches harder for marines as they are not fully kitted out (exo).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There does not need to be spammability at all because the ability to build cysts will be dependent on the alien economy. It's always a tradeoff to build cysts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is that aliens have to advance and have to use cysts to do it, so every cyst is atlest 1 t res (which is a huge dent in the team economy (remember this wont delay early game fades/onos at all just leave the aliens with fewer things like cara, leap hives etc))
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It certainly has the potential to cripple the alien advance if the marines play better than aliens and manage to take out the cysts. That's how it should be. The current gameplay with energy Cysts is totally ridiculous. The only way marines can do anything to slow down the cyst spam is to kill hives. If the aliens ever manage to have 2 hive up simultaneously they can consume the whole map in no time and drop more cysts than the marines can ever destroy making it impossible for marines to build extractors, pgs, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The current game play issue of cysts could be solved with a simple cool down timer, which make more sense and still allows for aliens to be able to expand without it costing them for every meter of real estate between spawn and res nodes.
Marines dont have to pay for this they get to simply build anywhere after simply turning on the power.
Infestation does not make it impossible for marines to build, they must simply kill 1 or 2 cysts to get some clear floor space...delay of about 5-10 seconds.
I see people try to shoot down cysts all the time going through a lot of ammo, axe takes about as much time as shooting does from my experience.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you give me a video of you destroying a full hp cyst with 4 swipes of your axe without enabling cheats?
I actually wish they could be killed by couple of axe swipes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay I have never really consciously counted and have made a statement without all the numbers
I have gone and checked its 10-11 swings or about 5 seconds of game time, hardly a large amount of time....definately not something you could defend against losing as you dont have long enough to react.
The best way to create open, enjoyable gameplay is to cut everything to the bone. As counter-intuitive as that may seem, less really is more in this case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you ever try NS1? I think you would enjoy it
That would make it even worse imo.
1. If you, as alien comm, get attacked from 2 sides on your expansion you would be even more crippled because you can't react fast enough with rebuilding
2. if you don't have to expand at the moment you can still spam cysts for free with no drawback.
<u>Marines pRes:</u>
Med
Ammo
Scan
Nanoshield
Nanoconstruct
ARCS
Weapons
<u>Aliens pRes:</u>
mist
cysts
drifters
and any ability from the buildings
Oh and to all who miss energy before they have tried the new patch:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I really think it is worth a try. Also the com got pRes that may be used for Nano, Med and Ammo. You got so much more options with one res-pool less. Think of the SG-rush in NS1, where you had a tradeoff because it was costing tRes to start such an attack. Having more options on one or two res-pools (pRes, tRes) gets you suddenly much more tactical options and decisions to take.
Now you really have to decide if you tech or build economy. If the weapons the com can buy go to tRes, you even have the option to decide for pushing out an attack. The pRes of the com would only be used for support abilities. It's a much clearer design.
Energy was never such a good idea. It was difficult to look at. (You had to find and click every building to know how much energy it had left.) and as I said, it introduced a third res-pool that breaks down the options you have and the decisions you have to make.
Often there was the argument, that the energy was a way to implement a cooldown for abilities. But really, even C&C1 has a better and more intuitive cool-down system with just a gray scaled clock running on the button of the ability when the cooldown is active. This is much more intuitive than looking at numbers on different buildings that you all have to select one by one. If you want the possibility of more than one use before the cooldown kicks in, you can simply display a number on the ability button for the uses left.
The next argument was, that you could increase the number of uses from abilities by building more of the responsible buildings. But this is not contradicted by a normal cool-down. For example you could display a passive ability "button" on the obs that says in the tooltip "+3 max. available scans". Such unclickable "buttons" for passive abilities are already in on the alien side. On top of that you could even introduce upgrades, that increase the max. uses for single abilities. Make this upgrades indefinite and you have a late game res sink. Or how about an upgrade that reduce the duration of the cooldown slightly?
I simply can't see what a third res-pool adds to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Infestation limits that rate of expansion
I'm not sure this is a good thing, it the aliens want to overextend themselves and build too many rts in the beginning, why prevent them ?
Why not balancing the game around overextending being a risk that the opposite team can take advantage of ?
About the cysts, something that bother me is how much it disorganize marine groups in public games: you're pushing with some teammates to some location, and there is always someone stopping on the way to axe cysts, by the time you arrive to your objective the initial group completely dissolved. Too many targets.
1. If you, as alien comm, get attacked from 2 sides on your expansion you would be even more crippled because you can't react fast enough with rebuilding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Early in game neither side has much T-res....to have to use some of what little res is available will only delay the upgrades of skulks, so delay the arrival of leap, cara etc.
So any half way thought out attack on cysts will have severe impacts on alien res and development...simply push into about 3rd cyst, kill it and then hold whilst other cysts die and kill any weak new cysts the khamm tries to lay (costing res each time).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. if you don't have to expand at the moment you can still spam cysts for free with no drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Define cyst spam for me as I am not sure what you mean?
I have seen a lot of cysts laid in an area but could it not be solved by a room or area limit for cysts?
Aliens want cysts/infestation all over the map same way marines want powered nodes all over the map.
Issue is its really easy with the power nodes (single point area) but they want something different for aliens..making aliens choose between expansion and tech seems flawed as the techs not that great (compared to the actual lifeforms) and both are needed to try to win.
I don't really see it as overextending though. The aliens don't need any players to build their RTs or structures like the marines do. Instead they have infestation which means they can expand without the need for players on the ground but it's a bit slower.
If the aliens could just drop RTs all over the map via the com then it would be very difficult for the marines to kill them in time. The aliens could attack your base all at once while the com expands very fast also. Drifters could replace infestation but I don't really see them being a better mechanic. It's just a different way to do the same thing.
I also think it creates this cool asymmetry. The marines can expand fast and build anywhere but they need their players who are slower at moving. The aliens expansion is slower but their players are fast and can move around the map quickly.
The issue is that aliens have to advance and have to use cysts to do it, so every cyst is atlest 1 t res (which is a huge dent in the team economy (remember this wont delay early game fades/onos at all just leave the aliens with fewer things like cara, leap hives etc))
The current game play issue of cysts could be solved with a simple cool down timer, which make more sense and still allows for aliens to be able to expand without it costing them for every meter of real estate between spawn and res nodes.
Marines dont have to pay for this they get to simply build anywhere after simply turning on the power.
Infestation does not make it impossible for marines to build, they must simply kill 1 or 2 cysts to get some clear floor space...delay of about 5-10 seconds.
I see people try to shoot down cysts all the time going through a lot of ammo, axe takes about as much time as shooting does from my experience.
Okay I have never really consciously counted and have made a statement without all the numbers
I have gone and checked its 10-11 swings or about 5 seconds of game time, hardly a large amount of time....definately not something you could defend against losing as you dont have long enough to react.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts costing tres won't delay much about anything by default, but gives marines a chance to fight against the alien economy and infestation. With energy the infestation is totally disconnected from the resources and marines will lose because of infestation denying their rts even though they reslocked aliens by killing all of their harvesters.
Cooldown wouldn't fix anything. It's essentially the same thing as energy. It separates infestation from the economy of the game.
Simply killing one or two cysts? Are you kidding me? Simply killing one two cysts results the comm immediately dropping couple of cysts more.
Just look at the play in 0:48:50 and 0:53:50 in this video <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228</a>
I think you should consciously think how long it takes to take a cyst down and how little investment it is for the aliens to replace the cyst with 2 or 3 new cysts. I'm sure you will see that cysts costing energy is a flawed mechanism.
The cysts are also necessary for dynamic infestation and are necessary to allow marines to counter dynamic infestation (by killing the cysts). I don't know how you'd balance the bonuses given by cysts (re searchable upgrades, natural regen) if the DI was just free between hives and other buildings. The cysts also provide another avenue of attack. There is nothing wrong with giving teams more options to hurt their opponents.
Cysts should be neutral tres sinks for the aliens to get to their RTs, so the overall real cost of going from point a to point b and building a harvester is the same as it is in b209. The benefit of putting cysts on tres is that now marines can slow down alien tech by forcing aliens to spend more money on infrastructure. Similar to how destroying a forward armory or an observatory slows down marine tech by forcing them to rebuild them (if they want the benefit provided).
To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.
my experiance people already die to fast to even put down medpacks, just rare cases someone survive because of them.
my experiance people already die to fast to even put down medpacks, just rare cases someone survive because of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The cost of all buildings and upgrades will be increased as well. They can't double resource production and keep costs the same. Costs should be increased 50% - 100% as well.
The cysts are also necessary for dynamic infestation and are necessary to allow marines to counter dynamic infestation (by killing the cysts). I don't know how you'd balance the bonuses given by cysts (re searchable upgrades, natural regen) if the DI was just free between hives and other buildings. The cysts also provide another avenue of attack. There is nothing wrong with giving teams more options to hurt their opponents.
Cysts should be neutral tres sinks for the aliens to get to their RTs, so the overall real cost of going from point a to point b and building a harvester is the same as it is in b209. The benefit of putting cysts on tres is that now marines can slow down alien tech by forcing aliens to spend more money on infrastructure. Similar to how destroying a forward armory or an observatory slows down marine tech by forcing them to rebuild them (if they want the benefit provided).
To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your summary would have been more correct by saying ,,Cysts are necessary in ns2 due to alien commander". Infestation exists because of the alien commander after all :). Having drifters as a builders would probably not been enough of a drawback with no building limit like ns1 gorge was. It would be like having extra players building stuff for you.
If Cysts would only exist because of infestation it would be better to simply remove the infestation to create better gameplay, even though it would hurt the visuals a bit.
Infestation does not necessary have to be a bad thing if it is implemented correctly, but the fact is that it will always be a limit to creative play for the alien team. It must give something more to the game than just a limiting the alien expansion speed.
******************************
I think the most frustrating part of the infestation are the cysts. Not only do they spot marines around them(I'm guessing that will be fixed later) they also force the marines stop every 5 steps to kill them. When you are in the mid game there are already over 30 cysts on the map and it gets very boring having to constantly picking them off.
If breaking the chain would have bigger impact on the chain(like if all the cysts would die faster that are not connected) it would allow marines to go for key points in the cyst chain instead of stopping at every cyst. It would also give the alien commanders a reason to reenforce key ares of the chain to prevent it from being broken.
This would also force the marines to choose between slower and saver way to push into the alien territory(since the aliens have advantage on the infestation) or go straight for the key locations.
Cooldown wouldn't fix anything. It's essentially the same thing as energy. It separates infestation from the economy of the game.
Simply killing one or two cysts? Are you kidding me? Simply killing one two cysts results the comm immediately dropping couple of cysts more.
Just look at the play in 0:48:50 and 0:53:50 in this video <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/320257228</a>
I think you should consciously think how long it takes to take a cyst down and how little investment it is for the aliens to replace the cyst with 2 or 3 new cysts. I'm sure you will see that cysts costing energy is a flawed mechanism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok your showing a point in teh game where all but 2 of the res nodes are owned by the alien team...making it linked to res is going to do nothing.
Having a cool down period would mean there has to be a delay between cysts being dropped, also a room or area limit could be explored.
But the situation you have outlined would be reduced by a cool down period as there would not instantly be 3 more popping up as the period may be 5 seconds.
Also every one you take down is atleast one less res the khamm can spend on researching or building (cant afford to lay down a res tower as spent res laying pathway to node).
On a slight tangent...wonder how much res it would take to lay down that number of cysts to cover that much of the map at 1 res per cyst...I am guessing ~200?
Then add maybe 20% for damage marines do over the game so roughly 40 cysts.
Thats excluding arcs damage later in game who can wipe out dozend of cysts in a single firing (but think of the costs of trying to fight back after an arc push).
Only way you could balance it would be to add a massive cost to repairing powernodes which would be great for gameplay (its going to need to be somewhat relative to the average number of cysts it would take aliens).
I guess thats all we can really hope for, that there is also an added cost to repair powernodes to balance the cost for both sides.
Having a cool down period would mean there has to be a delay between cysts being dropped, also a room or area limit could be explored.
But the situation you have outlined would be reduced by a cool down period as there would not instantly be 3 more popping up as the period may be 5 seconds.
Also every one you take down is atleast one less res the khamm can spend on researching or building (cant afford to lay down a res tower as spent res laying pathway to node).
On a slight tangent...wonder how much res it would take to lay down that number of cysts to cover that much of the map at 1 res per cyst...I am guessing ~200?
Then add maybe 20% for damage marines do over the game so roughly 40 cysts.
Thats excluding arcs damage later in game who can wipe out dozend of cysts in a single firing (but think of the costs of trying to fight back after an arc push).
Only way you could balance it would be to add a massive cost to repairing powernodes which would be great for gameplay (its going to need to be somewhat relative to the average number of cysts it would take aliens).
I guess thats all we can really hope for, that there is also an added cost to repair powernodes to balance the cost for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think its a good idea to think about individual mechanics when thinking about balance, you need to think how everything works from beginning of the game til the end game. Cysts and powernodes don't have to be equal, the game could work fine even if one of the mechanics gave a major buff to the team while the other one was a major weakness.
The only time when aliens run out of hive energy is the current version is when the marine team completely overpowers the alien team and contains them. If the teams are close to equal you will have unlimited cysts which puts a timer on the marine team. The longer the game goes on more of the map gets infested and in the end you won't be able to drop any rts or any buildings in your base because of infestation. Killing the cysts are pointless because it does no real harm to the alien team.
This is why cysts have to be connected to the economy. This will mean that the marines are damaging the alien economy when they are killing cysts. They can always limit the rate of infestation by picking out the resource towers.
There will be balance issues at first but numbers can be tweaked in time.
Correct me if i´m wrong but wasnt this already taken out in (i think) 208 ? Infestation doesnt make you visible on the map anymore.
This is pretty much how the alpha builds worked (before infestation/requirement to build on infestation) and, to be fair, aliens did pretty much pound marines into the ground because of it. The only time marines didn't lose was because they employed sentry spam (before onos/bilebomb).
Yes, this was being "parasited" when on infestation and was taking out. He's talking about a different thing, which is a bug. The cysts give LOS, revealing marines. It's corrected (I think) in 210.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gameplay task Cysts give LOS has appeared with status Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's because cysts were acting like buildings (giving LOS), which they shouldn't.
If breaking the chain would have bigger impact on the chain(like if all the cysts would die faster that are not connected) it would allow marines to go for key points in the cyst chain instead of stopping at every cyst. It would also give the alien commanders a reason to reenforce key ares of the chain to prevent it from being broken.
This would also force the marines to choose between slower and saver way to push into the alien territory(since the aliens have advantage on the infestation) or go straight for the key locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part shouldn't be in the game. I've always hated that cysts give vision and I think that's a bug that is being fixed.
I also agree that breaking long chains should give some kind of greater benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=1943137:date=Jun 13 2012, 01:23 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 13 2012, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The obvious problem I see with switching over to tres is that tres doesn't scale with player count. With more players a comm will need more ammo/medpacks , shield, construct, weapons, and mist. The reason it worked in NS1 is because it was a game tailored around 6v6. If NS2 is going to be tailored around a single player count, then its possible to balance this. If not, this is just going to bring on more balance headaches down the road.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know people say NS2 is tailored to any player count, but it's impossible to precisely balance interacting game mechanics for multiple player counts. I think the closest NS2 could hope for is playable for 5v5 up to 10v10 and then competitive at something (probably 6v6 or 7v7). SC2 can't even do this (read: doesn't even try) and they have the best balance team in any a-symmetrical video game ever created.