I do agree that the devs should focus on balancing a certain player count or narrower player count range, but still keeping an an eye on how larger pub matches are doing. Usually balancing for top 20% competitive environment trickles down well enough.
However I think that switching all this to tres is something that will be clearly broken in larger games....trivializing the effect these support abilities have on the game. Energy had its own problems, and I think getting away from that was a good move, but I don't think tres is the solution...not unless we are willing to just forsake larger games and focus on the smaller competitive format. I think there is a solution out there that can bridge the gap.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1943150:date=Jun 13 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was one of the cool things about L4D, you could always get a 4v4 game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but a 10v10 L4D match is a totally different and amazing experience that adds a lot of replayability to the game. Once you've mastered a 6v6 NS2 matchup, you could then go on to try working on 12v12 or even 16v16 and find it almost an entirely new game experience. I think NS2 would be lessened if balance wasn't considered for multiple playercounts.
<!--quoteo(post=1943018:date=Jun 13 2012, 12:55 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Jun 13 2012, 12:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything that was energy is now tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can't say I really like the idea of everything being tres. Somethings should be free, just with suitable cooldowns. Like scan, nanoshield, disorientate or umbra.
<!--quoteo(post=1943158:date=Jun 13 2012, 03:03 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 13 2012, 03:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, but a 10v10 L4D match is a totally different and amazing experience that adds a lot of replayability to the game. Once you've mastered a 6v6 NS2 matchup, you could then go on to try working on 12v12 or even 16v16 and find it almost an entirely new game experience. I think NS2 would be lessened if balance wasn't considered for multiple playercounts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even after 9 years ns1 players still had room for improvements. It doesn't matter if the game is played 1v1, 6v6 or 12v12, if its well made for competitive you will never be able to to completely master the game.
Also natural selection gameplay will be similar, just more chaotic with more players. Marines will simply gain more and more advantage when the player numbers are increased. It's because they are ranged and will have more room for kiting. So it won't really be a new experience :Þ.
<!--quoteo(post=1943027:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:09 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 13 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wasn't a problem in NS1, which didn't even have the tres/pres distinction. No reason to believe it will be a problem now.
I think your crystal ball might be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might make a few comms learn how to aim with meds/ammo for a change instead of dropping them on the other side of the room.
<!--quoteo(post=1943158:date=Jun 13 2012, 08:03 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 13 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943158"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, but a 10v10 L4D match is a totally different and amazing experience that adds a lot of replayability to the game. Once you've mastered a 6v6 NS2 matchup, you could then go on to try working on 12v12 or even 16v16 and find it almost an entirely new game experience. I think NS2 would be lessened if balance wasn't considered for multiple playercounts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those modes were more novelty than anything else. I'm not against mods like that, but it's nice to be able to play the vanilla game with a low player count.
I loved cysts on T.res, marines could actually slow alien expansion considerably, just by putting pressure, and the alien economy ALMOST felt right, i.e you actually had to make choices as a commander and were pressed on resources especially early on. A small t.res cost should be fine, it prevents commanders from just mindlessly spamming them, it makes for far bigger economy trade-offs (expansion vs tech) and for the marines too it actually makes killing cysts less of a chore (since there's less and you know killing them actually cripples alien economy)
The only tricky thing is balancing this out with marines, i.e both aliens and marines pay 10 T.res for extractors but aliens need a number of cysts in addition to this (making the cost larger while not giving any real benefit in terms of map control, marines have FREE power nodes) A solution could be having marines pay T.res to socket a powernode, evening out this imbalance. Alternatively you could just make the cyst abilities free, better, or relatively cheap, so that the t.res investment in cysts is not not only spent on pure 'map control'. (In the strict sense of the word, as a much more vulnerable counterpart to power nodes)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1943118:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the aliens could just drop RTs all over the map via the com then it would be very difficult for the marines to kill them in time. The aliens could attack your base all at once while the com expands very fast also.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was called an "RT rush" or "mass RT" strategy in NS1. It could potentially be very rewarding, but it was also so risky that it was only rarely used, as a novelty tactic or on a few select maps (ns_tanith notably). If the game has changed in a way that doesn't allow the marines to all-out attack alien RTs while still defending their base, or even building a new base if it comes to that, then that is something that needs to be addressed as it wasn't a problem in NS1.
Drifter speed would obviously need to be nerfed, along with making them visible and adding movement sounds and whatnot, to give the marines more ways to scout alien structure drops.
<!--quoteo(post=1943118:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drifters could replace infestation but I don't really see them being a better mechanic. It's just a different way to do the same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've already pointed out several reasons why it would be better earlier in this thread. Cysts create a lot of issues for no tangible benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=1943118:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens expansion is slower but their players are fast and can move around the map quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again; alien expansion rate can be controlled through adjusting the rate of tres harvesting from each harvester.
<!--quoteo(post=1943121:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:57 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 13 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cysts are only necessary if you believe that defender advantage bonuses have a place in the game. I vehemently disagree with that. Even NS1 was plagued by stalemate games and this would only help to further that. This has been discussed thoroughly in previous threads, so I'll leave it at that.
I'm going to repeat what I've said several times previously: KISS is essential to making an enjoyable game -- or, at least, what I would define as an enjoyable game.
In ns1 you needed gorges to build rts though, in ns2 you could literary have every player attacking (even the com) while your rts build on their own.
If you decrease the rate that aliens get tres in order to make the expansion rate the same as it is now, then losing 1 rt would be a huge blow, since it would take so long to get the res again and redrop it. The RTs would need more health to compensate and this would just lead to more boring play attacking buildings for longer. At least with cysts you can ignore them and only attack the key buildings.
I don't think that cysts are really a huge problem, and I don't think they are any more complex than drifters. I much prefer the idea of having infestation than an AI unit floating around building stuff. Fana, I think you are just looking for a way to make the game more like NS1 for the sake of it.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in ns2 you could literary have every player attacking (even the com) while your rts build on their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could, but I can't imagine it would ever be a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you decrease the rate that aliens get tres in order to make the expansion rate the same as it is now, then losing 1 rt would be a huge blow, since it would take so long to get the res again and redrop it. The RTs would need more health to compensate and this would just lead to more boring play attacking buildings for longer. At least with cysts you can ignore them and only attack the key buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering the miniscule impact killing one alien harvester currently has on the alien economy, I see this as a pro, not a con. I don't agree that such a change would necessitate an extreme buff of harvester health (but they do go down a bit too fast at the moment, leading to rush-y gameplay, regardless of how they are dropped).
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that cysts are really a huge problem, and I don't think they are any more complex than drifters. I much prefer the idea of having infestation than an AI unit floating around building stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've never said anything about the relative complexity of drifters and cysts. At least drifters open up the possibility of dropping other harvesters than just the ones closest to your starting hive every time (why even bother making it a choice when it's just illusory?).
Using drifters instead of cysts remove all the issues I have highlighted earlier in this thread without detracting anything from the gameplay (and potentially even adding to gameplay).
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana, I think you are just looking for a way to make the game more like NS1 for the sake of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You've got some saved up good will with me, so I'll let that one slide, but that is a really dumb accusation to be throwing around. You don't know anything about my motivations for posting my opinions on this forum, nor do you have any psychic powers that I am aware of.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1943125:date=Jun 13 2012, 06:34 PM:name=-Azona-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Azona- @ Jun 13 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my experiance people already die to fast to even put down medpacks, just rare cases someone survive because of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You need to practice your medpack drops then ;)
Comments
However I think that switching all this to tres is something that will be clearly broken in larger games....trivializing the effect these support abilities have on the game. Energy had its own problems, and I think getting away from that was a good move, but I don't think tres is the solution...not unless we are willing to just forsake larger games and focus on the smaller competitive format. I think there is a solution out there that can bridge the gap.
Yeah, but a 10v10 L4D match is a totally different and amazing experience that adds a lot of replayability to the game. Once you've mastered a 6v6 NS2 matchup, you could then go on to try working on 12v12 or even 16v16 and find it almost an entirely new game experience. I think NS2 would be lessened if balance wasn't considered for multiple playercounts.
Can't say I really like the idea of everything being tres. Somethings should be free, just with suitable cooldowns. Like scan, nanoshield, disorientate or umbra.
Even after 9 years ns1 players still had room for improvements. It doesn't matter if the game is played 1v1, 6v6 or 12v12, if its well made for competitive you will never be able to to completely master the game.
Also natural selection gameplay will be similar, just more chaotic with more players. Marines will simply gain more and more advantage when the player numbers are increased. It's because they are ranged and will have more room for kiting. So it won't really be a new experience :Þ.
I think your crystal ball might be broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
might make a few comms learn how to aim with meds/ammo for a change instead of dropping them on the other side of the room.
Those modes were more novelty than anything else. I'm not against mods like that, but it's nice to be able to play the vanilla game with a low player count.
TBH the other stuff is more interesting... tres mist, tres medpacks, tres beacon, tres nano ..
The only tricky thing is balancing this out with marines, i.e both aliens and marines pay 10 T.res for extractors but aliens need a number of cysts in addition to this (making the cost larger while not giving any real benefit in terms of map control, marines have FREE power nodes) A solution could be having marines pay T.res to socket a powernode, evening out this imbalance. Alternatively you could just make the cyst abilities free, better, or relatively cheap, so that the t.res investment in cysts is not not only spent on pure 'map control'. (In the strict sense of the word, as a much more vulnerable counterpart to power nodes)
This was called an "RT rush" or "mass RT" strategy in NS1. It could potentially be very rewarding, but it was also so risky that it was only rarely used, as a novelty tactic or on a few select maps (ns_tanith notably). If the game has changed in a way that doesn't allow the marines to all-out attack alien RTs while still defending their base, or even building a new base if it comes to that, then that is something that needs to be addressed as it wasn't a problem in NS1.
Drifter speed would obviously need to be nerfed, along with making them visible and adding movement sounds and whatnot, to give the marines more ways to scout alien structure drops.
<!--quoteo(post=1943118:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drifters could replace infestation but I don't really see them being a better mechanic. It's just a different way to do the same thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already pointed out several reasons why it would be better earlier in this thread. Cysts create a lot of issues for no tangible benefit.
<!--quoteo(post=1943118:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 13 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The aliens expansion is slower but their players are fast and can move around the map quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again; alien expansion rate can be controlled through adjusting the rate of tres harvesting from each harvester.
<!--quoteo(post=1943121:date=Jun 13 2012, 04:57 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 13 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To summarize: Cysts are necessary in NS2 due to DI, DI defender's advantage bonuses, and alien expansion rates. Cysts on tres is good for game play because it gives value (and therefore tradeoffs) to cysts that cannot be otherwise achieved by pres, energy, or cooldowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cysts are only necessary if you believe that defender advantage bonuses have a place in the game. I vehemently disagree with that. Even NS1 was plagued by stalemate games and this would only help to further that. This has been discussed thoroughly in previous threads, so I'll leave it at that.
I'm going to repeat what I've said several times previously: KISS is essential to making an enjoyable game -- or, at least, what I would define as an enjoyable game.
If you decrease the rate that aliens get tres in order to make the expansion rate the same as it is now, then losing 1 rt would be a huge blow, since it would take so long to get the res again and redrop it. The RTs would need more health to compensate and this would just lead to more boring play attacking buildings for longer. At least with cysts you can ignore them and only attack the key buildings.
I don't think that cysts are really a huge problem, and I don't think they are any more complex than drifters. I much prefer the idea of having infestation than an AI unit floating around building stuff. Fana, I think you are just looking for a way to make the game more like NS1 for the sake of it.
You could, but I can't imagine it would ever be a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you decrease the rate that aliens get tres in order to make the expansion rate the same as it is now, then losing 1 rt would be a huge blow, since it would take so long to get the res again and redrop it. The RTs would need more health to compensate and this would just lead to more boring play attacking buildings for longer. At least with cysts you can ignore them and only attack the key buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the miniscule impact killing one alien harvester currently has on the alien economy, I see this as a pro, not a con. I don't agree that such a change would necessitate an extreme buff of harvester health (but they do go down a bit too fast at the moment, leading to rush-y gameplay, regardless of how they are dropped).
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think that cysts are really a huge problem, and I don't think they are any more complex than drifters. I much prefer the idea of having infestation than an AI unit floating around building stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never said anything about the relative complexity of drifters and cysts. At least drifters open up the possibility of dropping other harvesters than just the ones closest to your starting hive every time (why even bother making it a choice when it's just illusory?).
Using drifters instead of cysts remove all the issues I have highlighted earlier in this thread without detracting anything from the gameplay (and potentially even adding to gameplay).
<!--quoteo(post=1943190:date=Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 14 2012, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1943190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana, I think you are just looking for a way to make the game more like NS1 for the sake of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've got some saved up good will with me, so I'll let that one slide, but that is a really dumb accusation to be throwing around. You don't know anything about my motivations for posting my opinions on this forum, nor do you have any psychic powers that I am aware of.
You need to practice your medpack drops then ;)