My current NS2 gripes
Angelusz
Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Opinions are very welcome, am I doing something wrong?</div>Howdy!
After having spent some hours having good fun with the new patch, I'd like to start of saying that I like it - a lot. Naturally it needs more polishing, but I love the recent changes. Makes the game more intuitive.
Alas, there's still a few things that bother me. I'll keep it concise.
1. Aliens (mostly skulks) die too fast lategame.
<i>I find that in the endgame, you basically skulk around, dying over and over, occasionally killing something (half by accident) until you've got enough resources to get into a proper lifeform. It's nigh impossible to catch jp's before they shoot you to shreads, mines always instakill you (very frustrating this one) and turrets are close to being a brick wall when placed right. Anyone else having similar problems? Mind you, I'm talking lategame.</i>
2. ARC SPAM.
<i>Oh god. I don't think I have to elaborate much on this one. We've all seen the trains. This is especially a big problem in small games (they're too tough to kill fast enough). My personal recommendation: Max 1 arc per marine. Cap it! If there's a 6 man team, 6 arcs is the absolute maximum the comm can build.</i>
3. Alien vision
<i>I have this weird relationship with alien vision where I both hate and love it. I love it because it's exactly what the aliens need to keep combat doable. Flinging yourself around the room all the time, you have little chance to spot marines without clear markers. I hate it because this means I basically always have it on. I feel like I'm nerfing myself by turning it off. Everything is so much clearer with alien vision. I'm pretty sure some topics exist on this matter.</i>
I'm sure I can come up with more things that can use attention, but after the games I've been doing, these things annoyed me most.
After having spent some hours having good fun with the new patch, I'd like to start of saying that I like it - a lot. Naturally it needs more polishing, but I love the recent changes. Makes the game more intuitive.
Alas, there's still a few things that bother me. I'll keep it concise.
1. Aliens (mostly skulks) die too fast lategame.
<i>I find that in the endgame, you basically skulk around, dying over and over, occasionally killing something (half by accident) until you've got enough resources to get into a proper lifeform. It's nigh impossible to catch jp's before they shoot you to shreads, mines always instakill you (very frustrating this one) and turrets are close to being a brick wall when placed right. Anyone else having similar problems? Mind you, I'm talking lategame.</i>
2. ARC SPAM.
<i>Oh god. I don't think I have to elaborate much on this one. We've all seen the trains. This is especially a big problem in small games (they're too tough to kill fast enough). My personal recommendation: Max 1 arc per marine. Cap it! If there's a 6 man team, 6 arcs is the absolute maximum the comm can build.</i>
3. Alien vision
<i>I have this weird relationship with alien vision where I both hate and love it. I love it because it's exactly what the aliens need to keep combat doable. Flinging yourself around the room all the time, you have little chance to spot marines without clear markers. I hate it because this means I basically always have it on. I feel like I'm nerfing myself by turning it off. Everything is so much clearer with alien vision. I'm pretty sure some topics exist on this matter.</i>
I'm sure I can come up with more things that can use attention, but after the games I've been doing, these things annoyed me most.
Comments
2) +1
These have been problems in nearly every single build pre 210 as well. Only amplified this build by low apm commanders finding excess res and dumping it into robotics tech.
<i>I find that in the endgame, you basically skulk around, dying over and over, occasionally killing something (half by accident) until you've got enough resources to get into a proper lifeform. It's nigh impossible to catch jp's before they shoot you to shreads, mines always instakill you (very frustrating this one) and turrets are close to being a brick wall when placed right. Anyone else having similar problems? Mind you, I'm talking lategame.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Late game skulking is very frustrating even with my skill levels with the skulk, some instances such as a group of marines(4+) in a large room with a turret can cause some difficulties and what seems to be an instant death even before you can right click to leap. :( The skulk could use some late game help in this department.
<!--quoteo(post=1944752:date=Jun 18 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jun 18 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. ARC SPAM.
<i>Oh god. I don't think I have to elaborate much on this one. We've all seen the trains. This is especially a big problem in small games (they're too tough to kill fast enough). My personal recommendation: Max 1 arc per marine. Cap it! If there's a 6 man team, 6 arcs is the absolute maximum the comm can build.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not agree with capping arcs, if the marines can afford 1mil arcs then let them have 1 mil arcs. I do however think that the arcs need more external support from the commander and more teamwork on the marines(Not nade spamming) part to make sure that the arcs are successful in their arcing capabilities
<!--quoteo(post=1944752:date=Jun 18 2012, 09:42 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jun 18 2012, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Alien vision
<i>I have this weird relationship with alien vision where I both hate and love it. I love it because it's exactly what the aliens need to keep combat doable. Flinging yourself around the room all the time, you have little chance to spot marines without clear markers. I hate it because this means I basically always have it on. I feel like I'm nerfing myself by turning it off. Everything is so much clearer with alien vision. I'm pretty sure some topics exist on this matter.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an alien I play with this turned on 98% of the time. I really like the new change to the alien vision because now I feel like I am getting more depth and get to experience the detail that the mappers spend a lot of time on.
As for alien vision, the opinions on this vary greatly from person to person. I personally never use it, as i dont find the benefit of it outweighs alien hive sight, and i also like to utilize shadows and spores effectively - which are impossible with alien vision.
Don't think that is a good idea, because ARCs are meant to be used on the offence to clear rooms. Now you'd have to clear the room and repair the power node before you can even use ARCs. Not to mention many rooms can be sieged from another power area anyway, where an increased range would make that even easier.
In my opinion the ARC problem is first and foremost a problem with abundant resources.
As for lategame in general, it's really messy atm, I seriously hope they find a way to scale aliens better into lategame, while not turning things into the spamfest that we see currently..
I figured it would be a case of Marines holding a frontline while some mates brought up the ARC to bring some artillery effect to the lines.
I didnt imagine being able to mass produce the things and send them en mass without escort :o
I propose that you limit the ARC to 1 per Robotic Factory ( I think thats what that building the ARC comes out of is called ) and say 2 MAC's , obviously if the ARC or a MAC is destroyed it opens up that slot to make another.
Now to offset the loss of the cumilative power of a ARC train, the single ARC should be at minimal 2 - 3 times more powerfull but only vs buildings. It should have its armor buffed again while traveling but retain its weakness when deployed.
Finally only allow 2 Robotic Factory's per CC ( ie technode)... so at most you could only deploy 2 ARCs ( and 4 MAC's) with the single base, but the 2 ARCs would have the power of 4 - 6 ARC's from the old trains.
This would reduce the effectiveness of the tactic of turtling in a single base with 1 or 2 resource nodes and pumping out ARC trains with MAC conga lines... if you are winning you can hold more technodes, thus create more ARC's which can be used to quickly overpower your enemy ... thus if you are winning it helps you win faster.
Which basically works the same as welding/building a structure. The commander still moves the arcs to the location and orders his marines to unfold them. Then, the commander can fold them back up like usual, so that ARCs won't be stuck on the map if no one folds them up. This still allows the commander to create ARC trains, but they're less effective due each one of them would have to be unfolded by the marines. Plus Aliens can prevent ARC attacks by just killing welding marines before they manage to unfold the ARCs. (and then start nomming the ARC train) It gives a bit more control in ARC situations to the aliens, while inciting more player interaction and teamwork for the marines with the ARCs.
<!--quoteo(post=1944759:date=Jun 19 2012, 07:32 AM:name=Raven_XI)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raven_XI @ Jun 19 2012, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you use alien vision all the time you are bad at NS2. You cannot see hive sight so you do not know what is around the next corner. I only turn it on during combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll let you in on a little secret Raven_XI... ;)
*\natural selection 2\ns2\lua\Alien_Client.lua
Row 458: <b>self.hiveBlips:SetIsVisible(<i>not self.darkVisionOn</i>)</b> --> <b>self.hiveBlips:SetIsVisible(<i>true</i>)</b>
Glad I could help!
"NS2 - The most modable game ever", truly!
Not only do I think that the marine deployment model is more fun, it also completely fixes the arc-train problem without arbitrary rules. Each arc has diminishing returns as they become increasingly unlikely to be deployed by the field players which makes for a great soft-cap that doesn't make trains entirely impossible. Rather, they simply become cost-ineffective. This method also respects the goal championed by UWE (and Hugh in the recent dreamhack Q&A) that the game should be primarily about player-player interaction. Currently, the commander can force NPC vs Player combat all too easily. With players "deploying" arcs, this problem disappears.
*edit* looks like my P.A., Jer9-Carver, got there first!
It's so obvious to see how bad they are. They can be built in some safe area, quickly moved into position, their movement looks weird, they are hard to counter, they can be spammed, they are hard to balance.
So there are many reasons not to have them in the game and no reason to have them in the game other than "hey let's have mobile siege turrets kind of like SC siege tanks. Wow that sounds like an amazing idea!" Sounds good at first but simply doesn't work. Get rid of them.
Crazy talk i know
It's so obvious to see how bad they are. They can be built in some safe area, quickly moved into position, their movement looks weird, they are hard to counter, they can be spammed, they are hard to balance.
So there are many reasons not to have them in the game and no reason to have them in the game other than "hey let's have mobile siege turrets kind of like SC siege tanks. Wow that sounds like an amazing idea!" Sounds good at first but simply doesn't work. Get rid of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arcs are fine. The problem is simple enough to understand. Currently base rushing marines is difficult because alien has crap range attacks. This was simple enough when lerk could spore at distance and fades had acid rockets. Now a good com can easily hold a few rts and spit out arcs. Now if the alien team is letting them set up instead of constant hitting the rush then its not a "game problem". Ive seen plenty of arc pushes stopped cold by good alien counter attacks. These posts are getting tiresome. A lot of the "problems" posted here are mainly bad strategy.
Maybe they are too big ?
That combined with some sort of way to address their spammability late game (lack of t.res sinks) should be more than enough to fix it.
That combined with some sort of way to address their spammability late game (lack of t.res sinks) should be more than enough to fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe im just nostalgic for ns1 mechanics, but i find forward robotics like adv tf sieges creates more tension, more fun, and is more intuitive to aliens under siege instead of randomly having a thousand ARCS of the persian empire descend upon you. Slower movement speed sounds like a good idea.
Nostalgia is fine if it's for something better. There isn't really anything I've experienced in NS2 so far that matches that desperate attempt to get the tf up, researched, and then build the sieges all while being hammered by everything the aliens can throw at you. Or trying to do it all _really quietly_ if they haven't realized you are there yet.
Ehh, Gorge already has it's bilebomb back. ^^
Edit: Ninjaed...
This simple change forces:
a) marines to accompany arcs and HOLD the area they are being deployed.
b) aliens to fight marines to deny arcs instead of having to spend 30 seconds killing each arc. With many arcs, 30s per arc means your hive dies before you kill the arcs.
Crazy talk i know<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arcs are fine. The problem is simple enough to understand. Currently base rushing marines is difficult because alien has crap range attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Marines turtling in base didn't last so long when you could gas the armory and rocket the turrets.