Immersion feedback and ideas
Moody
Join Date: 2010-07-18 Member: 72528Members
Join Date: 2010-07-18 Member: 72528Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Feedback and thoughts on something the game lacks enough of atm</div>NS2 is shaping up to be an awesome game, but with the closer planned release timeframe coming, I'm starting to have a few concerns. My concerns aren't about performance or gameplay, that will just take time and testing to iron out. My concern is for the lack of attention that immersion has been getting.
<b>The Problem:</b>
Currently in NS2, I rarely get the feeling of being very drawn in and immersed into the world. The game is fun, intense, and strategic, but I can't say it's immersive yet. I trust that the team is working on new features, but I thought I would give some feedback and criticism, and maybe throw in some useful ideas, because I do realize that it's still just a beta. So if a Dev is reading this, here's my feedback:
<i>Criticism and Feedback:</i>
<ul><li> While the lighting is good at this point, it lacks in some ways. Fully infested rooms remain brightly lit, and the red emergency lighting looks kinda ugly in my opinion. </li><li> Ambient sounds either don't exist, or are so soft I never notice them.</li><li> The Marine HUD is very well designed, but something feels amiss about it, and I always feel apart from the character I'm playing.</li><li> 3rd person animations can sometimes looks odd and out of place (more on that in suggestions)</li><li> The damage indicators could use some work and variety (based on what's damaging you).</li><li> Overall, the world doesn't feel alive enough, and I have some ideas of how to change that.</li></ul>
<b>Suggestions:</b>
<ul><li> Add more ambient dynamic lighting effects. Light shafts showing through a spinning fan, a blue glow shining through as a turbine turns, and even just a little bit of glare and bloom (but not super overdone like in most modern games).</li><li> Have infestation cover and blot out light fixtures as it spreads, slowly turning the room darker.</li><li> Remove the red emergency lighting, keep rooms pitch black when power's out (much more intense and atmospheric, makes the alien vision advantage even better)</li><li> Have alien structures (including cysts) give off small amounts of ambient light (orange glow) to give dark, infested rooms an organic feeling.</li><li> Louder, and more ambient sounds. Generators working, alien structures gurgling and growing, dripping and dank sounds for infestation, random sparks, clicks, and clanks, wind howling when you're outside, muffled howling when at a window.</li><li> Sound prioritization system, so that you can hear the ambiance while your walking around, but then clearly hear the skulk running up behind you.</li><li> For marines, add dark blurs to the corners of the screen (make it look like you're wearing a helmet, without being too intrusive), an example of a game that does this very well is Interstellar Marines. Also (and I know this is a lot of extra work), seeing your feet/body when looking down in first person can only help when it comes to immersion.</li><li> More/better 3rd person animations for strafing and other things. Really takes you out of the game when you see things magically gliding across the ground, playing an animation that looks very out of sync. </li><li> Better damage indicators could help with immersion, maybe some cracked glass effects for Marines for the visor/helmet feeling of things, or blood veins/slight blurring at the edges of the screen (green veins at the edges of the screen for Aliens). Getting shot/bitten should be more visceral, sudden, and impacting. Louder hit screams/sounds could help as well since they're usually drowned out by everything else.</li><li> Ambient chatter for Marines (Red Orchestra 2 does an excellent job of random environmental chatter), Marines yelling durring fights, or commenting on things outside of fighting, such as saying, "This isn't what I signed up for" while building an RT, or whispering "It's quiet, too quiet" when there isn't any action going on, or yelling "They're everywhere!" durring the action. With a large enough repertoire (so they don't become repetitive) this could add tons of immersion to the game. These ambient voice snippets wouldn't be hearable by the aliens for the sake of competitiveness though (I'm going to make a different post fleshing out this idea). </li><li> Color filtering would help make infested places feel more organic, and Marine controlled places feel grittier. I know the devs are already planning this, but I'm just gonna reinforce my support of it here.</li></ul>
I know these suggestions mean a lot of work, but I believe they would all help add to immersion and a much better overall gaming experience in the long run. I do hope a Dev sees this, since I do think that immersion is a factor of the game that is taking a back seat to other features, and I think it's time that it gets some more attention since the planned release time is drawing nearer. Do you guys have any thoughts, ideas, or feedback that I maybe didn't cover?
<b>The Problem:</b>
Currently in NS2, I rarely get the feeling of being very drawn in and immersed into the world. The game is fun, intense, and strategic, but I can't say it's immersive yet. I trust that the team is working on new features, but I thought I would give some feedback and criticism, and maybe throw in some useful ideas, because I do realize that it's still just a beta. So if a Dev is reading this, here's my feedback:
<i>Criticism and Feedback:</i>
<ul><li> While the lighting is good at this point, it lacks in some ways. Fully infested rooms remain brightly lit, and the red emergency lighting looks kinda ugly in my opinion. </li><li> Ambient sounds either don't exist, or are so soft I never notice them.</li><li> The Marine HUD is very well designed, but something feels amiss about it, and I always feel apart from the character I'm playing.</li><li> 3rd person animations can sometimes looks odd and out of place (more on that in suggestions)</li><li> The damage indicators could use some work and variety (based on what's damaging you).</li><li> Overall, the world doesn't feel alive enough, and I have some ideas of how to change that.</li></ul>
<b>Suggestions:</b>
<ul><li> Add more ambient dynamic lighting effects. Light shafts showing through a spinning fan, a blue glow shining through as a turbine turns, and even just a little bit of glare and bloom (but not super overdone like in most modern games).</li><li> Have infestation cover and blot out light fixtures as it spreads, slowly turning the room darker.</li><li> Remove the red emergency lighting, keep rooms pitch black when power's out (much more intense and atmospheric, makes the alien vision advantage even better)</li><li> Have alien structures (including cysts) give off small amounts of ambient light (orange glow) to give dark, infested rooms an organic feeling.</li><li> Louder, and more ambient sounds. Generators working, alien structures gurgling and growing, dripping and dank sounds for infestation, random sparks, clicks, and clanks, wind howling when you're outside, muffled howling when at a window.</li><li> Sound prioritization system, so that you can hear the ambiance while your walking around, but then clearly hear the skulk running up behind you.</li><li> For marines, add dark blurs to the corners of the screen (make it look like you're wearing a helmet, without being too intrusive), an example of a game that does this very well is Interstellar Marines. Also (and I know this is a lot of extra work), seeing your feet/body when looking down in first person can only help when it comes to immersion.</li><li> More/better 3rd person animations for strafing and other things. Really takes you out of the game when you see things magically gliding across the ground, playing an animation that looks very out of sync. </li><li> Better damage indicators could help with immersion, maybe some cracked glass effects for Marines for the visor/helmet feeling of things, or blood veins/slight blurring at the edges of the screen (green veins at the edges of the screen for Aliens). Getting shot/bitten should be more visceral, sudden, and impacting. Louder hit screams/sounds could help as well since they're usually drowned out by everything else.</li><li> Ambient chatter for Marines (Red Orchestra 2 does an excellent job of random environmental chatter), Marines yelling durring fights, or commenting on things outside of fighting, such as saying, "This isn't what I signed up for" while building an RT, or whispering "It's quiet, too quiet" when there isn't any action going on, or yelling "They're everywhere!" durring the action. With a large enough repertoire (so they don't become repetitive) this could add tons of immersion to the game. These ambient voice snippets wouldn't be hearable by the aliens for the sake of competitiveness though (I'm going to make a different post fleshing out this idea). </li><li> Color filtering would help make infested places feel more organic, and Marine controlled places feel grittier. I know the devs are already planning this, but I'm just gonna reinforce my support of it here.</li></ul>
I know these suggestions mean a lot of work, but I believe they would all help add to immersion and a much better overall gaming experience in the long run. I do hope a Dev sees this, since I do think that immersion is a factor of the game that is taking a back seat to other features, and I think it's time that it gets some more attention since the planned release time is drawing nearer. Do you guys have any thoughts, ideas, or feedback that I maybe didn't cover?
Comments
[*] Better damage indicators could help with immersion, maybe some cracked glass effects for Marines for the visor/helmet feeling of things, or blood veins/slight blurring at the edges of the screen (green veins at the edges of the screen for Aliens). Getting shot/bitten should be more visceral, sudden, and impacting. Louder hit screams/sounds could help as well since they're usually drowned out by everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they decide to bring back round lost on all units killed instead of just the command stations. They should have the marine's heads up display lose connection to the command station and remove the minimap and vitals from the hud. While giving the hud a static interference look and causing the marine to breathe unsteadily as he's trapped in a lost situation. All the while having their location display on the alien's map so the kharaa can easily find them and finish them off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch me mod that out again faster than you can say "more annoying obfuscation"...
I'm not saying that all your suggestions are bad, for example I agree that the third-person animations could use some work (onos lol). However, the gameplay comes first and I'm especially against anything that messes with the interface - we have enough of that already.
The point of those suggestions isn't to get in the way, it's to provide feedback to the player when he gets damaged by something. The cracked glass is probably a bad idea I'll admit, and blood veins isn't the best way to do it either, but something more than health going down. Some sort of effect that comes on at the edges of the screen and quickly goes away. The dark blurred edges is just a personal preference, no way I can argue with that.
I'm not saying that all your suggestions are bad, for example I agree that the third-person animations could use some work (onos lol). However, the gameplay comes first and I'm especially against anything that messes with the interface - we have enough of that already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm reducing immersion to audio-visual features because like you said, the fun, intense, and strategic parts of the immersion are already done very well, the only things left to improve on are the audio-visual. I'm not saying the game is bad without the features I suggested, everything I'm suggesting is just extra, but the extra is what turns a 9/10 game into a 10/10 game. Maybe I sounded overly harsh, but in no way am I trying to dog the game at all, nor do I expect many if any of my suggestions to be considered.
I'm pretty sure I care about immersion and feel more than most of the people who post on these boards based on the complaints I've read people caring or not caring about. One of my biggest annoyances with the game right now are actually those god awful place holder effects for cloak and lerk bite, and I'll be overjoyed when they're gone. Lucky for you and I, UWE has demonstrated time and again that immersion and feel are very important to their vision for the game. I'm sure we'll see all kinds of lovely spit and polish once they have the mechanics and performance where they want them.
edit: oh, also agree about lighting for the most part as far as the orange glow and such is concerned. Red light is kind of ugly, but I'm not sure if 100% pitch black would be a fair answer.
Oh don't worry, you didn't sound harsh at all. That was a well written post, even if I don't agree with it.
Just keep in mind that in a multiplayer game many audio-visual features can distract from the player versus player competition. A broken glass effect on the screen might look pretty, but it is also impairing. Too much darkness might make combat chaotic and create a feeling of helplessness, because you don't see what's attacking you. Guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes less is more.
Much of the time is spent fighting enemies who are not moving in a believable way. Jumping around is one thing, invisible pogo stick wielding break dancing marines is another. Are they motion captured animations? If they make more money they should motion capture different movements so you don't get the exact same jump animation no matter the speed or direction.
The fundamental way to make a game feel immersive is to allow players the feeling they can effect the world. If I shoot a glass bottle in ns2_docking and all I see are some sparks, that is jarring.
So, better animations, bug fixes, hit reg/hit boxes whatever, basic physics = gg :)
This in vortex mode on marines would be badass!
there are scenes like this in all the half life games, and they work pretty well there (although they're a bit dated now)
might be cool...might just be more stuff we don't need..
While the devs always said they don't want us to be fighting in pitch black (so we won't see the nice levels) turning it a bit darker wouldn't hurt it.
And I'd love ambient music, games like Fallout always sounded extremely better because of it.
Basically all the ideas concerning the more or less static levels= lighting, ambient sounds, the moving lights through fans (wasn't there an early engine video where we had exactly that?). Those would be great.
The other ones would be either too much work or, as others pointed out, too obtrusive.
And I'm all for random chatter: "Game over man! Game over!"
Honestly, having the entire area pre-lit until a power node is built THEN destroyed makes no sense, and this lessens the alien's visual advantage since 9/10 times you have a starting hive that is fully lit for the entirety of the game. Aliens should have the darkness/red light advantage on their turf.
At the end of the day though, this is a multiplayer, competitive title so any 'immersion' effects need to not intrude on the players ability to fight.
Thats sad that they have that opinion, with the latest alien vision I think most of the maps look pretty cool as an alien, the red emergency lighting is lame and should be severly toned down.
Aliens should be entitled to a decent buff for taking out a power node...a few seconds is hardly worth the effort.
Make the maps looks cool for the aliens in alien vision, make the marines need to be powering things up or seeing very little (reduce by atleast 1/2 emergency ambient lighting), currently they can just run throughout a map with normal lighting...aliens cant reduce lighting in a previously unsocketed area (meaning often alien 2nd hives are fully light), this needs to be fixed as aliens cant eliminate lighting unless marines have already attempted to take an area.
As far as the random chatter, I don't mean for it to be cheesy B movie stuff. Like I said, Red Orchestra 2 is the only game I can think of that does a very good random chatter system, and in that game the chatter really draws you in, it's difficult to express without actually playing the game. But I do think it might be too much work since as stated, it would require a large repertoire of sounds so it wouldn't become stale. It could be considered as a post release update though, or would make an awesome mod perhaps.
Something we discussed a while ago it make the voice chat better by having,
1) Distance based communication, only nearby teammate hear you
2) Radio communication to the whole team (with some light radio effect)
3) Commander communication (clearer, and slightly mute the other ones)
These would both improve immersion and gameplay, typically when you see a skulk coming behind a marine, you shout "behind you!" in you mic and the whole team turns around instead of only the relevant marine...
I think some image post-processing could also improve the immersion (distance blur, ...). These kind of thing can easily be optional so everybody is happy.
Map interaction , like using the toilets should be standard since duke nukem.
EDIT: so i can't show steam screenshots here, but just compare it, fog makes everything look way to whiteish, and you can easily see in pitch black with fog on. It should just be removed completly.
^^ Exactly.
/signed.
At the very least make it possible to remove things like this through the options menu.
- Many times in a map some generator or other "static" sound is way louder than anything else in the game.
- Stations the player interacts with (weapon loadout / gates etc) should be at a reasonably loud volume to make them sound 'strong'. Now some sound very dull/small while other things like mines make lots of noise.
That raise in volume of alien footsteps a few patches back already improved immersion for playing marine. Hearing them crawling around adds suspense! Therefor immersion +1.
Not to disrespect the sound engineer. I know he is skillfull. When the NS2 engine will be able to handle mastering better he can compress/limit the master output and most variations in volume we hear now will be gone. Everything will be loud enough.
At the very least make it possible to remove things like this through the options menu.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Server setting would be better idea, also easier to set up for clan games v Pub games with the later being the audience more inclined to enjoy the immersion trade off.
Who needs a visually appealing game anyways.