<!--quoteo(post=1944660:date=Jun 18 2012, 04:36 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 18 2012, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do regret that NS seems to be very hard for newcommers. Hopefully UWE can introduce matchmaking or some sort of filtering based on experience - keep the casuals with the casuals, elites with the elites, and make everyone enjoy themselves more for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't think the dev-team needs to bother with match-making considering it'll basically be a server-side choice of being forced to be ranked/unranked (though the game and its players will be entirely ranked now and looking at their marine vs alien win/lose system I doubt it'll work well.)
@OP This is one of those games you need to learn or end up quitting early (Hence; <b>Natural Selection</b>.) The problem I see is that even though your 'expectations' might be met I doubt you'll play more than a few weeks of multiplayer before quitting entirely. Sure, the team shouldn't be making the game built around experienced NS(2)-players but I doubt it should give heavy handicaps (Your, 'twitch-movement skill' comment made it sound like you wanted auto-aim and smoothing.)
For what it's worth, I for one really miss the slower pace of Ns 1 gameplay. NS 2 at times just feels like the Quake of NS 1, with aliens just throwing themselves into the marines and vice versa. (Instead of carefully stalking, ambushing, etc) That slower gameplay was probably a lot more forgiving for newer players as well, and no doubt one of the things that made NS 1 great. (Perhaps RFK played a role in this, since just stupidly throwing yourself at the enemy would give them resources... Faster overall movement speed probably affected this for the worse as well)
<!--quoteo(post=1944144:date=Jun 17 2012, 11:45 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it just feels im fighting the game more than the other team. and to me that is a game breaker. my best example being the aliens... most of them rely on being in melee range where in youre vision only has a marine leg on screen for a fraction of a second. and this is just you fighting the mechanic better than the opposing player. this could be better remedied by pulling the screen back to third person. but the game was never balanced around this style and would completely break it for a while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually a pretty good idea. Though I'm fairly certain that it will never happen, it would make skulking a lot easier for sure.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1944694:date=Jun 19 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 19 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For what it's worth, I for one really miss the slower pace of Ns 1 gameplay. NS 2 at times just feels like the Quake of NS 1, with aliens just throwing themselves into the marines and vice versa. (Instead of carefully stalking, ambushing, etc) That slower gameplay was probably a lot more forgiving for newer players as well, and no doubt one of the things that made NS 1 great. (Perhaps RFK played a role in this, since just stupidly throwing yourself at the enemy would give them resources... Faster overall movement speed probably affected this for the worse as well)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup, the "rushy-ness" of NS2 is a real disappointment compared to the methodical NS1 skulk vs. marine gameplay. I'm not entirely sure why it's happening, but I have a few thoughts:
<u><b>1. Poor performance/weird model animations/map geometry</b></u> means skulks can rush with impunity because marines have a really hard time aiming at, and registering hits on, fast moving targets. Since rushing works so well, skulks don't have any incentives to play the slow ambushing game.
<u><b>2. Small maps/fast marine respawn rate/sprint</b></u> means marines can run from their base to "locations of interest" so fast that aliens simply don't have time to set up ambushes.
<u><b>3. Larger skulks/maps with fewer natural hiding spots</b></u> means aliens have fewer viable places to hide.
<u><b>4. Unusable skulk walk key (you stick to everything so it's essentially useless for skulks)</b></u> means skulks can't move around without making any sounds, which means marines always know where the skulks are, which in turn means that you may as well rush because how are you going to ambush somebody that knows where you are?
<u><b>5. Walljumping system for skulks</b></u> means giving skulks incentives for rushing, since the only way to get it up to proper speeds is to spend time building up speed before rushing. If you stop to evaluate the situation or ambush, you lose all your speed.
<u><b>6. No bunnyhop</b></u> means skulks can't get a quick speed boost when jumping out from a hiding spot (walljump is useless for this as you need a few jumps to build up speed).
I think it's telling that in official promo vids for NS2 you see skulks moving around at walking speed. I get about 30fps and quite often it feels like I only see one or two frames before a skulk lands the first bite. Really skilled skulks move really quickly. At a certain speed, the fps starts interfering with your reaction time because, according to your brain, the skulk stops moving as a continuous entity and starts teleporting. This is quite separate from issues where people with higher pings appear to teleport around and nothing to do with server performance. I think the brain can do a lot of prediction work when we're talking about newtonian bodies in motion but when we slip over to quantum motion you lose prediction and fall back to reaction times, which are in the order of 200ms and that means at 30fps you react to the first frame after a further five frames have elapsed. And skulks moving at speed can be a long way away after 5 frames.
So I'd just suggest taking a look at skulk speed at the extremes where there's leap and wall jumping. Maybe tone that down a bit and you can compensate by increasing his base movement speed. Though to be honest I don't know what place wall jump has in terms of intuitive gameplay. It seems pretty contrary to some of the design goals around the game being self-explanatory. I think it might just be gravy for the pros and contributes to OPs isues.
<!--quoteo(post=1944724:date=Jun 19 2012, 03:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 19 2012, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, the "rushy-ness" of NS2 is a real disappointment compared to the methodical NS1 skulk vs. marine gameplay. I'm not entirely sure why it's happening, but I have a few thoughts:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add to that list the fact that if you set up an ambush 8 times out of 10 the marine is going to infallibly locate you the instant they enter the room and gun you down without giving you time to react, regardless that you were hiding inside a vent in a dark room over the door holding shift to not make any noise. If this is thanks to a very generous minimap or the abuse of some mod I don't know, but ambushing is much more dangerous for the skulk than to the marine.
And good luck ambushing a jetpacking marine.
And marines move mostly by phase gate and beacon after the 5 minute mark, so by then ambushing is pointless anyway.
It's kind of fun to read that people claim that you can learn the game by joining servers, and the community is a nice and welcomming one, and in the same thread people is flaming the OP, because he says he feels it's hard to get into the game and learn it.
I think the game can be made more accesible, when it's more polished, with tooltips and similar ingame, so you don't have to worry too much about the mechanics, and instead can focus on aiming, learning the maps, and getting the concept of the game. We all know it's a beta, but if we can't comment of make suggestions, then what's the point of the community. Criticism is fine and good, but basically quoting a post and say in so many words "you fail" doesn't really help anyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1944724:date=Jun 19 2012, 03:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jun 19 2012, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, the "rushy-ness" of NS2 is a real disappointment compared to the methodical NS1 skulk vs. marine gameplay. I'm not entirely sure why it's happening, but I have a few thoughts:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you're missing close spawns... that makes the game very deathmatch-y.
The mechanics are straight forward to me because I've played NS1 and NS2 for years.
What IS hard is playing marine and trying to hit aliens which are literally or almost literally teleporting, and if feels like even when you're aiming well the damn aliens don't get hit.
I remember one of the first online FPS I played was Unreal Tournament, and back then we didn't have broadband so you had to aim ahead of your opponents because there was a one second delay after you hit fire.
Even with those constraints, and fast moving enemies jumping around, I found it easier to hit targets than I do in NS2. When my ping is over 150+ I can only play alien, where aiming isn't so important.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add to that list the fact that if you set up an ambush 8 times out of 10 the marine is going to infallibly locate you the instant they enter the room and gun you down without giving you time to react, regardless that you were hiding inside a vent in a dark room over the door holding shift to not make any noise. If this is thanks to a very generous minimap or the abuse of some mod I don't know, but ambushing is much more dangerous for the skulk than to the marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->\
This is often overlooked as well and I honestly can't believe they still haven't fixed the minimap tracking of skulks several seconds after they've bitten an RT or player. If even without scans you can see aliens on the minimap at times, it's pretty moot to try and play the game at a slower pace because if you do marines will get the hit on you before you even had time to jump on them. I seriously hope they address this sooner or later.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1944843:date=Jun 19 2012, 01:53 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jun 19 2012, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is often overlooked as well and I honestly can't believe they still haven't fixed the minimap tracking of skulks several seconds after they've bitten an RT or player. If even without scans you can see aliens on the minimap at times, it's pretty moot to try and play the game at a slower pace because if you do marines will get the hit on you before you even had time to jump on them. I seriously hope they address this sooner or later.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO, all LOS from structures should be removed. You should be able to see that the building is under attack, but not what is attacking it.
In general I think the minimap gives too much information. It should be more vague, meaning you can't get every single piece of relevant information about the game simply from glancing at it for a second. This also applies to map layout; I'd like it to be less detailed, putting more emphasis on exploration for new(er) players.
Let's be frank NS community, this is not a game for the faint of heart. This game is not accessible.
An accessible game punishes mistakes less, and decreases the impact of individual skill. A hardcore game punishes mistakes more, and increases the impact of individual skill. NS2 is the latter. Teamwork is required, particularly in competitive play, but before that matters, you must be able to kill effectively.
The game is built in such a way that rewards dedicated players, allowing them to roll over their less skilled counterparts. If you are bad, you will be punished for it repeatedly. If you are skilled, you will be rewarded for it.
Knowing the mechanics is just knowledge. You'll learn them in a few games. Knowing how to shoot, bite, and dodge is a psycho-motor skill taking a lot more hours of practice, coupled with more hours of frustration. If you want relaxation, play a different game, play gorge, or simply play for mastery.
<!--quoteo(post=1944144:date=Jun 17 2012, 12:45 PM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as i said this is all my opinion, but i think that "twitch aiming" isnt "skill". its just hard. i see it as adding difficulty to the mechanics just to do that. but again i understand that all gamers tend to enjoy mastering a system (mine is the Transformers WFC game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a game for those who are determined to master it, dealing with the endless losses and deaths to achieve that mastery.
<!--quoteo(post=1944224:date=Jun 17 2012, 05:19 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jun 17 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what do you want the game to do, hold your hand? give you CoD autoaim? bright flashing text on screen whenever there's a skulk in some dark corner, and have it outline it in neon green for you to see? apply a bullet time effect whenever some marine is shooting at you so that you can dodge the individual bullets?
what exactly are you looking for here? it's an fps. a skill based fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually yes, some examples.
Many FPSes (every CS-like FPS these days really) force shooters to stop and shoot, as moving increases inaccuracy. That's recoil mechanics at work. Many FPSes (think Left 4 Dead) if a creature moves quickly, it'll slow down while attacking to make it easier to hit. Many FPS if an enemy is hit, they either die quickly (CoD, BF) or are slowed down by the hit (CS, among others).
These ideas, among others, are for increasing accessibility, decreasing twitch, and increasing that word we love so much: teamwork. Don't ask me how these mechanics would work for NS, as that'd be pure speculation.
<!--quoteo(post=1944516:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: when i say ranking im not talking about CoD ranking which is just XP, im talking about matchmaking.
i joined this game for tactical shooter scifi game play. i got twitchy scifi skin of CS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with OP: this game has a high individual skill ceiling, therefore it should have matchmaking as well. Bad players should fight bad players, good players should fight good players. When bad players face good players, the lesser skilled will migrate to other games.
"Tactical shooter sci-fi gameplay" isn't NS. Replace "tactical shooter" with "action shooter" and you'll have an accurate impression. Just need to add rolls to marines, or super sprint shoes -- maybe as additional upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1944520:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 18 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like you're looking for a single player game. Multiplayer games are more like sports or chess, not movie like experiences. If you play chess against someone better than you then expect to get beaten. Sure you can still play them casually and have a bit of fun - I play pool casually but if I played against anyone who practised they would own me. You can't expect the game to remove all depth just so it can cater to players who don't practice. Your best option is to try and play against players of a similar skill level. There is talk of them introducing matchmaking and once 1.0 comes out I'm sure there will be many more players that just want to play for fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think Left 4 Dead 2 versus, TF2, or others. He's willing to practice (100 matches he claims -- it's better to know how many hours played), but not willing to accumulate a bunch of hours for the <u>real</u> experience (the frustrating experience is the one where you can't hold any nodes as marine because you can't shoot worth a damn). It's fun to lose, but to lose repeatedly and keep pushing yourself after, is for hardcore pro-gamers who want to be rewarded for their consistent practice and high endurance.
<!--quoteo(post=1944539:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:59 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 18 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And there goes another member of the community we cant afford to lose. I agree that the attitudes on here as well as in game can be shockingly bad and very immature at times, and I fear others will be scared off from expressing their opinions. The game will then be at the mercy of the vocal minority who demand the game to be made to their liking which would not be good. We all are entitled to say what we want without fear of nasty retaliatory replies but the anonymity of forums are a magnet for this sort of childish behaviour. I post a lot less than I used to because of the abuse I have been given in the past for daring to have an opinion.
Easy to learn but hard to master should be the devs mantra. The last 20 builds have moved away from strategy or depth and more towards a style of twitch shooting that we have more than enough of already. I love the game but fear in what direction it seems to be heading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the game releases, the vocal minority will still be the forum majority. People who quit, don't post. People who post, don't quit.
But Salraine_Chi hit the elephant in the room: <b>Is this the right direction for NS2?</b>
Without strong matchmaking, NS2 will sell to a hardcore community of determined tryhards (like myself) and pro-gamers, pushing away the casual audience. This isn't a bad thing, and quite sustainable with regular DLC content. Think Heroes of Newerth.
If the goal is to make a lot of money, however, this is a terrible direction. The reasons should be obvious.
Off topic, this is indirectly an argument to keep individual score in the game. If there's a great deal of room for individual skill improvement, which there is, than individual score should remain -- the more data the better.
<!--quoteo(post=1944888:date=Jun 19 2012, 03:57 PM:name=Hozartis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hozartis @ Jun 19 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An accessible game punishes mistakes less, and decreases the impact of individual skill. A hardcore game punishes mistakes more, and increases the impact of individual skill. NS2 is the latter. Teamwork is required, particularly in competitive play, but before that matters, you must be able to kill effectively.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Decreasing the impact of individual skill may make a game more accessible but it will also reduce the depth. The truth is, the game is only as difficult as the opponents you are playing against. A game can still be accessible without decreasing the impact of indifidual skill. Look at CS:GO, honestly, that is probably the most accessible game you can get. It's very easy to understand you just buy some guns and then go and shoot - but it is also very deep. If you are playing against a pro then it would be very frustrating. That is not a problem with the game, this is true for all well designed games, if you play against a player who is much better than you then it will be frustrating. There is no way to avoid that without removing depth from the game and making it less rewarding.
Matchmaking is important to group similarly skilled players together. Right now the player base is quite small as well and often you will join a server and see the same people playing. This is obviously worse for accessibility since new players will often be playing against very experienced ones. It will get better once the game is officially launched and more people are playing. A bigger player base means there is a greater chance you will find players that have the same skill as you.
I don't think NS2 has a high individual skill celling. I think if that were true you would really see an active competitive scene but half the time no one plays matches because the game is just frustrating. NS2 currently has many unbalances and frustrating things even for experienced players. This will hopefully improve as the game nears 1.0
As well as that, performance is obviously a huge factor right now. If you don't have the best cpu then aiming will probably be more about luck as your FPS will be so low. It's hard to say if aiming is really hard in ns2 or if it's just because you only have 20fps. Try playing cs at 20fps with a server on 15 tickrate and I'm pretty sure it would be frustrating as well.
tl;dr: wait till the game is more polished, has better performance and more players.
<!--quoteo(post=1944888:date=Jun 19 2012, 09:57 AM:name=Hozartis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hozartis @ Jun 19 2012, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with OP: this game has a high individual skill ceiling, therefore it should have matchmaking as well. Bad players should fight bad players, good players should fight good players. When bad players face good players, the lesser skilled will migrate to other games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1673741:date=Mar 20 2008, 01:01 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 20 2008, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah this is a common problem for people. I'd really like to address this by adding in matchmaking and possibly skill-assessment/tracking so we can put people in games with other people of the same skill level. This isn't an easy or quick thing to do but I bet we'll do this eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Matchmaking will most likely be added. I believe he said this quite recently as well, though I can't remember where.
I always found big public games in NS1 to accommodate nicely different skills levels. NS is a team based game, so it's not as sensitive to skill difference problems as other type of games.
Typically playing NS1 I was often happy to have a few competent fades to hold the team together, while lesser skilled players gorging and skulking.
Marines works well also with different skill levels, because they move in squad, the best players can lead the other ones and cover while they build.
It's very nice as a new player to be guided by more competent ones.
But there is some problems of course if the skill difference is too big, specially if the good players are ######bag.
I would hate to see match making added. That would mean you would be connecting to other random computers. I like connecting to actual servers that are local.
I also hate these arguments. Why do people hate challenges so much? The challenge is what makes me love this game. Games like COD, where I just run over the other team without any practice, are just boring. Going 5-20 in this game just motivates me to play more.
<!--quoteo(post=1945171:date=Jun 20 2012, 03:37 PM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jun 20 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would hate to see match making added. That would mean you would be connecting to other random computers. I like connecting to actual servers that are local.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many games have matchmaking that connects you to dedicated servers.
Matchmaking will most likely be a psuedo-clone of the recent Source matchmaking upgrade used in CS and TF2, where it simply finds you a reasonably close server with other people on it for the game mode and/or map you're interested in.
<!--quoteo(post=1945177:date=Jun 20 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 20 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many games have matchmaking that connects you to dedicated servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, some have that option. I know you could in L4D. But, unless you buy a server and put in the commands to connect to your server, you have a good chance of connecting to a server that isn't close to you. I hate games that put ypu in random servers just as much as ones connecting you to a random PC of someone playing. I don't know why this type of trend started, but I would bet it was from console gaming and having developers who were too lazy to change it for the PC version of their games.
I want to pick the server I play on and make sure that my ping is great. This is also a much better way for a game to develope a community, as you will be playing with a lot of the same people who like the servers in the same area as you.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I hope there is a party system so you could easily join a game with a friend without worrying about waiting for a spot to be open on a team. Also allowing an easy competitive team vs team matchmaking system where a team could choose a preferred side (Frontiersmen or Kharaa) and choose the preferred server region like (North America - East)
<!--quoteo(post=1945190:date=Jun 20 2012, 10:37 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 20 2012, 10:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945190"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can still use the server browser even if matchmaking is added...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would that work? You are matched into a server for an ongoing game? How would you get put with players near the same skill if you open it up for everyone to join the servers? If good players already joined that server, or joined after you, you would have the exact same complaints. It seems to me that the matchmaking would be a wasted effort then.
Well I guess matchmaking would put you into a lobby and then start the game on an empty server once there are 12 players, like the current esnl gather system. Server browser would work as normal for joining pub games. Cs:go has elo based matchmaking and a server browser so it'd probably be similar to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1945201:date=Jun 20 2012, 11:55 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jun 20 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would that work? You are matched into a server for an ongoing game? How would you get put with players near the same skill if you open it up for everyone to join the servers? If good players already joined that server, or joined after you, you would have the exact same complaints. It seems to me that the matchmaking would be a wasted effort then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Matchmaking will merely be a different way to use the server browser. For those people who don't want to look through 100 servers to find the one they want, they can just hit the "find me a match" button. It's a useful feature for many players, but really it's just another way to utilize functionality that already exists.
<!--quoteo(post=1945224:date=Jun 20 2012, 11:50 AM:name=hapro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapro @ Jun 20 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Matchmaking will merely be a different way to use the server browser. For those people who don't want to look through 100 servers to find the one they want, they can just hit the "find me a match" button. It's a useful feature for many players, but really it's just another way to utilize functionality that already exists.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I get. I wasn't getting how this fit in with the suggestions to match based on skill. A quickmatch option wouldn't be bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1944120:date=Jun 17 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this game aim at the professional gamer market?
i feel as if ive wasted my money
i've been playing FPS's since Doom 2, and am not an unskilled player, but im having problems thinking how this game will draw in many people outside of the hardcore pro-gamer circuit. as other games geared towards the pro level tend to have tiers or a ranking system, allowing for low skilled players to be matched against others their skill level. as of now (i am not certain if the devs are planning a ranking system, but dont think they will, as the game is currently user owned servers.)
this game is obscenely hard
this is a huge flaw. the game should be deep not hard. as of now, with the extremely fast speeds and chaotic movements, its just hard to even aim (either side) and i dont think one should be fighting the mechanics they should be fighting their opponent
yes, i know the opponent is also under the same constraints, think of it like this.
take Soccer (football) and think how it would play if you kept the same rules but changed the ball from the round one it is to something more like the american egg shaped football (handegg) it changes from insanely difficult to control the ball and only a few highly practised people can really do it, but the amatures are going to have a hard time getting into it.... its kinda why Soccer is the worlds most played sport. is simple to play but has alot of depth to explore and master.
but this is my current problem. thanks for the fun. but this isnt for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944144:date=Jun 17 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its just hard.
hugely complex, hugely noob unfriendly, tight, if small, dedicated community) ill wait until someone makes a dumbed down version that i can play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea how this cannot be construed as a troll post because you literally state that you will wait for someone to make a, and I'm quoting you now, "dumbed-down version that [you] can play."
In other words, you seem to be calling yourself stupid. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Comments
I really don't think the dev-team needs to bother with match-making considering it'll basically be a server-side choice of being forced to be ranked/unranked (though the game and its players will be entirely ranked now and looking at their marine vs alien win/lose system I doubt it'll work well.)
@OP This is one of those games you need to learn or end up quitting early (Hence; <b>Natural Selection</b>.) The problem I see is that even though your 'expectations' might be met I doubt you'll play more than a few weeks of multiplayer before quitting entirely. Sure, the team shouldn't be making the game built around experienced NS(2)-players but I doubt it should give heavy handicaps (Your, 'twitch-movement skill' comment made it sound like you wanted auto-aim and smoothing.)
That's actually a pretty good idea. Though I'm fairly certain that it will never happen, it would make skulking a lot easier for sure.
Yup, the "rushy-ness" of NS2 is a real disappointment compared to the methodical NS1 skulk vs. marine gameplay. I'm not entirely sure why it's happening, but I have a few thoughts:
<u><b>1. Poor performance/weird model animations/map geometry</b></u> means skulks can rush with impunity because marines have a really hard time aiming at, and registering hits on, fast moving targets. Since rushing works so well, skulks don't have any incentives to play the slow ambushing game.
<u><b>2. Small maps/fast marine respawn rate/sprint</b></u> means marines can run from their base to "locations of interest" so fast that aliens simply don't have time to set up ambushes.
<u><b>3. Larger skulks/maps with fewer natural hiding spots</b></u> means aliens have fewer viable places to hide.
<u><b>4. Unusable skulk walk key (you stick to everything so it's essentially useless for skulks)</b></u> means skulks can't move around without making any sounds, which means marines always know where the skulks are, which in turn means that you may as well rush because how are you going to ambush somebody that knows where you are?
<u><b>5. Walljumping system for skulks</b></u> means giving skulks incentives for rushing, since the only way to get it up to proper speeds is to spend time building up speed before rushing. If you stop to evaluate the situation or ambush, you lose all your speed.
<u><b>6. No bunnyhop</b></u> means skulks can't get a quick speed boost when jumping out from a hiding spot (walljump is useless for this as you need a few jumps to build up speed).
So I'd just suggest taking a look at skulk speed at the extremes where there's leap and wall jumping. Maybe tone that down a bit and you can compensate by increasing his base movement speed. Though to be honest I don't know what place wall jump has in terms of intuitive gameplay. It seems pretty contrary to some of the design goals around the game being self-explanatory. I think it might just be gravy for the pros and contributes to OPs isues.
Add to that list the fact that if you set up an ambush 8 times out of 10 the marine is going to infallibly locate you the instant they enter the room and gun you down without giving you time to react, regardless that you were hiding inside a vent in a dark room over the door holding shift to not make any noise. If this is thanks to a very generous minimap or the abuse of some mod I don't know, but ambushing is much more dangerous for the skulk than to the marine.
And good luck ambushing a jetpacking marine.
And marines move mostly by phase gate and beacon after the 5 minute mark, so by then ambushing is pointless anyway.
I think the game can be made more accesible, when it's more polished, with tooltips and similar ingame, so you don't have to worry too much about the mechanics, and instead can focus on aiming, learning the maps, and getting the concept of the game. We all know it's a beta, but if we can't comment of make suggestions, then what's the point of the community. Criticism is fine and good, but basically quoting a post and say in so many words "you fail" doesn't really help anyone.
I think you're missing close spawns... that makes the game very deathmatch-y.
What IS hard is playing marine and trying to hit aliens which are literally or almost literally teleporting, and if feels like even when you're aiming well the damn aliens don't get hit.
I remember one of the first online FPS I played was Unreal Tournament, and back then we didn't have broadband so you had to aim ahead of your opponents because there was a one second delay after you hit fire.
Even with those constraints, and fast moving enemies jumping around, I found it easier to hit targets than I do in NS2. When my ping is over 150+ I can only play alien, where aiming isn't so important.
This is often overlooked as well and I honestly can't believe they still haven't fixed the minimap tracking of skulks several seconds after they've bitten an RT or player. If even without scans you can see aliens on the minimap at times, it's pretty moot to try and play the game at a slower pace because if you do marines will get the hit on you before you even had time to jump on them. I seriously hope they address this sooner or later.
IMO, all LOS from structures should be removed. You should be able to see that the building is under attack, but not what is attacking it.
In general I think the minimap gives too much information. It should be more vague, meaning you can't get every single piece of relevant information about the game simply from glancing at it for a second. This also applies to map layout; I'd like it to be less detailed, putting more emphasis on exploration for new(er) players.
An accessible game punishes mistakes less, and decreases the impact of individual skill. A hardcore game punishes mistakes more, and increases the impact of individual skill. NS2 is the latter. Teamwork is required, particularly in competitive play, but before that matters, you must be able to kill effectively.
The game is built in such a way that rewards dedicated players, allowing them to roll over their less skilled counterparts. If you are bad, you will be punished for it repeatedly. If you are skilled, you will be rewarded for it.
Knowing the mechanics is just knowledge. You'll learn them in a few games. Knowing how to shoot, bite, and dodge is a psycho-motor skill taking a lot more hours of practice, coupled with more hours of frustration. If you want relaxation, play a different game, play gorge, or simply play for mastery.
<!--quoteo(post=1944144:date=Jun 17 2012, 12:45 PM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as i said this is all my opinion, but i think that "twitch aiming" isnt "skill". its just hard. i see it as adding difficulty to the mechanics just to do that. but again i understand that all gamers tend to enjoy mastering a system (mine is the Transformers WFC game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a game for those who are determined to master it, dealing with the endless losses and deaths to achieve that mastery.
<!--quoteo(post=1944224:date=Jun 17 2012, 05:19 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jun 17 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what do you want the game to do, hold your hand? give you CoD autoaim? bright flashing text on screen whenever there's a skulk in some dark corner, and have it outline it in neon green for you to see? apply a bullet time effect whenever some marine is shooting at you so that you can dodge the individual bullets?
what exactly are you looking for here? it's an fps. a skill based fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually yes, some examples.
Many FPSes (every CS-like FPS these days really) force shooters to stop and shoot, as moving increases inaccuracy. That's recoil mechanics at work.
Many FPSes (think Left 4 Dead) if a creature moves quickly, it'll slow down while attacking to make it easier to hit.
Many FPS if an enemy is hit, they either die quickly (CoD, BF) or are slowed down by the hit (CS, among others).
These ideas, among others, are for increasing accessibility, decreasing twitch, and increasing that word we love so much: teamwork. Don't ask me how these mechanics would work for NS, as that'd be pure speculation.
<!--quoteo(post=1944516:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944516"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: when i say ranking im not talking about CoD ranking which is just XP, im talking about matchmaking.
i joined this game for tactical shooter scifi game play. i got twitchy scifi skin of CS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with OP: this game has a high individual skill ceiling, therefore it should have matchmaking as well. Bad players should fight bad players, good players should fight good players. When bad players face good players, the lesser skilled will migrate to other games.
"Tactical shooter sci-fi gameplay" isn't NS. Replace "tactical shooter" with "action shooter" and you'll have an accurate impression. Just need to add rolls to marines, or super sprint shoes -- maybe as additional upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1944520:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 18 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like you're looking for a single player game. Multiplayer games are more like sports or chess, not movie like experiences. If you play chess against someone better than you then expect to get beaten. Sure you can still play them casually and have a bit of fun - I play pool casually but if I played against anyone who practised they would own me. You can't expect the game to remove all depth just so it can cater to players who don't practice. Your best option is to try and play against players of a similar skill level. There is talk of them introducing matchmaking and once 1.0 comes out I'm sure there will be many more players that just want to play for fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think Left 4 Dead 2 versus, TF2, or others. He's willing to practice (100 matches he claims -- it's better to know how many hours played), but not willing to accumulate a bunch of hours for the <u>real</u> experience (the frustrating experience is the one where you can't hold any nodes as marine because you can't shoot worth a damn). It's fun to lose, but to lose repeatedly and keep pushing yourself after, is for hardcore pro-gamers who want to be rewarded for their consistent practice and high endurance.
<!--quoteo(post=1944539:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:59 AM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Jun 18 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And there goes another member of the community we cant afford to lose. I agree that the attitudes on here as well as in game can be shockingly bad and very immature at times, and I fear others will be scared off from expressing their opinions. The game will then be at the mercy of the vocal minority who demand the game to be made to their liking which would not be good. We all are entitled to say what we want without fear of nasty retaliatory replies but the anonymity of forums are a magnet for this sort of childish behaviour. I post a lot less than I used to because of the abuse I have been given in the past for daring to have an opinion.
Easy to learn but hard to master should be the devs mantra. The last 20 builds have moved away from strategy or depth and more towards a style of twitch shooting that we have more than enough of already. I love the game but fear in what direction it seems to be heading.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the game releases, the vocal minority will still be the forum majority. People who quit, don't post. People who post, don't quit.
But Salraine_Chi hit the elephant in the room: <b>Is this the right direction for NS2?</b>
Without strong matchmaking, NS2 will sell to a hardcore community of determined tryhards (like myself) and pro-gamers, pushing away the casual audience. This isn't a bad thing, and quite sustainable with regular DLC content. Think Heroes of Newerth.
If the goal is to make a lot of money, however, this is a terrible direction. The reasons should be obvious.
Off topic, this is indirectly an argument to keep individual score in the game. If there's a great deal of room for individual skill improvement, which there is, than individual score should remain -- the more data the better.
I disagree. Decreasing the impact of individual skill may make a game more accessible but it will also reduce the depth. The truth is, the game is only as difficult as the opponents you are playing against. A game can still be accessible without decreasing the impact of indifidual skill. Look at CS:GO, honestly, that is probably the most accessible game you can get. It's very easy to understand you just buy some guns and then go and shoot - but it is also very deep. If you are playing against a pro then it would be very frustrating. That is not a problem with the game, this is true for all well designed games, if you play against a player who is much better than you then it will be frustrating. There is no way to avoid that without removing depth from the game and making it less rewarding.
Matchmaking is important to group similarly skilled players together. Right now the player base is quite small as well and often you will join a server and see the same people playing. This is obviously worse for accessibility since new players will often be playing against very experienced ones. It will get better once the game is officially launched and more people are playing. A bigger player base means there is a greater chance you will find players that have the same skill as you.
I don't think NS2 has a high individual skill celling. I think if that were true you would really see an active competitive scene but half the time no one plays matches because the game is just frustrating. NS2 currently has many unbalances and frustrating things even for experienced players. This will hopefully improve as the game nears 1.0
As well as that, performance is obviously a huge factor right now. If you don't have the best cpu then aiming will probably be more about luck as your FPS will be so low. It's hard to say if aiming is really hard in ns2 or if it's just because you only have 20fps. Try playing cs at 20fps with a server on 15 tickrate and I'm pretty sure it would be frustrating as well.
tl;dr: wait till the game is more polished, has better performance and more players.
<!--quoteo(post=1673741:date=Mar 20 2008, 01:01 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 20 2008, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1673741"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah this is a common problem for people. I'd really like to address this by adding in matchmaking and possibly skill-assessment/tracking so we can put people in games with other people of the same skill level. This isn't an easy or quick thing to do but I bet we'll do this eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Matchmaking will most likely be added. I believe he said this quite recently as well, though I can't remember where.
Typically playing NS1 I was often happy to have a few competent fades to hold the team together, while lesser skilled players gorging and skulking.
Marines works well also with different skill levels, because they move in squad, the best players can lead the other ones and cover while they build.
It's very nice as a new player to be guided by more competent ones.
But there is some problems of course if the skill difference is too big, specially if the good players are ######bag.
I also hate these arguments. Why do people hate challenges so much? The challenge is what makes me love this game. Games like COD, where I just run over the other team without any practice, are just boring. Going 5-20 in this game just motivates me to play more.
Many games have matchmaking that connects you to dedicated servers.
Yes, some have that option. I know you could in L4D. But, unless you buy a server and put in the commands to connect to your server, you have a good chance of connecting to a server that isn't close to you. I hate games that put ypu in random servers just as much as ones connecting you to a random PC of someone playing. I don't know why this type of trend started, but I would bet it was from console gaming and having developers who were too lazy to change it for the PC version of their games.
I want to pick the server I play on and make sure that my ping is great. This is also a much better way for a game to develope a community, as you will be playing with a lot of the same people who like the servers in the same area as you.
How would that work? You are matched into a server for an ongoing game? How would you get put with players near the same skill if you open it up for everyone to join the servers? If good players already joined that server, or joined after you, you would have the exact same complaints. It seems to me that the matchmaking would be a wasted effort then.
Matchmaking will merely be a different way to use the server browser. For those people who don't want to look through 100 servers to find the one they want, they can just hit the "find me a match" button. It's a useful feature for many players, but really it's just another way to utilize functionality that already exists.
This I get. I wasn't getting how this fit in with the suggestions to match based on skill. A quickmatch option wouldn't be bad.
i feel as if ive wasted my money
i've been playing FPS's since Doom 2, and am not an unskilled player, but im having problems thinking how this game will draw in many people outside of the hardcore pro-gamer circuit. as other games geared towards the pro level tend to have tiers or a ranking system, allowing for low skilled players to be matched against others their skill level. as of now (i am not certain if the devs are planning a ranking system, but dont think they will, as the game is currently user owned servers.)
this game is obscenely hard
this is a huge flaw. the game should be deep not hard. as of now, with the extremely fast speeds and chaotic movements, its just hard to even aim (either side) and i dont think one should be fighting the mechanics they should be fighting their opponent
yes, i know the opponent is also under the same constraints, think of it like this.
take Soccer (football) and think how it would play if you kept the same rules but changed the ball from the round one it is to something more like the american egg shaped football (handegg) it changes from insanely difficult to control the ball and only a few highly practised people can really do it, but the amatures are going to have a hard time getting into it.... its kinda why Soccer is the worlds most played sport. is simple to play but has alot of depth to explore and master.
but this is my current problem. thanks for the fun. but this isnt for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944144:date=Jun 17 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Luigi7891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Luigi7891 @ Jun 17 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its just hard.
hugely complex, hugely noob unfriendly, tight, if small, dedicated community) ill wait until someone makes a dumbed down version that i can play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea how this cannot be construed as a troll post because you literally state that you will wait for someone to make a, and I'm quoting you now, "dumbed-down version that [you] can play."
In other words, you seem to be calling yourself stupid. Please correct me if I am wrong.