Alien vision
Skuggan
Join Date: 2010-03-19 Member: 71017Members
Join Date: 2010-03-19 Member: 71017Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Tradeoffs</div>I have a problem with the current alien vision because it has no downside to it.
AV even got buffed in 210 with the ability to see nano shield and medpacks. Altough I like being able to see this things in AV, but there has to be some kind of tradeoff or limitation of using it.
I have a few suggestions that might solve this and I wanna hear your thoughts.
Make AV drain small amounts of adrenaline.
Make AV an upgrade on the shift hive.
Please post your own suggestions aswell.
AV even got buffed in 210 with the ability to see nano shield and medpacks. Altough I like being able to see this things in AV, but there has to be some kind of tradeoff or limitation of using it.
I have a few suggestions that might solve this and I wanna hear your thoughts.
Make AV drain small amounts of adrenaline.
Make AV an upgrade on the shift hive.
Please post your own suggestions aswell.
Comments
I really like the fact you can see particles, hit feedbacks, texture, etc.. that's a big improvement.
I don't like the psychedelic style however, I would much prefer something a bit more subtle.
Doesn't it have a limited range also? I was getting lost on docking because you can't see well the map far away.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119029&view=findpost&p=1944816" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1944816</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1944420:date=Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 18 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No need for tradeoffs!
I really like the fact you can see particles, hit feedbacks, texture, etc.. that's a big improvement.
I don't like the psychedelic style however, I would much prefer something a bit more subtle.
Doesn't it have a limited range also? I was getting lost on docking because you can't see well the map far away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want you could make the alien vision more transparent, enabling you to see more textures etc, and beyond the the range fade limitation, while retaining the clearly contrasted marines etc.
*\natural selection 2\ns2\lua\Alien_Client.lua
Row 461: <b>local darkVisionFadeAmount = 1</b>
Change <b>1</b> to something like <b>0.67</b>, or experiment. 1 is no transparency and 0 is full transparency.
For consistency, make sure you multiply the first parameter of "darkVisionFadeAmount = math.max(, )" with the same value. This code is what fades the alien vision when you turn it off.
darkVisionFadeAmount = math.max( 1 - (Client.GetTime() - self.darkVisionEndTime) / darkVisionFadeTime, 0 )
darkVisionFadeAmount = math.max(<b>0.67 * (</b>1 - (Client.GetTime() - self.darkVisionEndTime) / darkVisionFadeTime<b>)</b>, 0 )
This correction is very subtle in the B210 since the darkVisionFadeTime is set to 0.2 and was higher before the new alien vision, but it is a correct solution. You should definitely correct as said if you plan on introducing the longer fade time again by changing darkVisionFadeTime to a higher value than 0.2.
@Vitdom: Thank you for the hints, but it feels wrong for me to activate hive sight in AV or show textures, when I'm the only one who got this.
Here's how it will go:
<i>We will all disagree.</i>
Because those who like the handicap of AV with no tradeoffs benefit too greatly from it to let it go, these ppl tend to only use AV.
Those who don't need it or want it, dont want to be forced to keep AV on to keep up with the others who have an advantage and dont mind playing in a crayola world. (its beautiful, but some of us like the artwork that the devs made more, not to mention the use of shadows etc)
Sorry to sound like a pessimist but this thread will not reach a consensus / agreement, just as the many others over 2 years failed to. :-/
I get what you are doing, OP, and while i agree with your principle - there will be many who do not, so its best to just lay this one to rest and be happy hivesight isnt in AV. :)
<b>That said</b>, I am actually pretty happy with the current hive sight. The fade-to-black over distance is a really great addition, and you still don't get hive sight. It also looks far nicer than the last version. The fact that you couldn't see nano and flames before didn't feel like an intended drawback, it felt like I was playing a beta and those things weren't working yet (and it seems that that was the case!). The lack of hive sight and the fade over distance feel much more intentional and much more sensible as actual drawbacks.
<b>That said</b>, I am actually pretty happy with the current hive sight. The fade-to-black over distance is a really great addition, and you still don't get hive sight. It also looks far nicer than the last version. The fact that you couldn't see nano and flames before didn't feel like an intended drawback, it felt like I was playing a beta and those things weren't working yet (and it seems that that was the case!). The lack of hive sight and the fade over distance feel much more intentional and much more sensible as actual drawbacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same as why the marines have a flashlight over night-vision goggles (Trade-offs being that you get better vision in the dark, but aliens can now see your light without actually seeing you.) Where's the cone of light that protrudes from the aliens eye-sockets/mouth?
Uh..... Yes. It is. Games are for fun, they aren't productive. If a lot of people find looking at pretty graphics to be part of the fun, then it matters. Games are not purely about gameplay. Developers wouldn't pay artists if they were. If somebody comes up with an "always on" version of alien vision that does not <i>in any way</i> detract from the visual experience, fine, I wouldn't mind that, but I don't think it's possible given what I and some others would consider a detraction. If it detracts from the visual experience in any way, it needs a drawback, for reasons previously stated. To reiterate though, I am content with the current drawbacks.
Says who?
I think it would make more sense to request an alien vision that lets you look at the pretty graphics than to demand it must have a drawback. It's fine to say you don't like the look of it, but why do they need to mess with the gameplay and add in more complex stuff, toggling of vision modes constantly just so that you don't need to have it on. It makes far more sense to just request the alien vision is altered so that it doesn't interfere as much with the visuals.
I bet the main reason for why marines have a flashlight is that they had one in NS1. The NS2 engine just happens to support dynamic lighting.
For me the flashlight and alien vision are simply tools that allow you to see your surroundings a little better. I don't think a trade-off is necessary here.
As for the alien vision vs. hive sight trade-off that some have brought up: Alien vision is most useful in combat situations to track near enemies. Coincidentally this is when hive sight is least important, as you will be focused on the enemy with no time to spin around to analyse the overall game situation. Making them mutually exclusive creates not much of a trade-off, but it forces players into a specific pattern (activate AV when entering combat, deactivate after) for no good reason if they want to maximise the advantages of both sides. I'd prefer to be able to have both on the screen at the same time.
Says me, for reasons stated in the post you originally responded to.
<!--quoteo(post=1945003:date=Jun 19 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 19 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it would make more sense to request an alien vision that lets you look at the pretty graphics than to demand it must have a drawback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944998:date=Jun 19 2012, 04:14 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jun 19 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If somebody comes up with an "always on" version of alien vision that does not <i>in any way</i> detract from the visual experience, fine, I wouldn't mind that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1945003:date=Jun 19 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jun 19 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's fine to say you don't like the look of it, but why do they need to mess with the gameplay and add in more complex stuff, toggling of vision modes constantly just so that you don't need to have it on. It makes far more sense to just request the alien vision is altered so that it doesn't interfere as much with the visuals.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1944998:date=Jun 19 2012, 04:14 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Jun 19 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1944998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but I don't think it's possible given what I and some others would consider a detraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Twilightblue already came up with an AV version that let you see the textures. It sure was not perfect, but a huge improvement to the two-color one. The marines were highlighted enough so they couldn't blend in with textures anymore. I simply can't see the fun in activating / deactivating AV all the time. It's not like: "Wow, what a success! Killing this marine wouldn't have been possible without AV on." It's more like - going into a fight, turning it on and immediately trying to bite, but some cooldown won't let me. I'm constantly fighting the UI while turning AV on and off. It adds frustration and not fun or complex decisions.
I'm all with you, that AV should not create an ugly view of the nice graphics we have in the game. But simple outlines on marines (not even buildings or mines!) would be enough. That would give the aliens a unique view like you know from other scifi movies / games, but subtle and most importantly with textures.
Oh and implementing a trade off just because the feature destroys the nice look of the game, is fixing the symptom. You need to fix the problem. That is what wilson tried to say.
Then you can add a super-artsy activated alien vision with lots of drawbacks for the immersion junkies.
I'm all with you, that AV should not create an ugly view of the nice graphics we have in the game. But simple outlines on marines (not even buildings or mines!) would be enough. That would give the aliens a unique view like you know from other scifi movies / games, but subtle and most importantly with textures.
Oh and implementing a trade off just because the feature destroys the nice look of the game, is fixing the symptom. You need to fix the problem. That is what wilson tried to say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I get where you guys are coming from, but let me point out something very important to this argument. I don't think alien vision was ever intended to benefit combat in well-lit areas. Is the fact that marines blend in with game textures in well-lit areas perhaps the real problem? Why is so much of environment lighting green and blue while fighting green marines?
The whole purpose of alien vision is to help aliens have an edge <i>in the dark.</i> It shouldn't provide anymore advantage in the light than a marine flashlight does, because a visibility boost shouldn't be needed in a well-lit room.
Now I'm going to assume that most of you who play with a-vision on all the time don't also play with your flashlights on 100% of the time when you go marines, simply because it's really only an advantage in the dark (as it should be), and it's not <i>that big</i> of a bother to flip on and off when you're occasionally in the dark. If that's true, wouldn't you also not mind flipping alien vision only as often as you use flashlight as marines? Wouldn't this be the proper solution?
You're playing in a 'dynamic-setting' where AV and flashlights should be toggled to be optimal depending on the scenario.
So if it wasn't in the game, what is 'being melee' the handicap for? I think melee is more fundamental than alien vision.
The whole purpose of alien vision is to help aliens have an edge <i>in the dark.</i> It shouldn't provide anymore advantage in the light than a marine flashlight does, because a visibility boost shouldn't be needed in a well-lit room.
Now I'm going to assume that most of you who play with a-vision on all the time don't also play with your flashlights on 100% of the time when you go marines, simply because it's really only an advantage in the dark (as it should be), and it's not <i>that big</i> of a bother to flip on and off when you're occasionally in the dark. If that's true, wouldn't you also not mind flipping alien vision only as often as you use flashlight as marines? Wouldn't this be the proper solution?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe. It sure wouldn't be so annoying, when you use it only rarely like the flash light.
But I also combine this with the often mentioned problem, that the fights are to chaotic for aliens. You are already handicapped because you only have melee attacks. So you have to avoid long range encounters AND you have to find a way to get near your target to make damage. I'm just thinking, that aliens shouldn't be punished further by making this melee combat more difficult, because you can easy lose track of your target, not to think about noticing how many other marines with what weapons are in this room, while you are attacking one. A marine highlighting is nice to make the fights less chaotic (It's not overpowered!) and more tactical because you can notice more details.
It's just a simple comparison for me. Marines have the advantage over distance and it is also possible to shoot an alien in close quarters, but its more difficult. Aliens have no chance in fighting marines over distance, but should therefor have a huge advantage in close quarters. One of this advantages should be to make it easier to actually see your target and maybe what is also going on in the room.
AV don't has to be only the equivalent of the flashlight. It can be more without breaking balance. It only has to look nice, show textures and don't obscuring the nice textures and stuff.
Also, the flashlight has a much less dramatic effect visually than the alien vision, making rapid toggle less problematic.
But I also combine this with the often mentioned problem, that the fights are to chaotic for aliens. You are already handicapped because you only have melee attacks. So you have to avoid long range encounters AND you have to find a way to get near your target to make damage. I'm just thinking, that aliens shouldn't be punished further by making this melee combat more difficult, because you can easy lose track of your target, not to think about noticing how many other marines with what weapons are in this room, while you are attacking one. A marine highlighting is nice to make the fights less chaotic (It's not overpowered!) and more tactical because you can notice more details.
It's just a simple comparison for me. Marines have the advantage over distance and it is also possible to shoot an alien in close quarters, but its more difficult. Aliens have no chance in fighting marines over distance, but should therefor have a huge advantage in close quarters. One of this advantages should be to make it easier to actually see your target and maybe what is also going on in the room.
AV don't has to be only the equivalent of the flashlight. It can be more without breaking balance. It only has to look nice, show textures and don't obscuring the nice textures and stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True enough. What about highlighting marines temporarily after biting them? The first bite is always the easiest one to get. That would also give you feedback on whether you'd gotten a bite in, and which marine you'd bitten (if there are multiple) thus providing an extra melee advantage compared to a-vision and being minimally intrusive with the game visuals most of the time. The in-world justification could just be an alien getting the "taste" or "scent" of a marine or some such.
<!--quoteo(post=1945518:date=Jun 21 2012, 04:56 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jun 21 2012, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The analogy with flashlight doesn't seem relevant to me, flashlights are objects within the game, and it make sense to toggle on and off a flashlight. Toggling your vision ? doesn't make any sense.
Also, the flashlight has a much less dramatic effect visually than the alien vision, making rapid toggle less problematic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To the first argument: It's not all that hard to justify. My girlfriend had a lazy eye when she was young, and now she can only see out of one eye at a time even though both work. She can consciously switch which she is looking through though. Imagine that the alien is receiving input from both a-vision senses and regular vision at the same time, but is only capable of mentally focusing on one or the other.
To the second argument, I agree, it is a pretty jarring change. I think one or both of the changes I've suggested above to lessen the need for a-vision in well-lit rooms would be nice.