The combination of pheremones and hive sight has the potential to make the aliens feel like they are interacting with the world in a different way. Besides the minimap will prob be a bit useless to aliens moving fast. Much better to follow markers placed on ur hud, ie. damaged structures, parasites, pheremones placed by the com...
New players will always need a big map to work out what the maps look like though.
<!--quoteo(post=1941973:date=Jun 7 2012, 03:32 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 7 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even better, it lets you see through walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you see through the wall behind you? Marines can see things coming up behind them (although for only a very brief time), and that's the big fundamental difference between the minimap and 'other stuff'
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2012
Did you not read my opinion on minimaps above?
Besides, not that it matters, but if i bite the bait, i could say "its more important to marines to see behind them for ambushes and small skulks" while "its more important to skulks to see through walls to plan their attacks while spread out, with their team"..
But i am not going down that path - i am sticking to my opinion above regarding minimaps, <b>especially so, considering i never said aliens aren't meant to have a minimap?</b>
I'm all for racial equality, but do Aliens really need a Minimap?
- You can hear someone walking long before you would see them on a mini-map. - Aliens are often creeping up on Marine, Marines are rarely creeping up on Aliens.
Are you really getting into that many situations where a Marine crouch walks behind you and jumps you by surprise?
Seems to be a 'for the sake of it' change - Can't see a use for it when I play Alien.
I hate to totally rip off AVP.. but it would be neat if mappers could place map entities that showed accessable vents while aliens are in alien vision:
<!--quoteo(post=1941949:date=Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No i mean i get the need for a map, thats why i have the map key pressed continuously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in your past post you say you don't like the idea of a mini map because of the screen realistate and yet the massive non-transparent map that sits righ't in the middle of your screen is okay to have up 'continuously'?
<!--quoteo(post=1941949:date=Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A need to be orientated and a tool in which to do so makes complete sense, and how well does that minimap accomplish this in comparison to the full map? IMO not very well So i still have a hard time seeing why its needed, let alone forced? Being toggleable would make me happy enough, i just am confused the benefit of it from other's eyes, so thanks for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A minimap is an excellent tool for immediate area awareness. I am sure the professional SC2 players would disagree that popup map that blocks vision is better than their minimap as it is the mainstay for map awareness in games like sc2, lol, and pretty much ever single rts out there.
Secondly I never said it should be forced on ppl. Make it an option to have one or not.
I disagree that aliens need minimaps. Permanent minimaps are more of an in-combat UI item, better suited for marines. A minimap which only shows the hallways seems kind of pointless. I like the difference between marines (very HUD-ish) and aliens (teeth, wide open, organic).
I'm also not sure that "I don't know where I'm going" is a convincing reason to change the minimap setups. If you're trying to go someplace, open the real map. I have mine bound to [CAPSLOCK] which makes it easier to maintain movement while using the map. Plus, you will learn the map eventually.
I never use the top-left minimap as marine, I just ignore it completely. If people want one as alien I don't mind if you can disable it (I would like to disable the marine one also).
But I don't think using the minimap is a good way to learn a new map. You will be lost in a new map no matter what. I think the fastest way to learn the map is to explore and to have a good look at it.
I also dont use the minimap, its pretty much not worth looking. While it is important to know whats around you - its equally important to have an overview on whats going on on the other side of the map(beeing only aware of enemys in the small area around you is not enough, to react to anything -> this is not a simple tdm game) - since you can see both by just opening the big map(while it is blocking view, its also bigger and you can process information much quicker => so you open and close it very quickly, also you get a feeling when you can or can not look using the information from the last time and your eyes and ears to watch out close enemys)
It just doesnt feel right if i look in the top corner instead of just looking at the big map. Its too small and doesnt have enough information to be really useful. Maybe if it was a filtered overview of the full map it might be useful... (only really showing team end enemy movement and structures that are beeing attacked, everything else can be filtered out or at least not highlighted much - so you know that there are structures tho details are only visible with the big map or something like that)
<!--quoteo(post=1942236:date=Jun 8 2012, 07:27 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 8 2012, 07:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1942236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also not sure that "I don't know where I'm going" is a convincing reason to change the minimap setups. If you're trying to go someplace, open the real map. I have mine bound to [CAPSLOCK] which makes it easier to maintain movement while using the map. Plus, you will learn the map eventually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am telling you, the biggest reason isn't that at all. Skulk, for example, have to bite and run around a marine. The marine is able to keep himself oriented thus gun pointing at the skulk despite bunny hopping and twirling around because of the minimap. The skulk on the other hand has to manually re-acquire its target with no such assist from hive sight. This is why only one side having a minimap in a game where combat consists of two players jumping around and straffing at close range is imbalancing.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2012
I think the minimap is definitely useful as a marine, combined with a observatory you're able to lock down an area pretty well.
But I don't think minimaps are the way to go for aliens. It would be cool if the infestation or some kind of automatic alien signpost waypointing system could to you whats where and whats going on just from looking around. Almost like the projected objectives in splinter cell: conviction.
I guess what it comes down to is that the Dev's have said over and over that they want to make NS2 more noob friendly and i'll be honest, I am a noob and it's not, it has a very steep curve especially if u enjoy playing aliens. For me the biggest obstacle as a noob is keeping my orientation as an alien. A minimap would be a HUGE help to making this game more noob friendly
Comments
New players will always need a big map to work out what the maps look like though.
Can you see through the wall behind you?
Marines can see things coming up behind them (although for only a very brief time), and that's the big fundamental difference between the minimap and 'other stuff'
Besides, not that it matters, but if i bite the bait, i could say "its more important to marines to see behind them for ambushes and small skulks" while "its more important to skulks to see through walls to plan their attacks while spread out, with their team"..
But i am not going down that path - i am sticking to my opinion above regarding minimaps, <b>especially so, considering i never said aliens aren't meant to have a minimap?</b>
- You can hear someone walking long before you would see them on a mini-map.
- Aliens are often creeping up on Marine, Marines are rarely creeping up on Aliens.
Are you really getting into that many situations where a Marine crouch walks behind you and jumps you by surprise?
Seems to be a 'for the sake of it' change - Can't see a use for it when I play Alien.
<img src="http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7504/ventanim.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I want a mini-map too.
It is huge when you are playing follow the leader on marines.
My hand gets a cramp holding the map key down because it is not obvious what is a dead end until I hit it.
So in your past post you say you don't like the idea of a mini map because of the screen realistate and yet the massive non-transparent map that sits righ't in the middle of your screen is okay to have up 'continuously'?
<!--quoteo(post=1941949:date=Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 6 2012, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1941949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A need to be orientated and a tool in which to do so makes complete sense, and how well does that minimap accomplish this in comparison to the full map? IMO not very well
So i still have a hard time seeing why its needed, let alone forced? Being toggleable would make me happy enough, i just am confused the benefit of it from other's eyes, so thanks for that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A minimap is an excellent tool for immediate area awareness. I am sure the professional SC2 players would disagree that popup map that blocks vision is better than their minimap as it is the mainstay for map awareness in games like sc2, lol, and pretty much ever single rts out there.
Secondly I never said it should be forced on ppl. Make it an option to have one or not.
I'm also not sure that "I don't know where I'm going" is a convincing reason to change the minimap setups. If you're trying to go someplace, open the real map. I have mine bound to [CAPSLOCK] which makes it easier to maintain movement while using the map. Plus, you will learn the map eventually.
But I don't think using the minimap is a good way to learn a new map. You will be lost in a new map no matter what. I think the fastest way to learn the map is to explore and to have a good look at it.
While it is important to know whats around you - its equally important to have an overview on whats going on on the other side of the map(beeing only aware of enemys in the small area around you is not enough, to react to anything -> this is not a simple tdm game) - since you can see both by just opening the big map(while it is blocking view, its also bigger and you can process information much quicker => so you open and close it very quickly, also you get a feeling when you can or can not look using the information from the last time and your eyes and ears to watch out close enemys)
It just doesnt feel right if i look in the top corner instead of just looking at the big map. Its too small and doesnt have enough information to be really useful.
Maybe if it was a filtered overview of the full map it might be useful... (only really showing team end enemy movement and structures that are beeing attacked, everything else can be filtered out or at least not highlighted much - so you know that there are structures tho details are only visible with the big map or something like that)
I am telling you, the biggest reason isn't that at all. Skulk, for example, have to bite and run around a marine. The marine is able to keep himself oriented thus gun pointing at the skulk despite bunny hopping and twirling around because of the minimap. The skulk on the other hand has to manually re-acquire its target with no such assist from hive sight. This is why only one side having a minimap in a game where combat consists of two players jumping around and straffing at close range is imbalancing.
But I don't think minimaps are the way to go for aliens. It would be cool if the infestation or some kind of automatic alien signpost waypointing system could to you whats where and whats going on just from looking around. Almost like the projected objectives in splinter cell: conviction.
Again Minimap for aliens = more noob friendly