Maturing aliens
mickoo
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105914Members
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105914Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Get stronger and bigger with kills/over time</div>Insted of aliens all being at one size/strength how about they mature over time/with kills to become stronger.
Marines 'mature' with armor and weapon upgrades, however aliens are always the same. With every other aspect of the alien team maturing over time to have extra abilities, why not allow alien players to mature.
Kind of like veterency for aliens, it would reward good players with a larger, stronger alien version. You could make say 3 levels of alien, with a visual representation in size to show the levels. Imagine a top level skulk being twice the size of a newborn skulk, or a mature onos, each having extra armor or an extra skill.
This could be the equivalent to marine upgrades done in an asymmetrical way and create some variety in the alien side. Imagine a newborn onos half the size of the current one would not create such fear as a mature onos barreling through a door!
Marines 'mature' with armor and weapon upgrades, however aliens are always the same. With every other aspect of the alien team maturing over time to have extra abilities, why not allow alien players to mature.
Kind of like veterency for aliens, it would reward good players with a larger, stronger alien version. You could make say 3 levels of alien, with a visual representation in size to show the levels. Imagine a top level skulk being twice the size of a newborn skulk, or a mature onos, each having extra armor or an extra skill.
This could be the equivalent to marine upgrades done in an asymmetrical way and create some variety in the alien side. Imagine a newborn onos half the size of the current one would not create such fear as a mature onos barreling through a door!
Comments
That "good player" that was somewhat annoying at the early game is now virtually indestructible on the mid-late game...he can now single handedly carry a losing alien team to victory, reguardless of marines owning 90% res nodes and upgrades..
Not sure if i'd be too keen on this....
It's certainly a concept I can go with, but I would be hesitant on doing away optional investment by the Alien Commander.
There's already a kind of maturity already in-game -- the fact that you're res flow isn't interrupted by dying. That alone gives good players a bit of an advantage over their less adept counterparts. Buffing them even more could have some unfortunate consequences.
If anything, maybe mature hives produce mature eggs. If a player pops out of a mature egg, then they have higher stats?
What about a p-res investment to upgrade to the next level lifeform- linked to the number of hives the team has?
3 hives = ability to evolve to level 3 skulk for a cost. This could make lower lifeforms a bit more useful late game, provide a p-res sink, and create a real sense of loss when say a lvl 3 onos dies.
Each level could cost a fractionof the initial evolve cost, so lvl 3 skulk say 5 res per level= 10 extra res, lvl 3 onos= 75+50+50
Currently all alien res is saved for each separate liveform so someone who loves playing a skulk is forced to evolve to a larger more powerful form later in the game to be able to have any affect. If we could improve individual liveforms we may see a greater range of lifeforms as opposed to all going onos.
You'd have to disable aliens being able to evolve specific traits and have them start stock standard then 'mature' over 'x' time to essentially get the upgrade.
The biggest issue would be balancing a 'fresh' alien not being decimated by marines and then hiding in a vent for 'x' second to 'mature' to having 'mature' aliens not destroy the marines.
It could be done but the amount of balancing required to do this sounds like quite the time sink where the end result if what we already have in game where aliens pop out of the egg then choose what uprade they want.
Edit: Also, being able to get stronger through kills is not the best idea. Keep the game balanced from start to finish with each new addition through the tech tree only expanding ways to win, not how fast you win (hence I don't agree with the flat dmg/armour increase in marine/aliens as it's a boring mechanic).
Sizing up the model (or rather, the collisionbox) can be problematic from a mapping standpoint (with vents, doors etc)
It would be a good incentive for players to develop their skills.
Is it really much different from resources for kills?
Why not mature vs time? So the longer a game goes, the tougher the aliens get, in small numbers of course.
Naturally the best way to counter this is marines have massive superiority (more so, i mean) early game.
This maturing could also stop whilst ou arent alive. so dying would be more so discouraged.
skill based movement & the ability to shoot should be the only 'ability' differentiation in my mind. if you hand the mouse and keyboard over to someone else, the ingame player takes on the skill of that person.
There's already a kind of maturity already in-game -- the fact that you're res flow isn't interrupted by dying. That alone gives good players a bit of an advantage over their less adept counterparts. Buffing them even more could have some unfortunate consequences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, agreed.
One design rule that good game designers follow is avoiding "rich get richer, poor get poorer" mechanics, which this idea seems to violate.
I guess a valid reason for such thoughts is the overwhelming power that early high lifeforms provide, while aliens generally struggle lategame.
So a weaker onos in the earlier minutes of a game wouldnt be able to tear apart a squad of 5 marines, but would still be able to end later stalemates when he 'grew up'.
Consider that the marines are still playing w/o heir most fearsome camping tech, the exo :-)
in ns1, you had acid rocket to counter them..
Ah how many hours have i spent on tanith, perfect last resort-stalemating.. In ns2 there is no effective lategame range resort for such a scenario.
A mature lifeform would have slightly higher health and armour.
Would need, what, 5 hives for all the lifeforms? Not many games are going to get that, so the commander will have to pick carefully what he wants to buff.
Edit: obviously losing the hive, loses the buff.
Last I checked, your res flow is indeed interrupted while you're dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1946523:date=Jun 25 2012, 02:03 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jun 25 2012, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe when a hive matures, you can dedicate it to a lifeform - which will also become mature for all users of this lifeform.
A mature lifeform would have slightly higher health and armour.
Would need, what, 5 hives for all the lifeforms? Not many games are going to get that, so the commander will have to pick carefully what he wants to buff.
Edit: obviously losing the hive, loses the buff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure why they can't just add a mutation chamber. Pay 40 res to upgrade a life form, or possibly unlock stronger versions of each life form through a tree system.
Scout Skulk, Bulldog Skulk, Chemical Warfare Lerk, Sewing Lerk... etc.
So a weaker onos in the earlier minutes of a game wouldnt be able to tear apart a squad of 5 marines, but would still be able to end later stalemates when he 'grew up'.
Consider that the marines are still playing w/o heir most fearsome camping tech, the exo :-)
in ns1, you had acid rocket to counter them..
Ah how many hours have i spent on tanith, perfect last resort-stalemating.. In ns2 there is no effective lategame range resort for such a scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How fitting it would be to have a lifeform's spawn attributes be modified by the number of deaths that lifeform has had. Though, I can't say I've thought much as to the implications yet, so it might be a bad idea. Different scales for each lifeform with diminishing returns, of course.
<!--quoteo(post=1946528:date=Jun 25 2012, 02:16 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jun 25 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Last I checked, your res flow is indeed interrupted while you're dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly what I was saying. There is no need to have a maturity buff, since good players already have an advantage since they don't have their res flow interrupted by dying. Less skilled players, who are dying all the time, are going to have less res than they do.
Or you can play as someone like 'Blaster Master' who will go AFK for most of the game or stay back looming around in owned territory. He/she may be bad as a Skulk, Lerk, or Fade but can still push as an Onos first.
Before you go, 'Now the team has to make up for that one-player.' Not that much if you've seen how bad he really is (Oh and I didn't mention his/her real in-game name, though it may be implied.) :>
Still the maturity buff is something to frown upon. A more sensible approach would be an upgrade that benefits the entire team than that one Alien.
People are already dooming this idea with arguments like "good players will become better" and etc. But how can you say that if none of the mechanics have been worked out yet? In my opinion this sounds like a fun, rewarding idea, that could also help solve the potential unbalance of the forces when exo makes its glorious entrance.
It's an interesting idea that could solve quite a few problems like: Fast onos simply dominating unprepared marines; Earlier lifeforms cant hold out in the later parts; Gives players an incentive not to die so often; Makes rushing marines a much more strategic move than just run in, die, rinse, repeat; Gives a visual feedback on what kind of enemy the marine is facing (unlike marines, who have no visual feedback of their upgrades); Gives a more direct, responsive sense of "evolution" which is what the Khaara are all about, right?
I can just keep on going with what it could make better. In general i find this an awesome idea worth consideration. Sure i'm missing out on a lot of the specifics and the downsides, but as i said, it's not a finished idea, so why not give it a chance to breathe before condemning it?
I suggested that aliens should have to mature into their upgrades over time - that way killing a fade/Onos is more of a game changer in the short-term and you always have a chance to hunt down "adolescent" life-forms before they become too potent.
Charlie was V.positive (and nice) about it but I think unchaining evolutions has solved much of the problems I thought it might solve.
I still love the idea though as you describe it though, and just shows how well UWE do listen.
People are already dooming this idea with arguments like "good players will become better" and etc. But how can you say that if none of the mechanics have been worked out yet? In my opinion this sounds like a fun, rewarding idea, that could also help solve the potential unbalance of the forces when exo makes its glorious entrance.
It's an interesting idea that could solve quite a few problems like: Fast onos simply dominating unprepared marines; Earlier lifeforms cant hold out in the later parts; Gives players an incentive not to die so often; Makes rushing marines a much more strategic move than just run in, die, rinse, repeat; Gives a visual feedback on what kind of enemy the marine is facing (unlike marines, who have no visual feedback of their upgrades); Gives a more direct, responsive sense of "evolution" which is what the Khaara are all about, right?
I can just keep on going with what it could make better. In general i find this an awesome idea worth consideration. Sure i'm missing out on a lot of the specifics and the downsides, but as i said, it's not a finished idea, so why not give it a chance to breathe before condemning it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If anything, I would say giving players more of an incentive not to die is a bad thing. Your incentive not to die is so you can kill more players/structures. Anything much more than that encourages camping. Like a few others have said, I think this type of feature would work better on a team level than an individual level, so that it focuses more on helping the aliens against late-game tech rather than helping individual players who are already good and likely don't need the extra help (or sat afk for 10 minutes).
If the goal is to solve the alien weakness late game I would agree.
Part of the weakness is the aliens have no across the board investments like damage and armor that the marines have.
Late game the marines are not just buying different weapons and jetpacks....their damage output is higher and they are tougher to kill.
It is definitely a tough nut to crack.
The premise that was discussed was: Make a well performing player stronger.
For those that played Combat back in the day will know the idea can quickly get out of hand if someone racks up the early kills. They get access to the upgrades quicker and end up decimating the opposition and winning the game in a short amount of time.
Making a well performing player (ignore the fact that there are several different definitions of a well performing player in a team game) stronger will only tip the balance to one side when the entire foundation of this game is about balancing how the two sides interact with one another.
A well performing player isn't just someone with high kills, but it is one of the easiest things to see via scoreboard.
Please let us move away from certain mainstream games where the more kills you get the stronger rewards you unlock to use on the opposition. Please keep the Starcraft mentality where the game, units, technology paths are as balanced as possible from start to finish where the reason you win is because you out performed the enemy and not because you brute forced your way to victory.
Edit: The exo suit won't be the 'I Win' button as Team Flayra do balance different features of the game.
Ooooh!
As for the OP's idea, if you want to see how it works out you can take a gander at the Eyelander in TF2. It's a really bad mechanic!
Would feel a bit DotA2 / DoW2 though...
But you very well know that if you camp, that means the other team controls the map, gets all the res and will annihilate you in matter of minutes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making a well performing player (ignore the fact that there are several different definitions of a well performing player in a team game) stronger will only tip the balance to one side when the entire foundation of this game is about balancing how the two sides interact with one another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, how do you know how the mechanics will work? But yeah, of course that's an issue to look into. But that doesn't mean that the starting skulk is as strong as it is now. It could be a weaker skulk growing into the current skulk and past it becoming a bit more enduring for example. We're not talking here skulks the size of onos running around the map vortexing people.
I'm just saying that it's a nice idea, if not for buffing aliens, than just for the visuals. I find the lack of visual feedback regarding upgrades (which are essential in NS2) very unsatisfying.
As already said the "Good player" at the start of the game will become unstoppable late game and can carry an entire losing alien team to victory (trust me, this idea is by no means far fetched.)
Now lets say a single level of maturity that unlocks the third ability for an alien
Like
Lerk Mature: Umbra
Skulk Mature: Xenocide
Fade Mature: Vortex
Gorge Mature: Maybe 10 more clogs?
Onos Mature: Charge (i would say stomp, but this is one of those abilities that is required for an onos to be fully effective, and as such should be left for research)
These would be much much MUCH better choices to reward the player rather than more HP and Armor. It rewards the players who can stay alive with abilities that are very specialized and would not break the game if they did not exist in the first place nor would it give the player a flat out advantage over another like more HP and armor would.
My food for thought