Combat vs economy
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Keep it civil</div>In the last couple builds I have mostly only played the alien commander and regular marine foot soldier.
I have watched a few competitive games and have decided that the combat between both factions seems to be pretty balanced currently (Aside from 30 second leap). The marines can dominate alien lifeforms using teamwork or even excellent solo tactics. The combat is coming along but I'm afraid the 2 factions economies are out of whack.
I have observed that marines can outfrag the kharra and even hold more RT's than them (using nano construct early) and even after killing multiple harvesters it puts no dent in the aliens overall game. Leap allows aliens to get around the map insanely fast to pressure <b>multiple</b> marines res nodes. They will have no problem taking these down as they will spread out the marines and also more than likely dominate them with leap and carapace.
One way to help this problem could be to slightly increase the marines movement and sprint speed to help them protect res towers in their territory. Marines sprint is already negated by infestation (Which spreads geniusly fast). So why not let marines have a speed boost in their own territory to help balance early game skulk movement? Once marines get jetpacks and phase gates (Extremely expensive) the running speed will be negligible due to higher lifeform presence and the fact that you will spend most of your time in the air with jetpacks....
Eventually the aliens will get carapace and leap and this allows the aliens to do massive damage to the marines economy before slowly pushing them back into their base. Theres not much the marines can do since their overall power comes from res and economy even more so than the aliens. Since the aliens rely mostly on <i>abilities</i> over redundant upgrades and they can afford to lose harvesters much more than the marines can.
In build 206 the aliens had a much larger responsibility to take care of their res flow and economy and this gave the marines a fighting chance to tech up and consequently slow down the alien progression. I think one of the main problems is that marines rely on medpacks and jetpacks and weapons to keep their economy up (Which costs them their economy). The aliens don't need to do this quite as much. The problem then stems with late game tech where marines have the advantage. This part of the game needs balancing where the early game needs balance as well. If you make the game more balanced early game for marines it will give them an advantage late game. I am sure the developers can think of a smart solution to help balance this.
In build 206 the harvesters had a long build time and a low amount of health. The aliens also had less money to spend on economy (Due to <b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->inflation<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>) right off the bat which make the aliens have to play on the defense as equally as they applied pressure. Now aliens have 0 responsibility to protect res... and the alien comm can simply spam spikes in hallways forever, keeping the marines out of territory. The amount of res and cooldown on spikes is a bit rediculous at the moment.
The problem with the game at the moment is cyst spam and map control (<u>once again</u>). I thought we were past this non-sense and were well on our way to balancing the game... now aliens are super heroes again... and they have been since build 206.
Bear in mind many games were won on marines in build 206... once build 207 came around the aliens economy experienced <b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->deflation<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> (Cheaper everything) and buffed harvester health. Marines got slaughtered due to this miniscule change.
The exosuit will not be the answer to balance as it will be a late game tech that relies on early game economy... Please read and consider these thoughts.
I have watched a few competitive games and have decided that the combat between both factions seems to be pretty balanced currently (Aside from 30 second leap). The marines can dominate alien lifeforms using teamwork or even excellent solo tactics. The combat is coming along but I'm afraid the 2 factions economies are out of whack.
I have observed that marines can outfrag the kharra and even hold more RT's than them (using nano construct early) and even after killing multiple harvesters it puts no dent in the aliens overall game. Leap allows aliens to get around the map insanely fast to pressure <b>multiple</b> marines res nodes. They will have no problem taking these down as they will spread out the marines and also more than likely dominate them with leap and carapace.
One way to help this problem could be to slightly increase the marines movement and sprint speed to help them protect res towers in their territory. Marines sprint is already negated by infestation (Which spreads geniusly fast). So why not let marines have a speed boost in their own territory to help balance early game skulk movement? Once marines get jetpacks and phase gates (Extremely expensive) the running speed will be negligible due to higher lifeform presence and the fact that you will spend most of your time in the air with jetpacks....
Eventually the aliens will get carapace and leap and this allows the aliens to do massive damage to the marines economy before slowly pushing them back into their base. Theres not much the marines can do since their overall power comes from res and economy even more so than the aliens. Since the aliens rely mostly on <i>abilities</i> over redundant upgrades and they can afford to lose harvesters much more than the marines can.
In build 206 the aliens had a much larger responsibility to take care of their res flow and economy and this gave the marines a fighting chance to tech up and consequently slow down the alien progression. I think one of the main problems is that marines rely on medpacks and jetpacks and weapons to keep their economy up (Which costs them their economy). The aliens don't need to do this quite as much. The problem then stems with late game tech where marines have the advantage. This part of the game needs balancing where the early game needs balance as well. If you make the game more balanced early game for marines it will give them an advantage late game. I am sure the developers can think of a smart solution to help balance this.
In build 206 the harvesters had a long build time and a low amount of health. The aliens also had less money to spend on economy (Due to <b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->inflation<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>) right off the bat which make the aliens have to play on the defense as equally as they applied pressure. Now aliens have 0 responsibility to protect res... and the alien comm can simply spam spikes in hallways forever, keeping the marines out of territory. The amount of res and cooldown on spikes is a bit rediculous at the moment.
The problem with the game at the moment is cyst spam and map control (<u>once again</u>). I thought we were past this non-sense and were well on our way to balancing the game... now aliens are super heroes again... and they have been since build 206.
Bear in mind many games were won on marines in build 206... once build 207 came around the aliens economy experienced <b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->deflation<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> (Cheaper everything) and buffed harvester health. Marines got slaughtered due to this miniscule change.
The exosuit will not be the answer to balance as it will be a late game tech that relies on early game economy... Please read and consider these thoughts.
Comments
One of the first things that comes to mind as to how to protect this is the option to electrify buildings or power nodes, a la NS1 style. But this would also put a pretty heavy dent in the Marine economy.
What if the marine comm had the ability to electrify selected buildings using an ability similar to nano shield, except it would damage nearby Kharra for a short time? It would give the marines the ability to defend their res much more easily.
One of the first things that comes to mind as to how to protect this is the option to electrify buildings or power nodes, a la NS1 style. But this would also put a pretty heavy dent in the Marine economy.
What if the marine comm had the ability to electrify selected buildings using an ability similar to nano shield, except it would damage nearby Kharra for a short time? It would give the marines the ability to defend their res much more easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be ability that doesnt bring killing blows, but just gets you enought time to come back to defend your RT before its sniped by skulk squad in the early game.
In the late game it should lose its effectiveness. In the other words against higher lifeforms it does kinda nothing.
Marines can lose a res tower and thanks to nanoconstruct have it back up in a second.
Aliens can lose a harvester, but the damage to their economy is much stronger since it takes a long time for it to be built. And worse still, in that time marines find them and kill them. As an alien commander I end up being very conservative where I start building. Marines suicide running your buildings can push alien tech back significantly.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that alien harvester die far quicker than marine ones. Skulks only drop power nodes well because they can move around the map quickly.
-Remove infestation slowdown, which was not even meant to be in this build(some old code got mixed up in the patch) according to <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119212&view=findpost&p=1948053" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1948053</a> this post.
-Bring back alien wall jump to what it was in build 206, if i remember right, so their movement won't be so freaking bad without a leap(aliens need to _have_ some kind of skill based movement thingy that will make them faster and more agile).
-Reduce cyst hp, A LOT, (topic here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119208" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=119208</a> ).
-And last but not least bring down the carapase what it used to be: skulks will have 70/30 hp/armor with it and lerk 100 armor is just ridiculous.
With those changes the game should get a lot more balanced, or at least it would be a step towards the right path.
I do not agree with this. Until power nodes cost t.res to install and replace, I'm completely against cysts being easier to kill. Alien harvesters in actuality cost more, 15-17 t.res, due to cysts while Marine extractors are just plop and drop at 10 t.res with no extra t.res requirements.
Edit: Said p.res instead of t.res.
Aliens have it way too easy, and the alien comm can spend money like a bipolar person in their manic stage....
Marines have to be extremely careful with how they spend res... and aliens basically get free income... and can spend it wastefully with almost 0 repercussions...
These topics have been brought up countless times... and it's <i><b>clearly</b></i> imbalanced... so why UWE doesn't listen to the community / playtesters is beyond me. Either they have some tricks up their sleeves that we all have to wait for... or they are making this up as they go along...
Edit: Said p.res instead of t.res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure have you even played the game. If one tres costing structure takes 5seconds to kill with an axe or one and half rifle clip when they are fully matured then they are way too tough. Cysts and infestation isn't made to be a static thing on the map, what it with the current cyst hp is, they are meant to be deniable and literally not something that stays there forever when you put it in there; aliens just get their creep of the hook way too easily without any real loss at the moment; you won't ###### your pants if you lose couple cysts, so actions really need to be taken here.
Have had marines beat me back to the middle of the map as a skulk with leap to where we were just fighting. thats messed up.
Have had marines beat me back to the middle of the map as a skulk with leap to where we were just fighting. thats messed up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines only have to wait 6 seconds to respawn... and aliens have to wait up to 20 (Or more seconds). This is why he beat you back to crossroads.
But even with wave spawning aliens still have superior mobility (Especially when using coordinated pushes / ambushes). Once you experience higher levels of skilled players in the same server you will see that aliens have a distinct advantage in speed and map control.
Aliens can simply do more with less. This is a <i>problem</i> more than it is asymmetric.
Read my post again.
Cysts = t.res
Power Nodes = free
Cysts take 5 seconds to kill with an axe.
Power node takes 4-5 times as long to destroy.
Cysts are deniable, kill them before they mature. Only takes half a second to axe a newborn cyst.
I agree actions need to be taken here, Power nodes need to cost 5 t.res.
One bad feature is hardly an excuse for adding more. The problem with the wave spawn is that it skips waves, for example: if you die and theres 4 sec left till the next wave spawns it will skip that wave and spawn you on the next one.
Perhaps nerf leaps map mobility (for example make it impossible to chain jumps after leaping without loosing much of your speed). As it is it makes celerity thoroughly obsolete (even with the latest build, which did not actually change celerity's mechanics but just the values).
Cysts = t.res
Power Nodes = free
Cysts take 5 seconds to kill with an axe.
Power node takes 4-5 times as long to destroy.
Cysts are deniable, kill them before they mature. Only takes half a second to axe a newborn cyst.
I agree actions need to be taken here, Power nodes need to cost 5 t.res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is power node even a problem? If the room has a power node it doesn't bother alien even for a little; marine commander can't drop pg there that'll grow up eventually and get up after a while. You aren't really event meant to kill power nodes as aliens, unless you have ###### loads of free time in your hand, like e.g. in the late game.
And yes killing cysts that have been staying there one second is easy to kill but when one has been staying there even for a 10seconds it gets to that point where you need almost one clip and 5 seconds with an axe and that's just a really big deal and I can't see how you don't somehow understand this.
Power nodes costing 5res shouldn't really add anything to the game but if they want to put a price tag on that I don't really mind, it isn't the problem here but it won't really change the game even a little; no sane person in a good game won't even touch them because they are just not a threat at all like cysts are for marines; you can't gain map control with power nodes like aliens can with cyst.
Cysts = t.res
Power Nodes = free
Cysts take 5 seconds to kill with an axe.
Power node takes 4-5 times as long to destroy.
Cysts are deniable, kill them before they mature. Only takes half a second to axe a newborn cyst.
I agree actions need to be taken here, Power nodes need to cost 5 t.res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, no. Cysts are deniable if you have multiple marines shooting/axing them faster than the alien comm can spam them, and then one skulk is just going to kill you because you dont have ammo/was crouching over a cyst with your axe out. The next time you go into the area youll notice it has been swarmed by whips, shades and crags.
The cysts require way too much attention from the marines, when the aliens can completely ignore the powernodes. I dont remember having any problem placing rt at my closest node even if power was on. I dont remember the marine commander spawning endless armies of turrets at my close rt/base without someone having to build them and the powernode.
Power node takes 4-5 times longer to destroy, sure. But it also disables any building in that area. However it doesnt need to be destroyed, infact most of the time its just useless to do so. Building powernode also requires more than just one click from the commander.
Kill 4-5 cysts and the infestation starts to slowly die until the alien comm spams 15 more cysts and theres nothing you can do about it. In this case they have to all be destroyed, or you cant build there, which especially at your closest res nodes completely ###### up any marine play.
Afterall, they both are just limiting the gameplay. The powernode has so miniscule impact other than limiting marine tactics un-necessarily that it should just be cut from the game. The cysts are only required so that the alien comm cant instantly spam structures everywhere all by him/herself, but need infestation first. One way to lose the requirement would be to require a gorge to build the commander dropped structures instead of them growing on their own, but that would make alien comm even more boring/useless. Or require drifters to be used for all building again. Honestly though, it should just be the gorge dropping all the structures and the infestation just growing from them and then connecting to other structures.
But i guess we all know thats not going to happen.
Marines can lose a res tower and thanks to nanoconstruct have it back up in a second.
Aliens can lose a harvester, but the damage to their economy is much stronger since it takes a long time for it to be built. And worse still, in that time marines find them and kill them. As an alien commander I end up being very conservative where I start building. Marines suicide running your buildings can push alien tech back significantly.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that alien harvester die far quicker than marine ones. Skulks only drop power nodes well because they can move around the map quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a problem with nanoconstruct. Just an unnecessary addition to the game that causes problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1948331:date=Jul 2 2012, 04:18 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 2 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948331"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, you are aware of this feature called wave spawning? It's this little thing that makes you have to wait up to 20 seconds before spawning... and on marines it's only 6. :-/ Be more attentive next time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ADHd your attitute is a joke. After the please play nice ###### you came up with in the last thread and the "keep it civil" subtext on this one, you post something like that?
I am sure Codeine is a great gamer and a good guy... but that won't keep me from pointing out the blatantly obvious. It's actually helping him by showing him the game as a deeper whole.