ARC trains
_Necro_
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">a simple solution</div><u>The Problem:</u>
<ul><li>ARC trains are ugly (clipping etc.) and disrupt the immersion.</li><li>They are overpowered, because aliens need to long to kill every single ARC.</li><li>They detach the com from the other marine players. There is no need to cover them if you have enough of em.</li><li>It's no fun (for both teams) when the hive is down in 20sec by a train of ARCs.</li></ul>
<u>The Solution:</u>
<ul><li>hard cap at 1 ARC per CC</li><li><strike>increase</strike> adjust the cost of the ARC <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->(to make it viable in mid-game)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>slow down the movement speed</li><li>add upgrades in the robot factory for increased firing speed (=more DPS) and movement speed</li><li>the ARC needs to be deployed by one marine to be able to fire</li></ul>
<u>Why?</u>
Because there is no need to have an unlimited amount of ARCs. It disturbs the balance. If you balance (damage, health, etc.) for 1 ARC, many ARCs will be overpowered. If you balance for many ARCs, 1 ARC will be underpowered. There is not a single advantage in having the possibility to produce an unlimited amount of ARCs.
1 ARC is vulnerable and easy counter-able by the aliens if not defended. So it creates an incentive for marines to move as a group and introduces not only a escort mission but also the old NS1 feeling of sieging a hive, because you can balance the amount of shots one ARC needs to destroy a hive. This way the siege does not end 20sec after deploying the ARCs but will go on for much longer, giving the aliens time to react and the marines the old feeling of siege-bases.
If marines have already map control they also can have more than one ARC, leading to a faster victory of an already won game.
We don't need late game resource-dumps anymore, with the balanced economy and med, ammo, nano on tRes. Also: it is worse to have a resource dump that creates ARC trains, than to have no resource-dump at all.
And lastly it looks and feels way cooler to cover this one or two ARCs instead of lagging through an ugly, constantly clipping ARC train.
PS. Please come up with more than "but hard caps are bad". There is really no need for unlimited ARCs and they are only bad for balance, gameplay and visuals / immersion.
<ul><li>ARC trains are ugly (clipping etc.) and disrupt the immersion.</li><li>They are overpowered, because aliens need to long to kill every single ARC.</li><li>They detach the com from the other marine players. There is no need to cover them if you have enough of em.</li><li>It's no fun (for both teams) when the hive is down in 20sec by a train of ARCs.</li></ul>
<u>The Solution:</u>
<ul><li>hard cap at 1 ARC per CC</li><li><strike>increase</strike> adjust the cost of the ARC <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->(to make it viable in mid-game)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></li><li>slow down the movement speed</li><li>add upgrades in the robot factory for increased firing speed (=more DPS) and movement speed</li><li>the ARC needs to be deployed by one marine to be able to fire</li></ul>
<u>Why?</u>
Because there is no need to have an unlimited amount of ARCs. It disturbs the balance. If you balance (damage, health, etc.) for 1 ARC, many ARCs will be overpowered. If you balance for many ARCs, 1 ARC will be underpowered. There is not a single advantage in having the possibility to produce an unlimited amount of ARCs.
1 ARC is vulnerable and easy counter-able by the aliens if not defended. So it creates an incentive for marines to move as a group and introduces not only a escort mission but also the old NS1 feeling of sieging a hive, because you can balance the amount of shots one ARC needs to destroy a hive. This way the siege does not end 20sec after deploying the ARCs but will go on for much longer, giving the aliens time to react and the marines the old feeling of siege-bases.
If marines have already map control they also can have more than one ARC, leading to a faster victory of an already won game.
We don't need late game resource-dumps anymore, with the balanced economy and med, ammo, nano on tRes. Also: it is worse to have a resource dump that creates ARC trains, than to have no resource-dump at all.
And lastly it looks and feels way cooler to cover this one or two ARCs instead of lagging through an ugly, constantly clipping ARC train.
PS. Please come up with more than "but hard caps are bad". There is really no need for unlimited ARCs and they are only bad for balance, gameplay and visuals / immersion.
Comments
Spotting is important, if you never look into the marine base and then flame about how there suddenly is an arc train in your hive - your team failed.
You need to scout the marine base every now and then so you will have LOTS of time dealing with them when the arcs are comming.
You got plenty plenty time to build stuff to hold them up - research bilebomb, make a forward clog hydra wall, maybe some whips -> by doing this you hold up marines, they wont be able to just rush by those structures - they need to deal with them AND your team => if you place this stuff correctly, you can hold up marines a very long time... which means you got plenty of opportunities to either kill them and then the arcs, or make a split attack - a group of aliens holding the arc train up while another attacks their mainbase. (i cant count anymore how many times we wont as aliens by doing this)
Big arc trains never happen in games with equal teams - if it happens you deserve it. (means you didnt keep marines low on rts, you basically wasted your time - making picknicks somewhere on the map)
I can tell you - you will be more unhappy with a single super arc than with a group of weaker ones... the super arc will need to be so strong that basically every alien structure except hives and maybe rts will die in 1 single hit.
This means a good marine squad only needs to kill maybe 2-3 waves of aliens until its in position to shoot.
Maybe arcs are still a tiny bit too cheap, or a tiny bit too strong - but they are not as broken as you might you see it, and i dont see any benefit in changing it they way you suggested it.
PS: 20s arc trains, please...
A solution would be to limit arcs to 1 per Robotics Facility, for instance. That way the comm can have more than one, but does have to invest resources.
Arc HP and damage will have to be tweaked in order for this to work.
In the end, I completely agree that the same 'siege feeling' from NS1 should be brought back. A lot of pressure on the aliens, but no instant-death situations like arc trains used to cause.
Please read my post before answering. The balance-issue that are caused by an ARC train are just a tiny aspect of the whole. The balance-problem with ARc trains may be solvable but the ugly clipping etc. will remain. So why not making the mechanic fun at first and balance than?
<!--quoteo(post=1948383:date=Jul 2 2012, 04:41 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can tell you - you will be more unhappy with a single super arc than with a group of weaker ones... the super arc will need to be so strong that basically every alien structure except hives and maybe rts will die in 1 single hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but this is just not true. It is intentional, that the hive does NOT die in a few seconds. As I have written, (please read it, really) the old NS1 feeling of sieging a hive can only be achieved by extending the time a siege needs to kill a hive. So you have to actually defend the ARC and give the aliens more time to counter it. It will be no problem to balance the ARC after this change. Like Angelusz said, it probably will need more health.
So don't try to balance this one ARC with the broken balance of an ARC train that smashes an hive in 20sec. (Btw. this is the time they need to destroy one after deploying. Not with building time.)
Edit: Oh and you missed to bring up one argument, why a cap would be bad.
They've already been rebalanced to reduce this effect. I still feel like it would be much cooler if marines had 1~3 arcs driving around, instead of 20. Aesthetics are important as well, y'know! ;)
- ns2 has a big amount of defensive structures that you didnt see in that amount in ns1, economy is different and there are cysts - so building a base near a hive area is usually impossible to do secretly. (since you need to get rid of cysts => red flashy lights on the map)
This also means that you can easily build defensive lines before an arc rush is coming... (if you dont feel confident enough that your team can deal with it in any other way)
- Even if 20s were true, you miss the construction time, and that you need to guard them to the hive - in some situations that means across the WHOLE MAP.
Why would it need a cap? Early mid game it would mean you will sacrifice other tech for it, it is pretty much an all in move at this point - the only time where this isnt true anymore is in public super endgame scenarios were alien teams dont manage to do anything productive anymore.
edit: marines never have 20 arcs in real games, with ppl that have proper understanding of the game - not semi afk building a tower in a ghosttown corner of the map.
edit2: increasing the arc cost will limit its use, so <u>you reduce strategical options</u> - it is already more or less an all in move if you try to go for arcs early to midgame - this idea here will ensure that thats not a possibility anymore - it will be way too risky and expensive, so its better to go a saver way => jps,exo, phasegates. Arcs will basically be super endgame only.
Whips are not really useful for defending against whips. They may take two/three hits from a whip then they're past the whip.
NS2 has "siege rooms" not for every hive on every map. but they are there. Also just relying on the ability that it can shoot through walls is boring. Maybe sometimes you have to move closer to the hive to siege it but while the arc destroys the hive you can focus on destroying eggs and killing the players.
And so what if you have to guard the arc. The arc isn't supposed to be a super weapon which will offer easy win. Also it doesn't necessarily mean that the arc has to be expensive. You could the aliens destroy it on purpose and build another one on the other side of the map.
Why implementing a cap? Fighting around a arc train is no fun, neither for the aliens or the marines.
I also think that reducing the number of non player characters is a good thing to do.
I'm all for the one super arc per CC! (maybe TF)
Erm... what? There are plenty of rooms from where you can siege a hive without the need of an ARC standing in the same room as the hive.
Btw. not an argument against a cap.
<!--quoteo(post=1948393:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- ns2 has a big amount of defensive structures that you didnt see in that amount in ns1, economy is different and there are cysts - so building a base near a hive area is usually impossible to do secretly. (since you need to get rid of cysts => red flashy lights on the map)
This also means that you can easily build defensive lines before an arc rush is coming... (if you dont feel confident enough that your team can deal with it in any other way)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has this to do with the main post? You don't need to clear the cysts to deploy the ARC. The whole idea of my post is, to bring back the old feeling of NS1 sieges combined with the new things like the ARC. An ARC also can destroy any static defense you could build in the way of the ARC, so I don't get this point either.
<!--quoteo(post=1948393:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Even if 20s were true, you miss the construction time, and that you need to guard them to the hive - in some situations that means across the WHOLE MAP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are only talking about the balance of the ARCs right now and are blind for the real problems with the mechanic of ARC trains. The ugliness, the clipping, etc. I will write it again: The balance is not the real problem. It is the game mechanic itself. Only on top of this comes the fact, that balancing a capped amount of ARCs is easier than balancing an infinite amount. But this is not the problem in the first place. Mhkay?
<!--quoteo(post=1948393:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would it need a cap? Early mid game it would mean you will sacrifice other tech for it, it is pretty much an all in move at this point - the only time where this isnt true anymore is in public super endgame scenarios were alien teams dont manage to do anything productive anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again: The answer is, because it is ugly and a bad game mechanic. And we don't lose anything when capping them to the amount of CCs. But this can all be read in the main post.
I agree with you, when you say that the trains will now only happen in uncoordinated and lengthy pub games. But things like this are just wrong:
<!--quoteo(post=1948393:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Big arc trains never happen in games with equal teams - if it happens you deserve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just NO. If your team has less skill then the enemy team it does in no way justify that you have to endure an ugly game mechanic. This is just wrong and bad game design.
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Edit for edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1948393:date=Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jul 2 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit2: increasing the arc cost will limit its use, so you reduce strategical options - it is already more or less an all in move if you try to go for arcs early to midgame - this idea here will ensure that thats not a possibility anymore - it will be way too risky and expensive, so its better to go a saver way => jps,exo, phasegates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is only because of a band-aid balance fix. They are so costly so you are stopped from spaming them.
If they are capped we can balance the costs very easy, so they may be viable in mid-game again.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
PS: @"what has this to do with the post"... can you remember how sieging worked in ns1? It certainly wasnt, building just a ninja tf + siege... you usually required a phasegate, maybe mines, maybe sentrys - thats something you ALSO usually require in games where the alien team is not asleep in ns2... you just havent expirienced it on public yet.
=> dealing with those structures additionally increases the time windows for aliens to eliminate the train. (ever counted how long it takes until infestation fades away? - especially if the alien comm spamms cysts at this place?)
edit: also dont forget the new crazy op alien spikes, that can stop an arc train in certain corridors every 5s for ~10s.
=> dealing with those structures additionally increases the time windows for aliens to eliminate the train.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that is why I don't suggest an Uber-ARC. The time you needed in NS1 building an Siege-Outpost will now be the time the ARC fires at the hive. It will take awhile.
And yes, map layout is very important to facilitate this. I'm confident that it's very much possible to create such a scenario at this point, if arc trains (arc spam) becomes inviable, or preferably impossible.
In organized play they already are an all in if done before 15 mins, since you have to sacrifice alot for them. Trust me, we know alot about cheesy arc all ins. Making it so you have 1 uber arc will just make the all in too powerful.
Oh and a band-aid-fix was to increase the costs of the ARCs making them to an all-in-strategy you see only rarely. A band-aid-fix was to add splash-self-damage. Capping them is not a bandaid-fix. It fixes the root of the problem: ARC trains are not needed and not desired. So why not banning them directly by capping the number to the amount of CCs?
Can't you imagine that with this cap they may even become a viable tactic and a fun mechanic in comp-games instead of carving out a miserable existence as an rarely used all-in tactic?
In organized play they already are an all in if done before 15 mins, since you have to sacrifice alot for them. Trust me, we know alot about cheesy arc all ins. Making it so you have 1 uber arc will just make the all in too powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't change the fact that it's hard to balance a train and that a train looks crappy and brings a lot of other problems with it.
Maybe have the actual recharging process be dependent on the marine interaction key? Like reloading a new shell.
At least if the values are adjusted so that those fewer arcs are less susceptible to a rush and are somehow dependent on marines (perhaps in ways other than defence).
I believe that's what annoys me more than anything as an alien player, ARCs are very much a "right click to win" method from a single player with AI controlled aiming, meaning there is much easier co-ordination involved, against what the Aliens have to do to accomplish the same thing. It's pretty silly when the arc train almost literally survives without marine support purely because you can't chomp at them faster than they can take down a base, or that your team is simply the wrong army composition to remove them fast enough. And that marine team can be taking down another one of your hives, basically because with a ton of ARCs on the field, the marine team's army size has effectively increased 10-fold.
I don't agree with capping and making arcs unbelievably expensive - you have to bare in mind, RTS games that go on will get to a point where your resources start overflowing and you can't spend fast enough, even in SC2, especially in a game like NS2 where your only sinks are keeping marines alive, turrets and arcs. I never understood the splash damage implementation, as a marine comm, that's changed absolutely nothing for me when I've used them (mind you, I wait until I have exhausted all other options before moving on to arcs to finish a game - even then, I limit them to about 4-5 per squad, and that's around the 25 - 30 min mark).
However, I have no solution, but I just wanted to make this point (AI controlled endgame additional units Vs Human-team controlled endgame units) for discussion's sake.
Edit:
Just to add to what Khyron said below - yeah, ARC trains are less common and there are other balance issues to look at, but I would say that commanders who give a ###### about his/her players will end up getting fewer ARCs in the late game. It kind of brings about the point that good Marine Commanders might end up being punished for it - again, playing as an alien, we've had map dominance but can't fight the last fight in their base due to relatively fast JP's and Turret spam because the Marine Commander wasn't so fussed in maintaining his units, but ends up winning due to Aliens wasting lifeforms on trying to siege the final base, massing arcs into the 20s/30s and just facerolling the keyboard.
Maybe another point to look at is that there is no such thing as "starving" a team out in this game. Maybe Aliens need to learn to get their lifeforms ready and wait until they have the res to instantly re-evolve when they respawn after death. I just don't know.
I commanded for marines on summit tonight in what I would call a very balanced pub game. It was a long game, we played for quite a while after completing all research. The teams stayed balanced throughout, and each side had roughly half the map for most of the game. In total I built 7 or 8 ARCs but only ever had 3 in a group at once. From my point of view we felt streched for tRes right until the end.
To be fair, I did spend a lot of tRes on scans, shields, medpacks and becons. Maybe that was the difference. Althought if you're concerned about a team that spends all its tRes on ARCs, well I'd say they're going for a higher risk/reward game because the lack of assists should translate to an alien combat advantage.
So in summary I'm not sure how marines could get an ARC train together without either a) superior map control or b) thrifty spending.
Keep in mind I was pretty vocal about ARC trains being a problem in earlier builds. I'll admit that I'd like to play a few more games before I'm truely convinced the problem is resolved, but either way it's clear that in b212 there are bigger balance issues than ARC trains.
<!--quoteo(post=1948416:date=Jul 2 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jul 2 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't agree with capping and making arcs unbelievably expensive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't need to be expensive. If the number is capped they are already balanced to a good point. One single ARC can be easily taken down if undefended. So why should they make them expensive? The high costs of ARCs right now is just a fix for the trains. With a hard cap you can lower the costs. Making them viable in mid game.
@Khyron: Yes, the high costs and balance tweaks to the income system have lessen the appearance of trains. But even 3 ARCs together are looking ugly and clipping all the time. Also, the high costs have made them to a very-lategame-tech. It don't has to be this way. With a cap per CC they could be viable in mid game again.
<!--quoteo(post=1948374:date=Jul 3 2012, 12:13 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 3 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ol type='1'><li>ARC trains are ugly (clipping etc.) and disrupt the immersion.</li><li>They are overpowered, because aliens need to long to kill every single ARC.</li><li>They detach the com from the other marine players. There is no need to cover them if you have enough of em.</li><li>It's no fun (for both teams) when the hive is down in 20sec by a train of ARCs.</li></ol><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>While I agree, there are certainly loads of other graphical problems that need attention. I don't think it's a good idea to mix graphical glitches in game balance discussions.
</li><li>It's true that more ARCs are geometrically more poweful, each additional ARC can keep firing for longer because of the HP buffer created by the earlier ones (except for AOE damage from bile bomb). But I don't think that inherently makes them overpowered. At some price point you wouldn't build them in the mid-game. Sure, in the late game with marines pushing towards victory it's possible to have such an income that marines would always spend excess res on them no matter how ineffective or expensive they are. You could argue that's a problem, that there are no other late game money sinks.
</li><li>I think this point is more theoretical than practical. I don't think the current build really has this as a problem unless the alien team has been utterly negligent, in which case there's no point trying to address balanced.
</li><li>Ok, this is a good point. Obviously once marines have total map control we agree that aliens should lose by design. What a few people in this thread seem to be dissatisfied with is that an NPC unit is seen to be responsible for the killing blow. Of course, the reality is that aliens lost not because of the ARCs but because they lost the mid game map control, but let's put that aside. I gather you would prefer that the player characters are more directly involved with the final moments of the game. I'm fine with that, so long as any alternative doesn't lead to drawn out stalemates like we sometimes see in the marine-losing scenario.</li></ol>Here are a couple of suggestions to that end:
<ul><li>Prevent an ARC firing on a target that's already being fired upon by another ARC: 1 ARC per alien building. To do this I think you also need to change ARCs to a DoT model because it will make apparent which ARC is firing where. The way I see it, this does away with the sudden-death feeling of a ARCs in general as well as abolish the firepower benefit of huge ARC trains. There are obvious backstory explainations with interference patterns etc.</li><li>Prevent ARCs from dealing damage to Hives. Pretty simple really.</li></ul>
My big issue is commanders leaving ARCs undefended, and steadily wearing down the alien hives just because all alien strucutres besides hives die in the first or second salvo, and repairing the damage takes ages. Gorges need a healing bonus.
I wouldn't say that, seen plenty of games where it's back and forth, rines' on 2 base and aliens maybe on 3 base until the Arc trains role out and rines lolwin because of it. Arc trains appear generally when marines have completed their essential build order and have "spare" resources- when they are generally 3/3 or 3/2 and they have JPs out. If rines can hold on to ~3 RTs late game they just win with arcs.
Just to mention, the scenarios I've used as examples has always been where the aliens have been pretty dominant, or at the very least, crawl to the point where they eventually have the entire map bar the marine base. I would say that Aliens lose because it's hard to fight an army that's much bigger than yours (again, going back to the idea that ARCs are extra units on the field for marines, it's a really important point to take note of) and that, at this point, you have to make the choice between committing to destroying the ARCs, committing to destroying the marines, or split your army in half to (more than likely) fail on both fronts. Also, again, it's not that the ARCs deal the final blow, I honestly think that is quite misleading - the ARCs just take out everything with no input from anyone beyond a scan, that's whips, hydras, key structures, hives - ARCs shouldn't be able to operate as a separate army unto itself, you know?
I will say, FPS issues lend a hand to how awkward this all is, my framerate just dies when there are so many ARCs trundling around, and if my framerate wasn't so bad I could better take out marines, clipping issues also don't help when it comes to attempting to target an ARC down, I believe that's why he mentions the clipping thing (although you are correct, aesthetic things don't belong to balance discussions!).
ARCs need to be done in such a way that it complements a marine squad, and doesn't act as a squad of its own unless the marine commander is doing something really impressive... it kind of makes it sound as if I'm backing the hard cap, but I'm not.
I think I'll stop replying to this thread in case I'm taken out of context :P
Ok so I think you're talking about ARCs being a problem in the mid game, in which case I'd suggest taking another look at bile bomb. You can BB at range, from the safety of the hive, and it strips marines of their armour really quickly now, so defending marines will be easy pray for other lifeforms.
Aliens need good intel to react to an ARC train of any size, and good teamwork to respond. But it <b>is</b> a pivotal moment in the game and the tRes investment by marines should warrant an appropriate response from the aliens. As in, there is a lot at stake.
Aliens also need a defence-in-depth approach to prevent ARCs rolling all the way up in to the hive without warning.
<!--quoteo(post=1948451:date=Jul 3 2012, 04:54 AM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jul 3 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, again, it's not that the ARCs deal the final blow, I honestly think that is quite misleading - the ARCs just take out everything with no input from anyone beyond a scan, that's whips, hydras, key structures, hives - ARCs shouldn't be able to operate as a separate army unto itself, you know?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, alright, I do get that. It's the set-and-forget nature of ARCs that's a problem. Once deployed it does seem a bit like "and now we just wait", which is a bit cheesy. They do only shoot at structures, so I don't think they're an army unto themselves. Unguarded ARCs should be targeted by aliens because they are a very economically rewarding target. They do come across as a bit primary to marines, with marines guarding them as a secondary thing. I think it would be nice to invert that, but I'm not sure how.
<!--quoteo(post=1948451:date=Jul 3 2012, 04:54 AM:name=Smaug)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smaug @ Jul 3 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I'll stop replying to this thread in case I'm taken out of context :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've only seen three of your posts so far but they've all been particularly worthwhile reads.
Marines could even with jetpack (which they rushed) not put pressure on our 2 hives. So they bunkered for a few mins, making it impossible to kill their base since onos is dead before even in the base. After they had 5+ arcs they just rolled over our hives. And this was not a long game, did last about 30min at the end.
Thats something i can agree on. (back and forth stuff, were marines come out as winners a lot easier)
Since aliens dont have as strong chambers(compared to arcs), it might not be as obvious - but the same thing happens for aliens too... at some point you can just spam cysts and chambers like a crazy person. (so it is even REQUIRED for marines to spam arcs to have a chance to survive - even sides were totally even until then)
Basically what ppl suggest is some kind of upkeep system - at X amoung of structure Z, it gets more and more expensive to build additional ones. (if you do it like that, or force it by making a cap per factory, so you are required to build tons of expensive factorys doesnt make a big difference)
Dunno if thats really a good route to go...
We have an economy problem in ns2. (i would love to give a solution to that, but its not easy - since we want to keep pres and tres i guess ;P)
Basically(at least i think thats it...) we are missing the ns1 resdrain of weapons and lifeforms from the tech economy, since you dont have that anymore - you get a lot quicker to a point where your team can have structure spam(arcs, chambers etc), and weapons, jps, lifeforms etc in addition. (this is all a little much, and aliens have it especially hard at that time into the game since arcs need more effort to counter than it is to use them for marines - especially in spam scenarios)
But balancing everything out by only touching the arcs, might end up with arcs not beeing really viable for anything else then this super lategame. (so we need to think bigger => economy)
edit: i hope this does make some sense, kinda tired :P
edit2: <!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->sorry, im a post first, edit a ######load of stuff later to make more sense guy -> looking @quote<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Since aliens dont have as strong chambers(compared to arcs), it might not be as obvious - but the same thing happens for aliens too... at some point you can just spam cysts and chambers like a crazy person. (so it is even REQUIRED for marines to spam arcs to have a chance to survive - even sides were totally even until then)
Basically what ppl suggest is some kind of upkeep system - at X amoung of structure Z, it gets more and more expensive to build additional ones. (if you do it like that, or force it by making a cap per factory, so you are required to build tons of expensive factorys doesnt make a big difference)
We have an economy problem in ns2. (i would love to give a solution to that, but its not easy - since we want to keep pres and tres i guess ;P)
Basically(at least i think thats it...) we are missing the ns1 resdrain of weapons and lifeforms from the tech economy, since you dont need that - you get a lot quicker to a point where your team can have structure spam(arcs, chambers etc), and weapons, jps, lifeforms etc in addition. (this is all a little much, and aliens have it especially hard at that time into the game since arcs need more effort to counter than it is to use them for marines - especially in spam scenarios)
edit: i hope this does make some sense, kinda tired :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of upkeep for ARCs, and perhaps whips. Whips aren't in the same league as ARCs though in terms of destructive power or health, but they are far better than sentries.
When I think of upkeep though, I think of a -1 res every x seconds. Eventually you will nullify your income, then get negative income until you are out. Commanders need a little income, so don't need to add more mechanics than that.