Get rid of Hallucination
Deadzone
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to put in mass alien hallucinations? In a game where you often only get one shot to save your life, it's hard enough to hit the alien half the time. But now the chances of the alien not even being real are 33-50%?
While we're at it, feign death is silly. With redemption it was FINE that the alien got away, the important thing was that marines knew the threat was removed for a short time. Now adding this element of doubt to every kill is just painful. Yes, I know you can tell if it was real or not by the + Score, but I still don't think it belongs in this game.
While we're at it, feign death is silly. With redemption it was FINE that the alien got away, the important thing was that marines knew the threat was removed for a short time. Now adding this element of doubt to every kill is just painful. Yes, I know you can tell if it was real or not by the + Score, but I still don't think it belongs in this game.
Comments
Feign.. I haven't actually seen it used but I'm not really fond of it as a concept yet.
Redemption was hardly used because it was terribly random if it'd even kick in in time, making it probably the least used upgrade. It was hardly okay. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Then i notice once I opened my eyes again, the entire room was full with onoses. I couldn't move, was stuck. The hallucinations was everywhere :)
I don't believe that this ability will work, maybe if they improve it. For example.
You may have up to a specific amount of hallucination. The bigger the lesser :)
Example:
6 Skulks active at the same time
4 Gorges active at the same time
3 lerks -"-
2 fades -"-
1 onos -"-
At current beta build, comander just spams onoses :P
As for feign.. I haven't actually seen it used yet, and redemption was hardly used because it was terribly random if it'd even kick in in time, making probably the least used upgrade. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
one fake skulk = 50% chance to hit the real one, two fake alien = 33% chance, and so on. It's not an exaggeration at all, just math.
Aliens were spamming it quite a bit on the maps I was playing, and it felt really frustrating every time. There's no way to tell if they're fake fast enough - you have to recognize threats at a glance in this game.
Maybe though hallucinations could be just <i>barely</i> different in shading or opaqueness, so skilled players could learn to tell the difference?
I agree that feign death may have some issues. You're right, with redemption, you at least know that the threat is removed from the immediate area; its either dead or teleported back to hive.
Perhaps if feign kept you invisible but unable to move or act at the location of your corpse with say 50% hp, and after a couple seconds you could move/act again? That way if marines have a solid advantage they can 'double tap' each dead alien body to actually kill any feigners, but it would allow aliens to either retreat or go in for another attack in a more evenly-sided skirmish.
in all seriousness, change hallucinations and I'll start a revolution.
Aliens were spamming it quite a bit on the maps I was playing, and it felt really frustrating every time. There's no way to tell if they're fake fast enough - you have to recognize threats at a glance in this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro--> I meant how often it's generally even used, not the chance of it being a hallucination, it's a showboating ability right now.
If they could afford to spam it you were already losing the resource game anyways, they really aren't worth the cost in any legit use, you were already losing. Also just the way they move is usually a giveaway, they don't jump, they don't move in any intelligent way at all, if they are the Khamm is wasting their time microing the silly things instead of doing something else more useful..<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You just said yourself, it doesn't really benefit the alien side (at least at its cost). It's clear that it makes things worse for the marines' experience.
No benefit + a negative = why on earth is it in the game?
Say that latter idea warrants its own post.
Feign death I cannot see being very useful. I have not yet seen it in use, but dead aliens have a tendency to slide around, flopping like a rag doll, and immediately "burning up". Any alien body that doesn't do that it is gonna get double tapped. I would much rather use the camoflague ability if I wanted to be sneaky.
Feign death I cannot see being very useful. I have not yet seen it in use, but dead aliens have a tendency to slide around, flopping like a rag doll, and immediately "burning up". Any alien body that doesn't do that it is gonna get double tapped. I would much rather use the camoflague ability if I wanted to be sneaky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine it is more like the spy feign death from TF2's deadringer, the player turns invisible and his ragdoll flies away.
Also feign death is a cool feature. I don't know how it works. I hope, that the rag-doll is flying when you take enough damage and the camera goes to 3rd person. As soon as you jump, you are back to life. That would be cool and easily counter-able by double-tap. Feign Death mechanic like in TF2 seems not really to fit.
You just said yourself, it doesn't really benefit the alien side (at least at its cost). It's clear that it makes things worse for the marines' experience.
No benefit + a negative = why on earth is it in the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->Oh I'm hardly defending it, as I said earlier, I'm for it's removal or major redesigning. I just found your post to exaggerate a bit*, we're in agreeance here otherwise. Seriously pointless tech.
*It's effect on the marine side are only anything above non-existent when at huge cost to the alien side. Plus it's generally easy to counter due to stupid low health, splash damage weapons and scans.
Edit: Oh and I've finally tried out Feign extensively and can conclude it as yet another change for the sake of change ability. It's effectiveness is questionable: Narrowly, it's easy to counter if the marine is any good resulting in essentially an extended death for the life form in question. Overall it's annoyance for all involved and yet another pointless piece of NS2 that's starting to seriously kill my faith in this development as time passes. Don't give me the "it's a beta" nonsense, this is still a late alpha/early beta looking for a release within 2 to 5 months. I've done plenty of real alphas and betas (not those glorified demos) and this one is honestly starting to worry me. We're really close to release, even if they were to extend to the end of the year and we're still tooling around with the basics.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Here's an example:
- Aliens prepare an attack at a marine secondary base
- Commander pops an onos and two skulk hallucination and moves them towards the marine main base, attracting attention.
- A few marines go to main base to defend
- The actual aliens move in to attack the secondary base.
It's just <b>one</b> example, but when used effectively, might change the course of a battle.
Ofcourse, they still need balancing, like so many other things in the game. But I do see a great way for the alien commander to influence the course of a battle with these.
Also I'm not a friend of: "It doesn't work? Scrap it!"
- Aliens prepare an attack at a marine secondary base
- Commander pops an onos and two skulk hallucination and moves them towards the marine main base, attracting attention.
- A few marines go to main base to defend
- The actual aliens move in to attack the secondary base.
It's just <b>one</b> example, but when used effectively, might change the course of a battle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm, you know what would make this example even better? If actual alien-players did the diversion. Fighting anything else than physical manifestations of players tends to be a bit of a let-down, and this may prove that notion yet again. Although admittedly it is exceedingly difficult to judge any of these changes by their merit, as the game remains to be in a state of flux (far more than it should with only months away from a release).
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->looking for a release within 2 to 5 months<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was kinda banking\hoping on it being no more than 2 months. December is hardly summer.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I'm not a friend of: "It doesn't work? Scrap it!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish they made things that are in the game now work first, before adding more superfluous features that aren't really a fix for anything.
As for actual aliens doing the distracting - sure, they can come along as well, but the more aliens doing the actual attack, the bigger a chance of success. As for the let-down, if marines want to be sure, just <b>scan</b>. It's something that adds tactical decisions to the game, and a challenge for the other side to counter it appropriately. That's basically what the entire game is about.
And yes, everything will be much easier to judge once the overall balance improves and comes closer to release-worthy quality.
used for scouting purposes I think.
<!--quoteo(post=1950952:date=Jul 12 2012, 01:21 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 12 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was kinda banking\hoping on it being no more than 2 months. December is hardly summer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They didn't mentioned the latitude, so summer can be anytime of the year.
Lol.
On-topic: I can't for the life of me understand why hallucinations have HEALTH. They're GHOSTS, why do they take damage? "Watch out, three onose-PRATTAT! Nevermind, they were just illusions."
Imho bullets should go thru phantasms. There still wouldn't be blood, so that'd be the giveaway.
The biggest problem with phantasms tho is that unless controlled 24/7 they do nothing, and that doesn't fool anyone. They should have some kind of "milling around" AI, which would in turn create a truckload of problems. I've no clue how to solve that.
On-topic: I can't for the life of me understand why hallucinations have HEALTH. They're GHOSTS, why do they take damage? "Watch out, three onose-PRATTAT! Nevermind, they were just illusions."
Imho bullets should go thru phantasms. There still wouldn't be blood, so that'd be the giveaway.
The biggest problem with phantasms tho is that unless controlled 24/7 they do nothing, and that doesn't fool anyone. They should have some kind of "milling around" AI, which would in turn create a truckload of problems. I've no clue how to solve that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the 'health' can be explained by kharaa bacteria clumping together to be shaped like an onos, without actually being one. Since it has mass, it can be hit! It's just loads weaker. Giving them health is a good thing, because it gives you a way to get rid of them easily.
As for them standing around when not controlled, that's up to the khammander. If a khammander is silly enough to buy several hallucinations to then let them stand around and do nothing, he wasted resources. It's all micro to keep them animated, that's what I like about it. It adds a new layer of micro-skill to the khammander's tasks.
As for them standing around when not controlled, that's up to the khammander. If a khammander is silly enough to buy several hallucinations to then let them stand around and do nothing, he wasted resources. It's all micro to keep them animated, that's what I like about it. It adds a new layer of micro-skill to the khammander's tasks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe would be nice if they phased, or produced gas, when shot to make it clear for marines.
Most of the advantage aliens get anyway is the first charge, where the marine commander hits the beacon once he sees 3 onos hallucinations in base.
Why not?
Name me an important, critically-praised product that has many superfluous features.
If you can do that, name me an important, critically-praised product that has many superfluous features, and with the features also well-polished.
It's tough to do, because adding things and then figuring out what they're for is a terrible idea, while removing things that don't fit instead of wasting time on them is a great idea.
Do you work (or have you ever) in any sort of design/engineering context?
<b>Anyway, here are my thoughts on the hallucination mechanic:</b>
It's blatantly borrowed from Starcraft, with all the same goals in mind ("tricking" people, faking multi-pronged attacks etc). What's different is that in Starcraft, when you detect a hallucination (say, with an observer or a scan) your units will automatically prioritize real units over the hallucinated ones.
In NS2 there's no way to do this until the hallucinations are dead and not blocking your path (and you're all busy reloading). This alone means the ability inherently does not fit with NS2, and should be scrapped. If you want to use hallucinations to "trick" people and feel like a genius, play a full RTS game where it works. Shoehorning it into NS2 will be bad in the long run, even if some very vocal and important people like it right now.
^that
NS2 is not forgiving enough to let you kill a harmless target.
The other thing that REALLY makes it annoying is the dashing of expectations. As a marine, if I pump ammo into an alien, I expect it to die. (or at least be hurt enough that it will die eventually) But with these, I get that good solid shotgun blast on a fade-- oh wait, he wasn't real? I feel robbed.
Me neither. But only when you have time to do so. If NS2 is to release on time, then UWE needs to prioritize, hardcore. Its far more productive to refine what does work, and scrap what doesn't, than to waste even more time trying to fix a broken mechanic (and probably failing at it).