b214
Benson
Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">why so much hate?</div>G'day everybody! so after reading the forums for a bit i'm seeing A LOT of hate for this new patch and i really dont understand it. In-game most people that play have nothing bad to say, and are enjoying the patch very much.
What I've seen people hating:
Alien Vision change (bad i know, but hardly game breaking)
Immediately losing abilities when 2nd hive is lost (irritating in the extreme, but easily fixed)
Feign death being OP (it's not really, i found classic redemption to be worse with no 2nd attempt to kill the alien again)
What people are ignoring:
<u>Dramatic</u> increase in preformance (was wanted for a long time by many people)
Tiered abilities/equipment giving more incentive for map control (was wanted back for a long time by many people)
reduced impact infestation spikes have on game play (yay for less mvmnt impairing effects!)
Ink Cloud gave aliens a way to make it harder to arc a hive (was also wanted for a long time)
cysts health lowered to prevent spam (was also wanted for a long time)
New waypoint system (was wary at first but i personally like it better)
All in all i think that this patch has more good than bad changes. I REALLY don't want another flame thread about "why UWE isnt doing their job" (they're doing it better than fine), i just want to understand why so many people claim to hate this build when there are more positives than negatives.
Again, this is NOT A FLAME THREAD. DO NOT RANT ABOUT WHY YOU HATE THE GAME HERE. I just want to know if the community really thinks this patch is horrible (explicitly said by more than a few people) when there has been no mention of any of the good changes.
What I've seen people hating:
Alien Vision change (bad i know, but hardly game breaking)
Immediately losing abilities when 2nd hive is lost (irritating in the extreme, but easily fixed)
Feign death being OP (it's not really, i found classic redemption to be worse with no 2nd attempt to kill the alien again)
What people are ignoring:
<u>Dramatic</u> increase in preformance (was wanted for a long time by many people)
Tiered abilities/equipment giving more incentive for map control (was wanted back for a long time by many people)
reduced impact infestation spikes have on game play (yay for less mvmnt impairing effects!)
Ink Cloud gave aliens a way to make it harder to arc a hive (was also wanted for a long time)
cysts health lowered to prevent spam (was also wanted for a long time)
New waypoint system (was wary at first but i personally like it better)
All in all i think that this patch has more good than bad changes. I REALLY don't want another flame thread about "why UWE isnt doing their job" (they're doing it better than fine), i just want to understand why so many people claim to hate this build when there are more positives than negatives.
Again, this is NOT A FLAME THREAD. DO NOT RANT ABOUT WHY YOU HATE THE GAME HERE. I just want to know if the community really thinks this patch is horrible (explicitly said by more than a few people) when there has been no mention of any of the good changes.
Comments
One thing to keep in mind at <b>any</b> discussion forum is that people are more likely to post about negative things, than they would about positives. Why? Simply because the positives are they and there don't need changes. The downsides are what they want to see changed. Add to that the fact that internet anonimity makes it easier to 'rage' or 'flame'; basically communicating in a way that fewer people would in real life.
Finally, some people are very much convinced that things need changing and express that in their own way, to a certain extent that's a right we give them here.
Everything else seems fine, or even good.
Build 213 was a laugh though, for the little time it was up there were bugs everywhere. Glad they jumped up and fixed it.
Some performance-increase on the server-side, but not even remotely enough (just join one of the 'normal' servers, eg. ones that aren't 4-5GHz Sandybridges, and you will be quickly reminded of this). I guess with the terrible track-record of server-performance any improvement may seem like a godsend, but let's not oversell it shall we. Still, it's a step in the right direction.
This is what i'm going for.
That being said...
One thing I am hoping that gets looked at is the jump-sploiting (e.g. as a skulk, repeatedly changing directions/jumping, etc. to fool behind-the-scenes hit registration/movement prediction, making skulk players harder to hit because the game is being tricked).
Yesterday, I saw a gentlemen that was jump-sploiting as a skulk and had over TWICE as many kills as his ENTIRE team combined. 25 in total and 5 deaths. It was amazing. Many people were saying he was hacking while other people were saying he was just very skilled.
I studied his methods over the next few games until I got an idea of what he was doing. I tried using his jump-sploit method and found I was getting a lot more kills than I am used to. But... it felt dirty... cheap. I started to feel sorry for the marine players. They simply didn't have a chance. The more of us that started using this technique, the more the marine players moaned of imba issues. It was bad. It didn't feel good. We didn't even need to evolve to higher life forms to win.
The important take-away item from this is that, if NS2 is going to be successful/UWE staying in business, the game will, of course, need to appeal to a large audience of players.
Enter the importance of fixing the movement prediction/hit registration issue/bug. Obviously, not as important as the #1 issue (which is performance improvements), but it's up there.
See, new players that play on servers where skulk jump-sploiting is active, are going to spend about 30 minutes playing the game, getting really frustrated by sploiters and then never playing the game again, never telling their friends about having an awesome NS2 experience, never sharing awesome battle stories, and in worst case scenarios, asking for refunds and telling everyone about how bad the game is.
Of course, we do not want this.
And since I do have great faith in the UWE team, I can only imagine that this issue is already being looked at, with plans to remedy it, but I just figured I would throw it out there, since feedback was asked for.
Thanks for listening!
Yes it improved server side which means also client side in a way.
Dont have much time to play atm but gameplay was very smooth the 2 hours i played yesterday compared 2 all before.
One thing I am hoping that gets looked at is the jump-sploiting
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Definitely a good point. I've noticed this myself as well, as a marine with a rifle, I just <b>couldn't</b> for the love of me kill a skulk that was running/jumping/strafing right at me. Thankfully, both the hit registration and performance issues are known and solutions are in the works.
I'm definitely seeing performance increases since the last patch as well. It's a step forward indeed.
The performance increasing/fixing is an absolutely stellar change, and nice to see. However, all six games across three servers I was in, the higher FPS was counteracted by the introduction of an awful and horrible widespread problem with a ton of players 'teleporting around', anyone with a ping in excess of around 80 was literally blinking/clipping around in fights, around structures and into terrain at random.
Game breaking. Flatly. So while I can watch with my new crisp solid ~85FPS (now never sinks below 55-60ish), I get to crisply watch people clip into walls, be unshootable as they're teleporting into buildings and each other, and watch a skulk and a marine bunny-jump in circles for 35 seconds because neither can hit anything because they're teleporting.
I'd chalk that up to their systems, or a server-death issue, but everyone was rocking nice pings and a few others (t^Locke, Cat-Poker, and others) were simply saying it was an issue new to the build and 'known'.
It is awful. I'd rather play with a synchronized non-clipping 10fps game than a 80fps clipped out, out-of-sync clustermush of failaporting.
I think the fade changes are a massive step up, but overall, the skulk has been ruined. Played marine for 3 games and went ~20:1 fairly easily with a bit of caution, since Skulks apparently can no longer bunnyhop, walljump, and leap is a slo-mo antigrav move intended to go after jetpackers. Marines can outrun skulks. This should never be true. A marine playing cautiously with a L0 LMG now (Assuming the clipping issue isn't happening anywhere during), can easily farm out any number of skulks due to their total inability to close the gap on the marine before the 2nd hive is up (And even then, the leap is super easy to track because it's super slow).
I'm suprised any marine teams are losing any games currently, pub or not. Feign death seems interesting, but I didn't get to play around with it much (only once), as the norm still seems to be 'lol rush cara'.
All three marine games were incredibly easy wins due to the utter nonviability of skulks vs LMG0 marines currently. The marine has to totally err to be killed; whether in movement, position, or utterly ridiculously bad at aiming at the 1mph skulk slowly jumping down the hall/on the roof.
That's my take on it anyways. I'll try it some more tomorrow, but currently it's a 'Skip this build, needs work' for me. (Mostly due to the clipping/teleport problem that i see on a good 30% of every play in every game i've seen of b213/214).
Source: I just played two gathers on two different servers and didn't see any teleporting.
On the topic of skulks: They're bad. Everyone has been abusing 1 minute leap so nobody knows how to play skulk anymore. Specially in low skill pub games. Wait for people to actually learn how to play skulks again because that was a huge playstyle change shoved down their throats.
However , it seems though that its far more linear than previous build since the abilities moved to second hive.
Start > Shift hive > 3-4 harvesters > celerity > second hive > crag hive > carapace/leap > spikes/regen/adrenaline > blink > 3rd hive
This has been the start of every one of those games. I played a game as comm yesterday and did my typical crag hive start, and that failed spectacularly. The slowdown from carapace makes skulks useless without leap.
Shift is now the mandatory first hive, and crag is mandatory second since you get leap at that point.
Last build the only thing set in stone was getting leap, otherwise the choices I made were fluid based on players and enemy actions.
I had a nice experience with my 15-50 fps.
And for the better.
Of most people I hated the changes to the skulk more than anything else in this beta's history. I hated the nerf to walljumping and now walljumping has been nerfed even more. <b>For the greater good.</b>
Am I mad? No. Because after giving the last builds a real chance I have seen the genius behind the development cycle. We are quick to judge and get mad at changes and nerfs when UWE knows this game best. It's their creation and they are the only ones who know how to fix it.
I am a believer again because the skulk and marine combat was a major issue of imbalance. Removal of insta-leap and walljump has changed the gameplay to be more thought driven and tactical. Sure, at first I got angry and said "Great more tedium" but overall it made me admire the game from a high perspective. Instead of blasting through levels with no tactics or thought at all... now I have to use all of the nooks and crannies that the mappers and developers want us to experience.
It makes me sad to come to these forums now and I tend not to post much at all or look here at all. All I see is flame threads, remove this, imba that, fix this, it's a damn beta, and by technical standards we are actually playing an alpha until exosuits are here.
Kudos to UWE for being brave and looking at the games real issues. I think they are starting to trust in their own judgement again rather than reading the constant wave of complaints that are generated here... helping nothing.
I stand by UWE and their knowledge of the game. I refuse to play any version of the game that people modded to make "balance". The games creators know more than you and its a slap in the face to UWE to try to show them what they are doing wrong when they more than likely are aware of it and working to fix it. You really don't know this game as well as they do. You know who you are.
I'm liking this build though, for the first time I really felt like I was playing a game rather than testing software. If the improvement from 212 to 214 can be perpetuated into the next couple of builds, we'll be in good shape.
Of most people I hated the changes to the skulk more than anything else in this beta's history. I hated the nerf to walljumping and now walljumping has been nerfed even more. For the greater good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can keep up and even out run skulks. Can't hardly consider that "for the better" when skulks are suppose to be agile, quick killers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played 5 games as alien comm today, was fantastic.
However , it seems though that its far more linear than previous build since the abilities moved to second hive.
Start > Shift hive > 3-4 harvesters > celerity > second hive > crag hive > carapace/leap > spikes/regen/adrenaline > blink > 3rd hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try shade hive > harvesters > feint > second hive > crag hive > carapace/leap > blink/regen > 3rd hive.
Celerity stops working during combat. While feint can sometimes allow a quick bite or two if the marines stop paying attention.
Shift hive is outclassed now by shade hive. Hilarious considering how it was the other way around a patch ago, not to mention still no hive teleport feature. Adrenaline doesn't mean much if your fades know how to abuse shadow step and blink together even with Alien Vision energy regen nerf. And feint makes them nearly impossible to kill in pubs. I predict fades getting hit with the nerf bat soon because game can't be too challenging for the marine player base.
<!--quoteo(post=1951440:date=Jul 13 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 13 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without insta-leap, cara needs to no longer reduce speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity stops working during combat. While feint can sometimes allow a quick bite or two if the marines stop paying attention.
Shift hive is outclassed now by shade hive. Hilarious considering how it was the other way around a patch ago, not to mention still no hive teleport feature. Adrenaline doesn't mean much if your fades know how to abuse shadow step and blink together even with Alien Vision energy regen nerf. And feint makes them nearly impossible to kill in pubs. I predict fades getting hit with the nerf bat soon because game can't be too challenging for the marine player base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are probably right, but for pub games I don't see everyone using feint, nor instantly obeying my commands. Celerity allows them to catch marines on my harvesters early game. So pub games, I always choose shift hive first.
I imagine in clan matches, yes shade would be much better.
I imagine in clan matches, yes shade would be much better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I start with a shade hive in pub matches, and found it to be very successful. I start with feint, and if we're res fed I also pick up silence, which helps a lot, and I decide on what my second hive will be (Mostly I get shift, because silence and feint are extremely powerful in the early game, and the fades can pick up up cele for speedy silenced hit-and-runs.) I win most games that I khamm. But, if it works for you, that's great.
I would dump my wife just to meet the uwe.
Anyways, I LOVE ALL OF THOSE BEHIND NS2 AND KEEEP UP THE GOOD WORK .......... YOUR DOING AN FANTASTIC GAME !!!!!!! YOU SHOULD BE PROUD. WE WOULDN'T HAVE NS2 IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU UWE.
They can still gain and hold map control through ambushing, and if the aliens work more as a coordinated unit they can probably match marines.
Stil, I see aliens win plenty.
So b214 definitely gets my thumbs up. Keep up the good work UWE.
I've also resumed working on my map again ;)
I assure you it is on our list in the high priority section.
As for performance, so many more good things on the way!!
Stop teasing us! ;)
I, personally, noticed a huge difference in smoothed, consistent frames!
But some things, like handling player count are far better: We were able to play 20 person games with the server never dipping below 20 ticks.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Here's some optimization items that you would see if we had progress tracker working:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<b><u>DISCLAIMER</u></b>, I will not be updating this list or you every time their status changes, nor can i promise or explain why they are implemented or not implemented or what their impact is or what they precisely do...I don't even promise that they ARE optimizations.<b> I just thought it might whet your appetite in the meantime :)</b>
Speedup multi-function calls from Mixins
Optimized Entity.GetMapName
Cached off the Weapon map name which is queried often
Optimized querying whether or not an entity needed to be updated
Fixed invalid network field definitions
Reduced size of personal and team resource fields in Player and removed an unnecessary field
Changes particle effects to be networked as entities rather than messages (reduces choke)
Moved network debug code out of various files and into new dedicated NetworkDebug.lua file
Removed general OnUpdate call in Server.lua, now all server update calls happen in the various more specific files that updates are needed in
Reduced bandwidth needed for updating Alien structure Maturity
Added filtering of entities in the net_snapshots command
More profiling
Ensure NULL entities are not propagated from the EntityQueryManager, log when it happens
PerfAnalyser plot search result on detail window
And this is just the stuff that was added in the past 2 days... !