One idea I had (Which isn't mine) is to make carapace or damage increase with the # of hives. In theory this would help keep lifeforms more balanced with marines throughout the course of the game.
Right now an annoying problem is that its nearly impossible to balance lifeforms against marines when the game is so nebulous in concern to how many upgrades the marines will have vs the aliens at any given point.
Some games you might see fades out when marines only have armor 1 and weapons 1, which I think is usually the case on a back and forth game. Right now with the balancing I believe that the fade is too powerful during that game stage, but later in the game they will be too weak if you nerf em from current. So, why not tie carapace to the number of hives, and cap the total armor boosts to only 3 hives (For maps with more tech points aliens can't get too powerful then).
It makes sense in my head and I believe earlier build's had a similar package to this. I wish I knew how to code this type of balance change myself to do some testing, but I am not that adept with lua yet.
If anyone thinks this could be a good idea and wants to test it I would be grateful as it may help with balance.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1951854:date=Jul 15 2012, 08:11 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 15 2012, 08:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One idea I had (Which isn't mine) is to make carapace or damage increase with the # of hives. In theory this would help keep lifeforms more balanced with marines throughout the course of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the concept, but unfortunately that would make cara #1 choice everytime.. almost would make it mandatory.. And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
<!--quoteo(post=1951857:date=Jul 15 2012, 08:41 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 15 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the concept, but unfortunately that would make cara #1 choice everytime.. almost would make it mandatory.. And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
hmmm ideas..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If uwe does it like this I would say nerf cara and make it a "bonus armor" on top of the normal attack/armor 1/2/3. Sort of like the extra armor ultralisks used in starcraft to get up to 3/5. So people could get extra armor but it would take up an upgrade slot, and the commander would usually prioritize att/def upgrades.
I feel like this would make many less players pick crag off the bat, unless they want to be very tanky early game. (if you want more cara diversity, maybe make cara a big armor gain for bigger move speed loss? Allowing for later game gorge/onos survivability centered around a point)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the concept, but unfortunately that would make cara #1 choice everytime.. almost would make it mandatory.. And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
hmmm ideas..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor/damage(focus bite ns1 style) upgrades a la arms lab for aliens.
I keep saying it over and over. Feels like beating a dead horse at this point, about to make glue.
Carapace should just be made like it was, no speed reduction and the previous levels of armor... Having aliens scale in damage, health an abilities each hive would be very difficult to balance correctly, personally I think it is easier to just balance the abilities.
The timing issue IMO is from the no pres when dead system, which can really cripple the aliens pres situations unless they are playing really well. While it doesnt matter much this patch because of hit detection and other issues, it is something that needs to be looked at.
Regarding fade personally it doesnt need a nerf. In the previous build we tested 250/50 HP fade with an almost identical blink system (except it was a good bit faster) against a shotgun a1 w1 marine. It came down to the players skill and execution mainly each time, it felt quite balanced. I still think blink should be changed to be hive 1, and shadowstep hive 2 (with an energy cost again).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having aliens scale in damage, health an abilities each hive would be very difficult to balance correctly, personally I think it is easier to just balance the abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens had hp/armor scaling in ns1 and also had focus which increased damage (but lowered attack speed). Both of which are missing in NS2
Aliens did not have HP/Armor scaling in NS1.. unless you count the third hive armor bonus (3 HP points per armor vs 2), which arguably only helped with ending games.
Focus was a chamber upgrade and not linked to hives in any way really...
<!--quoteo(post=1951867:date=Jul 16 2012, 12:52 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 16 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens did not have HP/Armor scaling in NS1.. unless you count the third hive armor bonus (3 HP points per armor vs 2), which arguably only helped with ending games.
Focus was a chamber upgrade and not linked to hives in any way really...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. (And what a surprise, Ns2 aliens are having trouble ending games)
And doesn't matter where it was from. They still got a damage upgrade.
What I'm proposing is an arms lab type structure for aliens where they can scale just like marines do. So aliens can be balanced for early, mid and late game. Then we wouldn't have tons of threads pop up every patch saying aliens are too op or too weak.
<!--quoteo(post=1951636:date=Jul 15 2012, 12:07 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Jul 15 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A fade should bring terror to marineteam, he must be scrary and in an 1v1 with same skills a fade never has to lose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your idea of balance is absurd. Just saying. A marine that can go toe to toe and respond with every blow with a shotgun shell through the Fades face should have an even chance to win.
Atm, he just blinks out of doing a feign death or he blinks out before death to fight another day with his "training wheels" 300/100 hp.
But, this could all be misconstrued due to hit reg as mentioned.
<!--quoteo(post=1951857:date=Jul 16 2012, 05:41 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 16 2012, 05:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^THIS! Can't see why someone would demand the old mandatory Cara-First-Upgrade-BS. This was sooo boring.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1951880:date=Jul 16 2012, 07:19 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Jul 16 2012, 07:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your idea of balance is absurd. Just saying. A marine that can go toe to toe and respond with every blow with a shotgun shell through the Fades face should have an even chance to win.
Atm, he just blinks out of doing a feign death or he blinks out before death to fight another day with his "training wheels" 300/100 hp.
But, this could all be misconstrued due to hit reg as mentioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depend on the situation, upgrades, jp and use of weapon for sure. But an lvl0 lmg marine without jp should NEVER kill an fade alone @ same skill level. That was what i mean. Sure, a JP with lvl3 shotgun have an real chance todo this.
There once was a tester called Obraxis He'd proven poetry was not his praxis. He just couldn't rhyme, It was almost a crime And it read just like a Parapraxis!
<!--quoteo(post=1951908:date=Jul 16 2012, 07:07 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 16 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><i>Chorus</i></b> Hey, I just saw you, And this is crazy, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right At you baby, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lolz
<!--quoteo(post=1951908:date=Jul 16 2012, 04:07 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 16 2012, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going to talk about the lerk now, in the form of song.
I know a SabaLerk well, (Don't ask her, she'll never tell) Skilled Lerking seems to have fell, Unless you play her way
She'd trade her soul for a wish, To make the Lerking like bliss She wasn't looking for <i><b>this</b></i>, But now it's in her way!
Lerks spikes are OK, Too fast! Speed is OP, 1 Shot SG 'nnoying Where is all the armour, baby?!
<b><i>Chorus</i></b> Hey, I just saw you, And this is crazy, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right At you baby, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1951908:date=Jul 16 2012, 07:07 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jul 16 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1951908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Going to talk about the lerk now, in the form of song.
I know a SabaLerk well, (Don't ask her, she'll never tell) Skilled Lerking seems to have fell, Unless you play her way
She'd trade her soul for a wish, To make the Lerking like bliss She wasn't looking for <i><b>this</b></i>, But now it's in her way!
Lerks spikes are OK, Too fast! Speed is OP, 1 Shot SG 'nnoying Where is all the armour, baby?!
<b><i>Chorus</i></b> Hey, I just saw you, And this is crazy, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right At you baby, But here's my Umbra, Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Right now an annoying problem is that its nearly impossible to balance lifeforms against marines when the game is so nebulous in concern to how many upgrades the marines will have vs the aliens at any given point.
Some games you might see fades out when marines only have armor 1 and weapons 1, which I think is usually the case on a back and forth game. Right now with the balancing I believe that the fade is too powerful during that game stage, but later in the game they will be too weak if you nerf em from current. So, why not tie carapace to the number of hives, and cap the total armor boosts to only 3 hives (For maps with more tech points aliens can't get too powerful then).
It makes sense in my head and I believe earlier build's had a similar package to this. I wish I knew how to code this type of balance change myself to do some testing, but I am not that adept with lua yet.
If anyone thinks this could be a good idea and wants to test it I would be grateful as it may help with balance.
I like the concept, but unfortunately that would make cara #1 choice everytime.. almost would make it mandatory..
And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
hmmm ideas..
And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
hmmm ideas..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If uwe does it like this I would say nerf cara and make it a "bonus armor" on top of the normal attack/armor 1/2/3. Sort of like the extra armor ultralisks used in starcraft to get up to 3/5. So people could get extra armor but it would take up an upgrade slot, and the commander would usually prioritize att/def upgrades.
I feel like this would make many less players pick crag off the bat, unless they want to be very tanky early game. (if you want more cara diversity, maybe make cara a big armor gain for bigger move speed loss? Allowing for later game gorge/onos survivability centered around a point)
And we are just now finally having cara not always picked as a primary , thank god.
hmmm ideas..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor/damage(focus bite ns1 style) upgrades a la arms lab for aliens.
I keep saying it over and over. Feels like beating a dead horse at this point, about to make glue.
Having aliens scale in damage, health an abilities each hive would be very difficult to balance correctly, personally I think it is easier to just balance the abilities.
The timing issue IMO is from the no pres when dead system, which can really cripple the aliens pres situations unless they are playing really well. While it doesnt matter much this patch because of hit detection and other issues, it is something that needs to be looked at.
Regarding fade personally it doesnt need a nerf. In the previous build we tested 250/50 HP fade with an almost identical blink system (except it was a good bit faster) against a shotgun a1 w1 marine. It came down to the players skill and execution mainly each time, it felt quite balanced. I still think blink should be changed to be hive 1, and shadowstep hive 2 (with an energy cost again).
Aliens had hp/armor scaling in ns1 and also had focus which increased damage (but lowered attack speed). Both of which are missing in NS2
Focus was a chamber upgrade and not linked to hives in any way really...
Focus was a chamber upgrade and not linked to hives in any way really...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. (And what a surprise, Ns2 aliens are having trouble ending games)
And doesn't matter where it was from. They still got a damage upgrade.
What I'm proposing is an arms lab type structure for aliens where they can scale just like marines do. So aliens can be balanced for early, mid and late game. Then we wouldn't have tons of threads pop up every patch saying aliens are too op or too weak.
Your idea of balance is absurd. Just saying. A marine that can go toe to toe and respond with every blow with a shotgun shell through the Fades face should have an even chance to win.
Atm, he just blinks out of doing a feign death or he blinks out before death to fight another day with his "training wheels" 300/100 hp.
But, this could all be misconstrued due to hit reg as mentioned.
^THIS! Can't see why someone would demand the old mandatory Cara-First-Upgrade-BS. This was sooo boring.
Atm, he just blinks out of doing a feign death or he blinks out before death to fight another day with his "training wheels" 300/100 hp.
But, this could all be misconstrued due to hit reg as mentioned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depend on the situation, upgrades, jp and use of weapon for sure.
But an lvl0 lmg marine without jp should NEVER kill an fade alone @ same skill level. That was what i mean.
Sure, a JP with lvl3 shotgun have an real chance todo this.
I know a SabaLerk well,
(Don't ask her, she'll never tell)
Skilled Lerking seems to have fell,
Unless you play her way
She'd trade her soul for a wish,
To make the Lerking like bliss
She wasn't looking for <i><b>this</b></i>,
But now it's in her way!
Lerks spikes are OK,
Too fast! Speed is OP,
1 Shot SG 'nnoying
Where is all the armour, baby?!
<b><i>Chorus</i></b>
Hey, I just saw you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right
At you baby,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
He'd proven poetry was not his praxis.
He just couldn't rhyme,
It was almost a crime
And it read just like a Parapraxis!
Hey, I just saw you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right
At you baby,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lolz
I know a SabaLerk well,
(Don't ask her, she'll never tell)
Skilled Lerking seems to have fell,
Unless you play her way
She'd trade her soul for a wish,
To make the Lerking like bliss
She wasn't looking for <i><b>this</b></i>,
But now it's in her way!
Lerks spikes are OK,
Too fast! Speed is OP,
1 Shot SG 'nnoying
Where is all the armour, baby?!
<b><i>Chorus</i></b>
Hey, I just saw you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right
At you baby,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is this foul monstrosity?
I know a SabaLerk well,
(Don't ask her, she'll never tell)
Skilled Lerking seems to have fell,
Unless you play her way
She'd trade her soul for a wish,
To make the Lerking like bliss
She wasn't looking for <i><b>this</b></i>,
But now it's in her way!
Lerks spikes are OK,
Too fast! Speed is OP,
1 Shot SG 'nnoying
Where is all the armour, baby?!
<b><i>Chorus</i></b>
Hey, I just saw you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?
It's hard to fly right
At you baby,
But here's my Umbra,
Don't hurt me, (maybe)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of fantastic.