Commander from above

GrimfangGrimfang Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13086Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Structures hard to find</div>I have been doing a bit of commanding on both mainre and alien side, and one thing I find hard is to remember where I dropped the structures. They are fairly easy to see from the side, but from above it can be hard. The marine is not as bad, as I only have a few buildings I need to upgrade, but some of the boxes that is just scenery sometimes look like my arms lab or armory.
But on the alien side it's a real mess. If you have a hive in a room where the light has been cut, and you need to figure out which of the stuff on ground is something you can upgrade, and not an egg, cyst, whip or whatever else is in there, then it gets really hard. Secondly I really miss some sort of overview of what upgrades are still there.

Could there be some sort of UI enhancement that listed the upgrades you already have, and any upgrade chambers ready for an available upgrade? It would help new commanders alot, and the conversation with players would be less of "Where is the upgrades, eject comm!!!?". I often play games, where I feel we are doing good, only to realise I missed some crucial upgrades.

And if there is some smart way of knowing this, I think I'm missing it
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Comments

  • NecroNecro &lt;insert non-birthday-related title here&gt; Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
    i think totalbiscuit mentioined this, particularly on the marine side where certain structes like the armslab and the armory look very similar from above.
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    They also need to make it so you can't see through the sides of walls. I.e.

    I hope UWE do this, because it would make things a whole lot easier on the eye in terms of where rooms begin/end, it would look more polished... etc.

    <img src="http://s12.postimage.org/69qkyp8fh/overview.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    I know I have posted this already, but I hope it is on their list!
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  • TquilaTquila Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70738Members, NS2 Playtester
    With regards to the similar buildings, I guess this is learned after only a few games. Although it would be a nice feature, I think there is more pressing issues at hand right now.

    I disagree on the last part, I think the game would look worse, and overall I appreaciate the fact that you have a large view.
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  • plausiblesargeplausiblesarge Join Date: 2012-08-02 Member: 154558Members
    +1 to the "Clear" image
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  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    I completely lost a spur last time I khammed. Those things are freaking tiny. The other upgrade chambers aren't too bad, but spurs definitely need to be remodeled.

    Really, comms and players need an "always show building hp rings" option.
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  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Doing what Runteh wants is a huge, if not impossible, technical challenge depending on how "clear" you want it to look. It also depends a lot on the map itself, of course.

    What I'd really like is disabling atmospherics in commander mode. I've done that for the overhead mode in Insight because they just don't work at all depending on where they come from (e.g. in Flight Control).
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  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    edited August 2012
    Why not just add something like the alien vision feature to both commander and khammander interfaces? Quick press of the "F" button and you get an infrared-style view which tones out everything but players and structures. Press F again and you're back to regular view.

    For structures I'm likely to go back to (arms lab, observatory, forgettable and small alien structures) I will add hotkeys (CTRL-1, CTRL-2) so I don't have to worry about finding them again.
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  • kobjaguerkobjaguer Join Date: 2011-05-22 Member: 100088Members
    what if you can see the icon for that structure when in comm chair(or even as the whole team) like when you drop a life form egg for example? shouldnt be such a hard maneuver
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  • rhombusrhombus Lerk Queen Join Date: 2011-06-23 Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1957567:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:40 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 5 2012, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely lost a spur last time I khammed. Those things are freaking tiny. The other upgrade chambers aren't too bad, but spurs definitely need to be remodeled.

    Really, comms and players need an "always show building hp rings" option.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is on their list of things to do.
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  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1957578:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:09 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 5 2012, 08:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not just add something like the alien vision feature to both commander and khammander interfaces? Quick press of the "F" button and you get an infrared-style view which tones out everything but players and structures. Press F again and you're back to regular view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This. +1
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1957571:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:49 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Aug 5 2012, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doing what Runteh wants is a huge, if not impossible, technical challenge depending on how "clear" you want it to look. It also depends a lot on the map itself, of course.

    What I'd really like is disabling atmospherics in commander mode. I've done that for the overhead mode in Insight because they just don't work at all depending on where they come from (e.g. in Flight Control).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Why create an rts/fps hybrid if the overhead view is going to look so... unfinished and messy.

    Are you a programmer, is that a fact.
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  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1957797:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:53 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 5 2012, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why create an rts/fos hybrid if the overhead view is going to look so... unfinished and messy.

    Are you a programmer, is that a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Making all geometry faces double-sided and black on the other side would be a start, but can possibly mess up visibility in some places. I doubt the engine even has the capabilities of doing that on the fly, so it would have to be done manually for all maps.
    There's also props, which can't be easily treated in the same way.

    I also hate having something in my way when commanding, so I like being able to see through the sides of walls. E.g. commanding on mineshaft with the rocks all over the place is incredibly frustraing.
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I don't know if it would be so hard, you already have the z-projection (well y in ns2 frame) in the minimap. You could use it, or a higher resolution version, and some trick to improve the rendering. But yes, it will not happen soon for sure.
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  • Jonp_11Jonp_11 Join Date: 2003-08-24 Member: 20161Members
    I really like Runteh's cleaned up image of the commander view. It also seems like it would take a bit of time or even take reworking of maps to fix. I would hope they can implement something like that, but they definitely have more important issues to attend to.

    I also like the idea for structures having more of an outline for the commander.
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Making the walls black on the back side isn't that easy. But having an (always visible) outline on all "invisible" buildings / players sounds like an easy change.
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    It is not 'black' on the back walls, but rather, black in the negative space where you are outside the level.

    So it sort of 'caps' that space, so you can't see through the walls.

    I think it outlines things a lot better for the comm...

    Alien swarm is a great example:

    <img src="http://www.artificialaiming.net/sshots/FW3-AlienSwarm-SShot010.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yeah, but you can't compare the engines. Have you tried to switch to 1st person in Alien Swarm? There is no ceiling.
    NS2 works completely different. You can't easily say: This is outside and this is inside the map.
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  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    edited August 2012
    Its mainly a thing up to the mapper. You already have to tie everything you dont want the commander to see into a group. Just create a black face to seal the top. Exactly like in the alien swarm example, the top face just has a pure black texture assigned to it. Could even make a new entity/group for it so its only visible for the commander. Then make the edges highlighted (like in alienvision), and turn the highlight off in the edges that are welded to other edges within the group.

    No idea how feasible the edge highlight would be, but creating a face to seal the top like that is entirely possible, and very easy even. Naturally a little bit more work for the mapper though, but i dont think its that bad.

    @_Necro_

    The way maps are constructed in alien swarm isnt actually much different to what the commanderview sees in ns2. They both leave out the ceiling, in ns2 you have to specify exactly what to leave out, in alien swarm you just dont create it because theres no fps players.
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    Surely NS2 does it by just creating a brush that basically says 'display everything within this to the commander'? Obviously you can tell I am not a programmer, but I imagine it is like this...

    Anyhow.. I would be surprised if this has not been taken into consideration, being that it is an rts/fps game.

    It has nothing to do with the engine.... It is like the fps aspect, but then having holes in the ceiling and calling that 'acceptable'...
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  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1958062:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:06 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 6 2012, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely NS2 does it by just creating a brush that basically says 'display everything within this to the commander'? Obviously you can tell I am not a programmer, but I imagine it is like this...

    Anyhow.. I would be surprised if this has not been taken into consideration, being that it is an rts/fps game.

    It has nothing to do with the engine.... It is like the fps aspect, but then having holes in the ceiling and calling that 'acceptable'...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Its done with CommanderInvisible group, you tie every prop and face that you dont want the commander to see into it. So you go in and select the ceiling etc. and they are invisible for the commander. The hole created is easily fixed by adding a extra face on the place where you slice the ceiling off. Could even go further and add something more interesting inside the walls to spruce the commanderview up a bit. Its entirely up to the mapper/level designer to add these things.

    I do also hope they add something to make it look better, it looks pretty bad when you just see through the back of every wall.
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