Grudgingly beginning to accept the power node as it is, the only really frustrating part is when a power-node is in a horrible position in the map, so there's not much the marines can do about it.
One thing I'd like to see though is for power-packs to be cheaper as they only power 1 structure; like 8 res for one, to complement the power node.
And yea I like the idea of a power node down not meaning 100% shutdown but much slower marine structure activity.
If you ever played NS1 and had a competitive bone in your body, you would know that this new addition of power nodes an infestation is a MAJOR hindrance to strategy. The thing is power nodes are a ###### joke compared to how easy it is to spread infestation... But in general; both were bad ideas period. It throws any abstract tactical manner of the game out the window.
The great thing about NS1 was you weren't being limited to space. These infestations and power nodes limit your spacial abilities. There is NOTHING beneficial to either side about adding these two factors. All it's doing is dumbing down the game play. Imagine the possibilities each team would have if they removed infestation and power nodes. The game would improve so much without the hindrance of that ridiculous extra step, and how obnoxious is it that the entire game is so reliant on such a fragile POS power node.
I'm a little surprised by some of the very critical posts regarding power nodes on this thread. I gained access to the beta recently and played about 10 hours of the game (mostly as a marine commander) and I don't see any problem with them. The only unintuitive thing about them is that they can only be repaired with a welder, it took me a little while to get.
I'm more an rts player than an fps player and to me the power nodes mechanic makes perfect sense, in many rts you can't build <i>anywhere</i> on the map, you need a first structure to expand your "territory" to an area before to build. The power nodes just represent that and I think it should be clear to anyone who played an rts before. Some are arguing that they are an obstacle to strategy and tactic which is just wrong in my opinion. Constraints don't reduce strategic possibilities, they add a new level of depth most of the time.
It would be like a SC2 protoss player complaining about how lame it is to have to build pylons. This constraint (I have to build a pylon before anything else) adds a lot of strategic value and interest to the race and I don't think anyone would ask for it to be removed. These complaints looks like "fps players" complaints, as an rts player the power nodes mechanic looks completely fine to me.
Also as someone pointed out, the aliens attacking the power node instead of other structures is actualy a blessing in desguise for the marines. It's just a waste of time to take out a free structure.
I even think that there is not enough incentive to build power nodes everywhere. Most of the time the marines just skip the power nodes in corridors or other places without extractors. This is mostly because the defaut setting for a room is "lights on". I think it should be "lights off". As long as there is no power node, the room should be completely dark, building a power node would put the lights on and destoying it would bring the red emergency lights. This way there would be an incentive for marines to build powers nodes everywhere and it would prevent some areas to be costantly lit up. I always found weird that the hive room was always lit up, it doesn't make much sense. Besides it would give a more gripping feel to the first minutes of the game as the marines try to restore power everywhere to garanty their safety.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be like a SC2 protoss player complaining about how lame it is to have to build pylons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the correct analogy would be if there was a bunch of neutral pylons on the map, and that the normal pylons were very expensive. These neutral pylons would power a rectangular area on the map. You can imagine how it could be problematic to power correctly high grounds and non-rectangular geometry.
You can imagine how it would constrain mappers.
In addition pylons also provide supply in starcraft. The maps are also pretty much 2D, natural selection maps can have more complex geometry. You can try to imagine how some of areas of NS1 maps would work with power nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1957569:date=Aug 5 2012, 05:45 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 5 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, the correct analogy would be if there was a bunch of neutral pylons on the map, and that the normal pylons were very expensive. These neutral pylons would power a rectangular area on the map. You can imagine how it could be problematic to power correctly high grounds and non-rectangular geometry.
You can imagine how it would constrain mappers.
In addition pylons also provide supply in starcraft. The maps are also pretty much 2D, natural selection maps can have more complex geometry. You can try to imagine how some of areas of NS1 maps would work with power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your point.
I understand that there might be problems when it comes to know which power node powers what and where, I still think they are a valid idea and a plus to the gameplay. That they need balance or tweaking is another matter, this thread is about removing them and I oppose that.
@Archam I would agree that the concept of power-nodes is not hard to understand. It's pretty much like pylons (exept you don't always know how big the area is they are powering) like you said.
The problem is, that Charlie himself said that the design-principle should be: "FPS first, RTS second". As OP said, they consume a lot of FPS-time of the players that isn't much fun (destroying static objects). Before b215 they just got ignored once build, and marines build them quickly. Now they are much harder to rebuild again, which make them more important for aliens to destroy, which is problematic in my eyes.
Btw., having rooms "lights off" by default would make sense, but would also be bad from a fps-perspective. Fighting skulks in darkness is really hard and easily frustrating.
I personnally like the idea of the power nodes it adds a risk to expanding everythings going fine and your setting up a little forward base armory phase gate etc. suddenly BOOM darkness lerks are flying dropping gas everywhere theres skulks leaping in and out of Line of sight gorge spit coming from everywhere at once and an onos it does need to be balanced but it gives the aliens an advt. over the marines and it also makes you want to get them up asap so you dont lose the game and if you want to get rid of the power nodes youll have to get another use for thermal vision or get rid of it completely causing the marines to have to lose something for balance..flamethrower? beacon everyone back to base? GL?
<!--quoteo(post=1957595:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:40 AM:name=crypt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crypt @ Aug 5 2012, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Archam I would agree that the concept of power-nodes is not hard to understand. It's pretty much like pylons (exept you don't always know how big the area is they are powering) like you said.
The problem is, that Charlie himself said that the design-principle should be: "FPS first, RTS second". As OP said, they consume a lot of FPS-time of the players that isn't much fun (destroying static objects). Before b215 they just got ignored once build, and marines build them quickly. Now they are much harder to rebuild again, which make them more important for aliens to destroy, which is problematic in my eyes.
Btw., having rooms "lights off" by default would make sense, but would also be bad from a fps-perspective. Fighting skulks in darkness is really hard and easily frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps I'm biased here, I really like to play as a commander with living units and the rts part of the game was what really got me to pick it. I'll try to play more as a regular footman to get a better insight of the fps side of the coin.
I'd just like to chime in. It is a little hard to express the opinions of the entire playerbase when most are actually playing the game and doing their duty as a BETA tester :)
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
<!--quoteo(post=1957751:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:37 AM:name=TheTailsEffect)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheTailsEffect @ Aug 5 2012, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to chime in. It is a little hard to express the opinions of the entire playerbase when most are actually playing the game and doing their duty as a BETA tester :)
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
Personally I like them :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is PRECICELY the reason they should be removed, and or changed dramatically. Now a good comm goes WELDER first?! Are you kidding?! That's what we want; to play a game that forces a one way train of thought? I want a game that holds MANY paths and opens MANY strategies. The power nodes shouldn't hold so much importance over the game, that you HAVE to upgrade welders first. That is just absurd. I would love to go fast armor, weapons, or super fast phase gates for map control. But I can't, because power nodes hold TOO much importance over the game. Not upgrading welder first is so easily exploited. CHANGE.
Not to mention the amount of time consumption they involve. When we could be gaining more map control and getting more RTs, we can't because we're too busy REbuilding power nodes, building backup power nodes, and protecting power nodes. These things are ruining game mobility. The game should be about communication and taking action. Not power nodes and infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1957751:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:37 PM:name=TheTailsEffect)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheTailsEffect @ Aug 5 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to chime in. It is a little hard to express the opinions of the entire playerbase when most are actually playing the game and doing their duty as a BETA tester :)
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
Personally I like them :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) If you don't discuss your experience in testing a game, then you're not actually contributing to game development. Sure you have presence, and you contribute to the player base, but that does not a good playtester make. It's like being a security guard who stands at their post, but doesn't actively enforce anything.
2) The real issue is that you don't understand how tricky power nodes are to balance as well as some of the more experienced players whom you're arguing against, which is that power nodes reduce the number of meaningful choices that the commander and players have available to them. It's like playing an RPG where you start the game with a choice of many weapons, but unless you choose the hatchet, the grue will kill you right away. With less health and a longer repair time, it could become a meaningful option to attack a power node instead of a nearby extractor, but as long as lower health and a longer repair time will hurt the power-lost-in-base endgame, a balance between these two facets can never be achieved. That is why power nodes are broken, why changing numbers can't fix them, and thus why there is good reason to remove them from the game.
Then there's a bunch of other weird unintuitive details, such as dark areas giving an advantage to the alien team <b>despite UWE claiming that this is not the purpose of darkness in the game</b> yet aliens being unable to create darkness except where marines have expanded first - even in their own base where the defensive benefit is more prominent.
<!--quoteo(post=1956913:date=Aug 4 2012, 03:43 AM:name=[HEI]Spade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([HEI]Spade @ Aug 4 2012, 03:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1956913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think you have a good point here! Maybe let's try this in a build? I'll add that the lights will go down too to keep this great mechanic of darkness.
I totally agree with the power node mechanic! This is one of the cores of ns2, NOT NS1. STOP ALWAYS WILLING TO GET NS2 TO NS1! Of course this is dynamic! what about the lights going down? is it static? If you remove the lightingdynamic, what the point to have dynamic infestation, get it static... --" I'm just frustrated to see so many comments to get this game down to ns1...
And stop saying: "nobody use power packs, let's remove power nodes!", POWER PACKS EXIST IF YOU DON'T USE THEM, WELL IT'S YOUR PROBLEM...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(1) No one is saying to get NS2 to NS1. But if you make a change to a sequel to a game, you should be moving forward, not backward. (2) I love the lights; this is a fine concept, no one is contesting that power nodes shutting down the light is overpowered. We are contesting that power nodes hold too much control over marine structures, and that is solely the problem. My opinion is to remove them. (3) Dynamic: pertaining to or characterized by energy or effective action; vigorously active or forceful; energetic Building, maintaining a power node doesn't involve any dynamics. Yes, the lighting changes. KEWL. We like that. Leave it. Without power nodes; the game speed can ONLY increase. With power nodes; the game speed slows down. It requires more maintenance and more attention. This is a hindrance to all other aspects of the game. It makes any chance where the game could be more dynamic, very dull, inactive, and boring.
<!--quoteo(post=1957751:date=Aug 5 2012, 06:37 PM:name=TheTailsEffect)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheTailsEffect @ Aug 5 2012, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you elaborate on what you call "strategic depth" ?
For example do you mean it is subject to high level strategy features like mind games and meta-game shifts ?
<!--quoteo(post=1957830:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:47 PM:name=eclipszor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclipszor @ Aug 5 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, the lighting changes. KEWL. We like that. Leave it. Without power nodes; the game speed can ONLY increase. With power nodes; the game speed slows down. It requires more maintenance and more attention. This is a hindrance to all other aspects of the game. It makes any chance where the game could be more dynamic, very dull, inactive, and boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and your idea to replace power nodes is....? cause the main purpose of power nodes (imo)is to give the aliens and advt. if they take one down meaning marines need to keep it under good guard. esp. in main base otherwise they will be in pitch dark with aliens running around that doesnt sound dull inactive and boring if so i want to know what you generally do in games tomake that sound that way
<!--quoteo(post=1957832:date=Aug 5 2012, 03:51 PM:name=Xostean)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xostean @ Aug 5 2012, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->###### no dont remove power nodes, Its probably one of the best parts of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is, I can give you my word for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1957839:date=Aug 5 2012, 01:56 PM:name=Rtron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rtron @ Aug 5 2012, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and your idea to replace power nodes is....? cause the main purpose of power nodes (imo)is to give the aliens and advt. if they take one down meaning marines need to keep it under good guard. esp. in main base otherwise they will be in pitch dark with aliens running around that doesnt sound dull inactive and boring if so i want to know what you generally do in games tomake that sound that way<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought I made it clear that the lighting factor isn't the problem. The problem is the control they have over marine structures.
As far as suggestions, I think there are many posts even just in this thread that hold some good ideas. My opinion though? keep the creep and keep the light; remove the necessity for either to be in place for structures.
Also: Improve power nodes and cysts to give each side small advantages so they aren't useless. There are so many little buffs these things could implement. I just don't think they should effect structure functionality at all.
Apparently there is only suppose to be 1 symmetrical feature in this game and that is the commanders ... yet for some reason the devs thought that infestation needed a symmetrical counterpart aka. the powernode system.
What is the purpose of powernodes anyway ? Dynamic lighting ? Infestation could have easily been tied to this feature, just turn the lights off where ever infestation is. Prevent marines from building where aliens control ? Marines already have to destroy infestation in order to build Give aliens a weak spot to take out entrenched positions ? Sentries are already so weak that they no longer require a weak point
Im constantly seeing people attack powernodes rather than a phase gate, powernodes instead of infantry portals, powernodes instead of res towers .... how is this strategic play ? its moronic play. That powernode gives the marine comm time to see whats going on and then recycle that res tower, that powernode makes you a sitting duck on the wall, that powernode is taking away DPS which would otherwise be on that phasegate.
i dont even waste my time with powernodes anymore, the time spent killing one is time lost killing RT's/marines. I dont even bother with the powernode in marine base anymore either, i rather go after the IP's
^That situation right there is unique, It is the only game i have ever been able to truely feel like im f*cked and can scream "There coming out of the walls! There coming out of the god damn wall!" and feel legitimate about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1957852:date=Aug 5 2012, 02:15 PM:name=eclipszor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eclipszor @ Aug 5 2012, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought I made it clear that the lighting factor isn't the problem. The problem is the control they have over marine structures.
As far as suggestions, I think there are many posts even just in this thread that hold some good ideas. My opinion though? keep the creep and keep the light; remove the necessity for either to be in place for structures.
Also: Improve power nodes and cysts to give each side small advantages so they aren't useless. There are so many little buffs these things could implement. I just don't think they should effect structure functionality at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
darkness is a good idea for the aliens it gives a use for thermal vision besides. and sense its a POWER node youd think it would have more to power than lights but the cysts and the power node do need to be buffed
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited August 2012
I don't really see power nodes having a large impact on strategic depth either way. In NS1, you could be sneaky PGs and in NS2, you can build sneaky PGs. The difference is that now the cost is a bit more explicit in requiring either you a) risk giving up your position by building the powernode or b) increase the cost by dropping the powerpack. As such, I think its a totally valid way to incorporate a core RTS concept (territory control) in a manner that minimally impacts the FPS portion of the game.
Also, if we're going to single out NS2 changes that really hamper strategic gameplay, then I'd say that tying command stations to tech nodes would be a more worthy target (I miss my ninja CCs).
Yeah, I'm with scardy bob here. I don't think power nodes are that impactful either way. I'd say their biggest impact on the game is later on when aliens are trying to break into a marine base with a phase gate or IPs. Attacking the power node is usually the best strategy in these situations.
The power node is meaningless for ninja phase gates -- just drop a power pack with the phasegate.
The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.
Though you can't really untie CCs from tech points at this point. Jetpacks are somewhat balanced around forcing marines to take a second tech point. Allowing marines to build a second CC right next to the first would trivialize the entire two CC requirement for higher tech.
Someone suggested making the Command Station give it's own power source. Anything within the Command Station's radius has limited power on it's own that switches on when the Power Node nearby gets destroyed and it will only last long enough for marines to get back in control. So you put the essentials within the Command Station's radius. Now the only advantage Aliens can get when destroying a power node is darkness and a few unpowered buildings. It's a pretty cool idea right :D Only problem I saw is the Aliens will try to hit the Comm Station more often and that's GG without it.
<!--quoteo(post=1957985:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 5 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was surprised nobody had mentioned this until now! I want this so badly!! Darkness is badass, plus Marine comms will be able to clearly see which areas need to be worked on.
<!--quoteo(post=1957981:date=Aug 6 2012, 04:14 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Aug 6 2012, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As such, I think its a totally valid way to incorporate a core RTS concept (territory control) in a manner that minimally impacts the FPS portion of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where you get this idea that this kind of mechanics are core concept is RTS, sc1:bw (still the most successful rts) doesn't have any of this and sc2 creep brings all kind of problems, very similar to the ones NS2 has (had?) with infestation.
Units give you map control in starcraft. Muta give you map control in ZvT, bio or vultures/mines gives you map control in TvZ, dragoons in TvP. Threatening a counter attack, and generally having your units in a smart position on the map gives you map control.
<!--quoteo(post=1957985:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 5 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called common sense, researching welders does NOT take that long and in the long run saves you a lot of trouble, stops aliens zerging your base in the early stages of the game. Longer games are fun, if you just rush each others spawn and kill the Hive/CS it's not fun - Thus Welders negate this. Also it's pretty much an incentive for you to use welders and power nodes together.
I'm just putting forward an opinion based on what I've seen in the long games I've played. I've also seen games where marines suck and as a result aliens simply waltz on in and destroy the power core which is pretty much an instant defeat.
When I say strategic depth, I mean it adds another way to play the game (I.e Aliens knock out power, to disable structures instead of destroying them outright) It allows Aliens to make the map their own and turn the tides of the match along with Dynamic Infestation. You can whine about it all you want, about how you think it adds nothing, how about you go look up the meaning of 'depth' in reference to games.
Actually you don't need to be on the forums to help development. If you somehow encounter a fatal system error in relation to running NS2, it allows you to send a report to UWE allowing them to start working on the problem. (Admittedly it's not that big of a contribution but still!)
The GameJoin Date: 2012-08-06Member: 154872Members
I like power-nodes as an aesthetic and a cool feature of the game, however as many have said, their place in the game is strange at best.
Someone suggested (can't remember who sorry) that they power the lights only, to me this seems like a great idea since they don't shut off marine structures and make them essential to destroy in stalemate games, but keeping them running is advantageous to marines to stay in the light, where aliens would have a good incentive to destroy them in order to give them an advantage. And by shut the lights off I mean shut them right off, not the red light which is better suited to the 40%-0% hp part where the node is damaged.
I don't even think it would cause an imbalance issue since both sides gain an advantage when lights are on/off, however I would argue that it be best that Nodes are pre-built at the start of the match except in alien start, marines can 'weld' them to increase armor and to balance that nerf their base HP. Another nice possibility to this would be to make it difficult to build/repair a node that is covered in infestation, perhaps doing so would only keep the lights at the red light stage?
people like to complain that destroying the power node at base is an instant win for the aliens, forgetting about distress beacon.
That being said, it would be nice for the initial power node to be more powerful than the others (more armor etc), as well as pop up a warning on marines huds saying "core power node under attack" or something
<!--quoteo(post=1957985:date=Aug 5 2012, 09:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 5 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the way it used to be. Skulks would end up wasting time clearing them out instead of harassing the Marines. And if done right you severaly blocked all Marine advances since they HAD to rebuild the powernode first, solidifying the Alien control of all parts of the map. Now Marines are incentivized to not expand into territory they can't hold.
Not sure if the current implementation is "better" strictly speaking. Because there are times I really want to prematurely darken a room before the Marines make their push in. But... eh, iunno. It giving Aliens a severe bonus mid-game to just munch half the map and giving a false sub-par goal for noob Skulks are serious detractors.
Comments
One thing I'd like to see though is for power-packs to be cheaper as they only power 1 structure; like 8 res for one, to complement the power node.
And yea I like the idea of a power node down not meaning 100% shutdown but much slower marine structure activity.
The great thing about NS1 was you weren't being limited to space. These infestations and power nodes limit your spacial abilities. There is NOTHING beneficial to either side about adding these two factors. All it's doing is dumbing down the game play. Imagine the possibilities each team would have if they removed infestation and power nodes. The game would improve so much without the hindrance of that ridiculous extra step, and how obnoxious is it that the entire game is so reliant on such a fragile POS power node.
I gained access to the beta recently and played about 10 hours of the game (mostly as a marine commander) and I don't see any problem with them. The only unintuitive thing about them is that they can only be repaired with a welder, it took me a little while to get.
I'm more an rts player than an fps player and to me the power nodes mechanic makes perfect sense, in many rts you can't build <i>anywhere</i> on the map, you need a first structure to expand your "territory" to an area before to build. The power nodes just represent that and I think it should be clear to anyone who played an rts before.
Some are arguing that they are an obstacle to strategy and tactic which is just wrong in my opinion. Constraints don't reduce strategic possibilities, they add a new level of depth most of the time.
It would be like a SC2 protoss player complaining about how lame it is to have to build pylons. This constraint (I have to build a pylon before anything else) adds a lot of strategic value and interest to the race and I don't think anyone would ask for it to be removed.
These complaints looks like "fps players" complaints, as an rts player the power nodes mechanic looks completely fine to me.
Also as someone pointed out, the aliens attacking the power node instead of other structures is actualy a blessing in desguise for the marines. It's just a waste of time to take out a free structure.
I even think that there is not enough incentive to build power nodes everywhere. Most of the time the marines just skip the power nodes in corridors or other places without extractors. This is mostly because the defaut setting for a room is "lights on". I think it should be "lights off". As long as there is no power node, the room should be completely dark, building a power node would put the lights on and destoying it would bring the red emergency lights.
This way there would be an incentive for marines to build powers nodes everywhere and it would prevent some areas to be costantly lit up. I always found weird that the hive room was always lit up, it doesn't make much sense. Besides it would give a more gripping feel to the first minutes of the game as the marines try to restore power everywhere to garanty their safety.
No, the correct analogy would be if there was a bunch of neutral pylons on the map, and that the normal pylons were very expensive. These neutral pylons would power a rectangular area on the map. You can imagine how it could be problematic to power correctly high grounds and non-rectangular geometry.
You can imagine how it would constrain mappers.
In addition pylons also provide supply in starcraft. The maps are also pretty much 2D, natural selection maps can have more complex geometry. You can try to imagine how some of areas of NS1 maps would work with power nodes.
You can imagine how it would constrain mappers.
In addition pylons also provide supply in starcraft. The maps are also pretty much 2D, natural selection maps can have more complex geometry. You can try to imagine how some of areas of NS1 maps would work with power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your point.
I understand that there might be problems when it comes to know which power node powers what and where, I still think they are a valid idea and a plus to the gameplay. That they need balance or tweaking is another matter, this thread is about removing them and I oppose that.
I would agree that the concept of power-nodes is not hard to understand. It's pretty much like pylons (exept you don't always know how big the area is they are powering) like you said.
The problem is, that Charlie himself said that the design-principle should be: "FPS first, RTS second". As OP said, they consume a lot of FPS-time of the players that isn't much fun (destroying static objects). Before b215 they just got ignored once build, and marines build them quickly. Now they are much harder to rebuild again, which make them more important for aliens to destroy, which is problematic in my eyes.
Btw., having rooms "lights off" by default would make sense, but would also be bad from a fps-perspective. Fighting skulks in darkness is really hard and easily frustrating.
I would agree that the concept of power-nodes is not hard to understand. It's pretty much like pylons (exept you don't always know how big the area is they are powering) like you said.
The problem is, that Charlie himself said that the design-principle should be: "FPS first, RTS second". As OP said, they consume a lot of FPS-time of the players that isn't much fun (destroying static objects). Before b215 they just got ignored once build, and marines build them quickly. Now they are much harder to rebuild again, which make them more important for aliens to destroy, which is problematic in my eyes.
Btw., having rooms "lights off" by default would make sense, but would also be bad from a fps-perspective. Fighting skulks in darkness is really hard and easily frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps I'm biased here, I really like to play as a commander with living units and the rts part of the game was what really got me to pick it. I'll try to play more as a regular footman to get a better insight of the fps side of the coin.
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
Personally I like them :-)
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
Personally I like them :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is PRECICELY the reason they should be removed, and or changed dramatically. Now a good comm goes WELDER first?! Are you kidding?! That's what we want; to play a game that forces a one way train of thought? I want a game that holds MANY paths and opens MANY strategies. The power nodes shouldn't hold so much importance over the game, that you HAVE to upgrade welders first. That is just absurd. I would love to go fast armor, weapons, or super fast phase gates for map control. But I can't, because power nodes hold TOO much importance over the game. Not upgrading welder first is so easily exploited. CHANGE.
Not to mention the amount of time consumption they involve. When we could be gaining more map control and getting more RTs, we can't because we're too busy REbuilding power nodes, building backup power nodes, and protecting power nodes. These things are ruining game mobility. The game should be about communication and taking action. Not power nodes and infestation.
However, in most of the games I've played (The long hour games) Power Nodes seem to add a sense of strategic depth to the gameplay much like Infestation. If you have a good Comm, he will research welders first.
Welders are there as an incentive and everyone should have one, to not only prevent an early base rush that is unfixable but to weld armor now.
In long games, Marines make a forward base and then power goes out, infestation takes over, Marines bring power back up and remove Cysts, it adds depth whether you understand that or not is not my problem. It makes teamplay a much larger incentive.
Personally I like them :-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) If you don't discuss your experience in testing a game, then you're not actually contributing to game development. Sure you have presence, and you contribute to the player base, but that does not a good playtester make. It's like being a security guard who stands at their post, but doesn't actively enforce anything.
2) The real issue is that you don't understand how tricky power nodes are to balance as well as some of the more experienced players whom you're arguing against, which is that power nodes reduce the number of meaningful choices that the commander and players have available to them. It's like playing an RPG where you start the game with a choice of many weapons, but unless you choose the hatchet, the grue will kill you right away. With less health and a longer repair time, it could become a meaningful option to attack a power node instead of a nearby extractor, but as long as lower health and a longer repair time will hurt the power-lost-in-base endgame, a balance between these two facets can never be achieved. That is why power nodes are broken, why changing numbers can't fix them, and thus why there is good reason to remove them from the game.
Then there's a bunch of other weird unintuitive details, such as dark areas giving an advantage to the alien team <b>despite UWE claiming that this is not the purpose of darkness in the game</b> yet aliens being unable to create darkness except where marines have expanded first - even in their own base where the defensive benefit is more prominent.
I think you have a good point here! Maybe let's try this in a build? I'll add that the lights will go down too to keep this great mechanic of darkness.
I totally agree with the power node mechanic! This is one of the cores of ns2, NOT NS1. STOP ALWAYS WILLING TO GET NS2 TO NS1! Of course this is dynamic! what about the lights going down? is it static? If you remove the lightingdynamic, what the point to have dynamic infestation, get it static... --" I'm just frustrated to see so many comments to get this game down to ns1...
And stop saying: "nobody use power packs, let's remove power nodes!", POWER PACKS EXIST IF YOU DON'T USE THEM, WELL IT'S YOUR PROBLEM...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(1) No one is saying to get NS2 to NS1. But if you make a change to a sequel to a game, you should be moving forward, not backward.
(2) I love the lights; this is a fine concept, no one is contesting that power nodes shutting down the light is overpowered. We are contesting that power nodes hold too much control over marine structures, and that is solely the problem. My opinion is to remove them.
(3) Dynamic: pertaining to or characterized by energy or effective action; vigorously active or forceful; energetic
Building, maintaining a power node doesn't involve any dynamics. Yes, the lighting changes. KEWL. We like that. Leave it. Without power nodes; the game speed can ONLY increase. With power nodes; the game speed slows down. It requires more maintenance and more attention. This is a hindrance to all other aspects of the game. It makes any chance where the game could be more dynamic, very dull, inactive, and boring.
Could you elaborate on what you call "strategic depth" ?
For example do you mean it is subject to high level strategy features like mind games and meta-game shifts ?
and your idea to replace power nodes is....? cause the main purpose of power nodes (imo)is to give the aliens and advt. if they take one down meaning marines need to keep it under good guard. esp. in main base otherwise they will be in pitch dark with aliens running around that doesnt sound dull inactive and boring if so i want to know what you generally do in games tomake that sound that way
No one is, I can give you my word for it.
I thought I made it clear that the lighting factor isn't the problem. The problem is the control they have over marine structures.
As far as suggestions, I think there are many posts even just in this thread that hold some good ideas. My opinion though? keep the creep and keep the light; remove the necessity for either to be in place for structures.
Also: Improve power nodes and cysts to give each side small advantages so they aren't useless. There are so many little buffs these things could implement. I just don't think they should effect structure functionality at all.
What is the purpose of powernodes anyway ?
Dynamic lighting ? Infestation could have easily been tied to this feature, just turn the lights off where ever infestation is.
Prevent marines from building where aliens control ? Marines already have to destroy infestation in order to build
Give aliens a weak spot to take out entrenched positions ? Sentries are already so weak that they no longer require a weak point
Im constantly seeing people attack powernodes rather than a phase gate, powernodes instead of infantry portals, powernodes instead of res towers .... how is this strategic play ? its moronic play. That powernode gives the marine comm time to see whats going on and then recycle that res tower, that powernode makes you a sitting duck on the wall, that powernode is taking away DPS which would otherwise be on that phasegate.
i dont even waste my time with powernodes anymore, the time spent killing one is time lost killing RT's/marines. I dont even bother with the powernode in marine base anymore either, i rather go after the IP's
^That situation right there is unique, It is the only game i have ever been able to truely feel like im f*cked and can scream "There coming out of the walls! There coming out of the god damn wall!" and feel legitimate about it.
So i state again, F*ck no dont remove power nodes
As far as suggestions, I think there are many posts even just in this thread that hold some good ideas. My opinion though? keep the creep and keep the light; remove the necessity for either to be in place for structures.
Also: Improve power nodes and cysts to give each side small advantages so they aren't useless. There are so many little buffs these things could implement. I just don't think they should effect structure functionality at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
darkness is a good idea for the aliens it gives a use for thermal vision besides. and sense its a POWER node youd think it would have more to power than lights but the cysts and the power node do need to be buffed
Also, if we're going to single out NS2 changes that really hamper strategic gameplay, then I'd say that tying command stations to tech nodes would be a more worthy target (I miss my ninja CCs).
The power node is meaningless for ninja phase gates -- just drop a power pack with the phasegate.
The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.
Though you can't really untie CCs from tech points at this point. Jetpacks are somewhat balanced around forcing marines to take a second tech point. Allowing marines to build a second CC right next to the first would trivialize the entire two CC requirement for higher tech.
<!--quoteo(post=1957985:date=Aug 5 2012, 08:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 5 2012, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing I dislike the most about the current implementation of the powernodes is that that they're unkillable before marines expand to an area. I think it would be better if they started the map fully build. This allows aliens to kill them defensively if they wish to get the lighting advantage or preemptively to slow marine expansion to a strategic tech point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was surprised nobody had mentioned this until now! I want this so badly!! Darkness is badass, plus Marine comms will be able to clearly see which areas need to be worked on.
I don't know where you get this idea that this kind of mechanics are core concept is RTS, sc1:bw (still the most successful rts) doesn't have any of this and sc2 creep brings all kind of problems, very similar to the ones NS2 has (had?) with infestation.
Units give you map control in starcraft. Muta give you map control in ZvT, bio or vultures/mines gives you map control in TvZ, dragoons in TvP. Threatening a counter attack, and generally having your units in a smart position on the map gives you map control.
Im with you on that
I'm just putting forward an opinion based on what I've seen in the long games I've played. I've also seen games where marines suck and as a result aliens simply waltz on in and destroy the power core which is pretty much an instant defeat.
When I say strategic depth, I mean it adds another way to play the game (I.e Aliens knock out power, to disable structures instead of destroying them outright) It allows Aliens to make the map their own and turn the tides of the match along with Dynamic Infestation. You can whine about it all you want, about how you think it adds nothing, how about you go look up the meaning of 'depth' in reference to games.
Actually you don't need to be on the forums to help development. If you somehow encounter a fatal system error in relation to running NS2, it allows you to send a report to UWE allowing them to start working on the problem. (Admittedly it's not that big of a contribution but still!)
-Tails-
Someone suggested (can't remember who sorry) that they power the lights only, to me this seems like a great idea since they don't shut off marine structures and make them essential to destroy in stalemate games, but keeping them running is advantageous to marines to stay in the light, where aliens would have a good incentive to destroy them in order to give them an advantage. And by shut the lights off I mean shut them right off, not the red light which is better suited to the 40%-0% hp part where the node is damaged.
I don't even think it would cause an imbalance issue since both sides gain an advantage when lights are on/off, however I would argue that it be best that Nodes are pre-built at the start of the match except in alien start, marines can 'weld' them to increase armor and to balance that nerf their base HP. Another nice possibility to this would be to make it difficult to build/repair a node that is covered in infestation, perhaps doing so would only keep the lights at the red light stage?
That being said, it would be nice for the initial power node to be more powerful than the others (more armor etc), as well as pop up a warning on marines huds saying "core power node under attack" or something
That's the way it used to be. Skulks would end up wasting time clearing them out instead of harassing the Marines. And if done right you severaly blocked all Marine advances since they HAD to rebuild the powernode first, solidifying the Alien control of all parts of the map. Now Marines are incentivized to not expand into territory they can't hold.
Not sure if the current implementation is "better" strictly speaking. Because there are times I really want to prematurely darken a room before the Marines make their push in. But... eh, iunno. It giving Aliens a severe bonus mid-game to just munch half the map and giving a false sub-par goal for noob Skulks are serious detractors.